Monogatari Series Second Season - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll (Hitagi End V)

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I don't see it like that. This reminds me of Gundam Seed when people complain we don't see Lacus and Kira making out and act like horny teenagers onscreen. This isn't like western TV shows were couples have to prove they are in love by flurting onscreen all the time. You don't see them together not because they don't want to be, but because it is not relevant to the story.

A couple's business is private. This is common in anime, and NOT in anyway implying their relationship is in trouble.

In General, it is common in real life in Japan. Public affection is looked down upon there. If a couple want to perform "Marital Duties", they often have to go to a love hotel. Even a small sigh of "Marital Duties" will spread across the neighborhood, rumors and avoidance most often are the usual consequences resulting in the couple becoming outcasts. It is said to be shameful and impure for some reason, procreating in my opinion isn't shameful or impure rather it is the opposite but we pretty much accept Japan's culture of that. So just expanding what is said from your quote so to inform anyone still unaware of it.

This light Novel still have some realistic properties to it.

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

Even though it is comfirmed that they're the official couple, the fact that Araragi and Hitag did not have a single dialoque or appeared in the same scene in this season (Therefore no chemistry, no development, nothing) really make me feel their love is moving to the Informed Relationship catergories.

They are an informed relationship, even in the light novel until this arc, not much is known. They did have that particular date with Hitagi's father approving him and they kiss while looking at the stars. During that time, Hitagi shown one of the few weak moments we see from her, she tells Araragi that she is still has fear or is scared of progressing towards more intimate development due to being almost raped when she was younger. She said that one day she will be ready and they will do so when it comes, but not now. This story is within the time where Hitagi and Araragi just becomes a couple, it may seem long but they are not a couple that been together for so long.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Also note that Hitagi's father has visited Araragi's home as a guest and met his parents at newyears. I might be mistaken, but I believe that's as clear a sign as any that Hitagi and Araragi are not just a couple, but that the plans are in motion for the two families to get to know one another better.

In short, the off-hand comment about the parents meeting is actually a clearer sign of relationship growth than any onscreen flirting.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

However...

...this season (25 episodes and around 4, 5 novels) is damn long already for the official couple not having any screentime together, however short it is. Araragi is still so busy molesting loli it seems.

I'd also like to point out that each novel only covers a couple of days, yet overall the story has progressed by at least 6 months (this season). It's not like a western TV show that basically shows multiple days per episode, and then next week's episode is just the next week, giving you an overall idea of what happens nearly every other day for a year.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by -Sho-

Damn Kaiki better not die. I didn't really keep my interest until this arc.

Oddly feeling the opposite. Kaiki getting killed might actually allow me to keep interest in this arc .

[DGDCOne]

Damn the end of episode is creepy after Nadeko can tell Kaiki is deceiving her.

[Rogue66]

Dam cant wait to see what happens.

That last line was just scary , "so MR. Kaiki, you're going to deceive me as well"

Kaiki really underestimated her , wonder how he'll get out of his.

[Elestia]

I do have to hand it how they ended Ononoki's revelation that Kaiki is actually a nice guy who plays the role of a villain. The end quote before Kaiki enacts his plan to deceive Nadeko summarizes his nature quite nicely. Although we will see if Kaiki's deception was indeed seen through by Nadeko and end up in failure as Ononoki and Gaen claims when he does "act unlike himself", or will it turn out as Kaiki planned all along.

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by Rogue66

Dam cant wait to see what happens.

That last line was just scary , "so MR. Kaiki, you're going to deceive me as well"

Kaiki really underestimated her , wonder how he'll get out of his.

Like everyone else had already... even Gaén that knows everything thought that this course of events was extremely unlikely.

[Anime299]

Even now, I'm not sure I trust Kalki's storytelling. He mused to himself while talking to Hitagi that the closet wasn't a big deal, and getting back to his apartment and finding the note seemed more important that wondering about the importance of what he saw in that closet. He may be setting the whole story up, including Nadeko's response, to make himself look better. He's an adult, talking to a saki-swigging dillusional teenager. If he can handle Hitagi, Nadeko shouldn't be a problem. The issue is, Araragi/Hitagi - dead or alive? Do we even seen them by the end of the episode. One, thing I must have missed. When Aragai came back to help Tsubasa, be was beat up and carrying that big sword, after being somewhere and doing some serious fighting. Where did that fighting happen? Did I miss an episode? ehhhhhhhhhh??????????

[Raymondjram]

Spoiler for Possible end of Koimonogatari?:

I feel that Nadeko will harm Kaiki with her power over her snakes but not kill him. And if he reveals what he saw in her closet (I guess it is manga as she discussed about it with Koyomi before), she will get more upset and actually allow Kaiki to get close enough to revert her to a human. How he will get the talisman out is anybody's guess! Maybe he will put a spell on her somehow.

[Altima of the Gates]

Shaft's timming is very messy this season. Kabuki should have had at least one more episode, and you could really tell they tried to drag this arc as much as possible. They should just fly through the dialogue with Hanekawa, there're nothing important there, the only thing I see as worth mentioning is just the fact that Meme has no relatives. Unless you're Hanekawa's fan, it did not worth the screentime it is given.

Despite missing some important monologues in Neko White, Kabuki, and Otori, Shaft has been pretty faithful honestly. As for the Hanekawa parts, they DID fly through them, plus she gave us something to think about that ties into what we already watched in other seasons. It wasn't like there was a whole episode of her and Kaiki talking(it was about 9 minutes counting both eps she was in, and then she was gone, Hitagi's conversations were stretched out a lot more) they got right down to business with Hanekawa's objective viewpoint of Nadeko and trading info. If we're honest here, it wrapped up the facts much more cleanly than if say, Araragi was talking with Kaiki.

In a sense I think their relationship has reached a mark when nothing much could be built upon anymore (by the writer). "Nothing is more boring that a story about a successful love" - quoted Tatami Galaxy.


However...

...this season (25 episodes and around 4, 5 novels) is damn long already for the official couple not having any screentime together, however short it is. Araragi is still so busy molesting loli it seems.

I think that it is because we already have had sufficient growth to the relationship in Bake and Nise. Besides, there is much more to this story than just the two of them seeing as the writer's style doesn't centralize the focus of the plot on the heroine all the time. Further that quote is purely a fallacy. What a successful relationship doesn't need is to be validated at every turn, especially when it isn't pertinent to the current narrative. This season is more about the characters' personal growth and catharsis, as well as the trials to come. As for your comment about the lolis, well let's be honest, the relationships in this series are rooted in the abnormal to put it mildly, even Araragi's and Hitagi's.

And as Valiant said, the second episode of this arc showed their parents meeting together almost as if it was a gathering of in-laws, meaning that the relationship looks to be progressing toward the engagement stage down the road if the family is getting along famously. You don't have meetings like that unless its serious. Though I can understand if you wanted some solid "proof" as it were.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

They should just fly through the dialogue with Hanekawa, there're nothing important there, the only thing I see as worth mentioning is just the fact that Meme has no relatives. Unless you're Hanekawa's fan, it did not worth the screentime it is given.

There is also the scene where Hanekawa says she is trying to deceive Gaen by pretending to be abroad. And the scene where Hanekawa analyzes Nadeko and demonstrates more insight about her than any other character. And we need to be shown the noble spirit of Hanekawa who would like to save even Nadeko. And the whole interaction shows how Hanekawa was able to overpower even Kaiki, the man who put Senjougahara in her place. Lastly, Hanekawa put the focus back on Nadeko's closet.

So no, Hanekawa is always needed.

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

There is also the scene where Hanekawa says she is trying to deceive Gaen by pretending to be abroad. And the scene where Hanekawa analyzes Nadeko and demonstrates more insight about her than any other character. And we need to be shown the noble spirit of Hanekawa who would like to save even Nadeko. And the whole interaction shows how Hanekawa was able to overpower even Kaiki, the man who put Senjougahara in her place. Lastly, Hanekawa put the focus back on Nadeko's closet.

So no, Hanekawa is always needed.

So it's build up for the third season? Nevertheless, Kaiki's second visit, and a lot of the dialogue over the phone felt unnecessary to me. Of course, the writer might pull another surprise as in Nadeko Medusa's finale, though novel from anime work differently.

[Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

There is also the scene where Hanekawa says she is trying to deceive Gaen by pretending to be abroad. And the scene where Hanekawa analyzes Nadeko and demonstrates more insight about her than any other character. And we need to be shown the noble spirit of Hanekawa who would like to save even Nadeko. And the whole interaction shows how Hanekawa was able to overpower even Kaiki, the man who put Senjougahara in her place. Lastly, Hanekawa put the focus back on Nadeko's closet.

So no, Hanekawa is always needed.

To be fair Hanekawa knows Sengoku longer than Kaiki does, but yeah, that scene still shows how Kaiki's perception of Sengoku's character isn't as deep or objective as Hanekawa's is, and this is part of the reason why his lie doesn't seem to work on Sengoku. He started off good at judging Sengoku's character with things like noticing the way her eyes looked on her photos, or how she has her own way of trusting other people, but his perception on her character got duller as the story went on. He kind of stopped "digging up" her character after he concluded that Sengoku is a spoiled kid who isn't the sharpest tool in the shed (or as he thought in the episode, a wee bit smarter than a ladybug), and judging that time with the crushed cult, he has a habit of not taking people into account to the fullest degree when it comes to the effects of his methods. His heart can be in the right place more frequently than he's willing to acknowledge, but his detachment from other people makes it harder for him to judge the effects of his own actions on other people, or in this case, having enough foresight to think about a scenario where his plan won't gonna work.

Here he (and pretty much everyone else) assumed Sengoku wouldn't see trough his lies because she's a dumb kid, and unless he can keep his cool well enough to keep feeding her with lies convincingly, then he dug himself into a really deep hole. This is where Hanekawa has the upper hand compared to him in this situation: she has the intellect to judge people in an objective, deep manner, but her good, earnest nature prevents her from downplaying people and thus clouding her judgement, which is an advantege over Kaiki's detachment and Gaen's self-stroking ego.

As for her screentime being reasonable or not, I think it's pretty reasonable considering she's pretty much the most valuable ally Kaiki can get right now, and her screentime grants a good opportunity for the story to highlight both hers and Kaiki's character, and the difference between them at the same time. Her case is a bit more special for an arc's side character considering this is the first time she appeared since Neko:Shiro, and otherwise small things such as "someone saying they're happy doesn't mean they're happy" shows off well how much she learned from her lessons, and she being the opposite of Gaen gets further proven as well, with things like Kaiki's way of reacting to her catchprase.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

. Lastly, Hanekawa put the focus back on Nadeko's closet.

.

This. Her saying that while it might not be important to anyone else, its precious to her. Basically, an Achilles Heel. Something to care about for the person who doesn't genuinely care about much.

Then Ononoki's analysis that essentially Kaiki is compassionate and sympathetic to people, but has poor empathy, meaning that he lacks understanding of personal feelings, which is why he "failed" in the situation of Hitagi's mother. And it goes back to how Hitagi still blames herself despite probably understanding there was little she could do about her mother. He failed to understand those ties.

[HandofFate]

I liked the reveal about Hitagi's family with Kaiki's conversation near the end.

How he broke up Hitagi's family to save her since the mom was already broken.
Makes the scene in the airport so much better than it already was with him throwing the coffee in Hitagi's face when she suggested she even sell her body to pay him.

[Raymondjram]

Koimonogatari ended today. So we wait until Hanamonogatari (Suruga Devil) will be announced. But this story left a few loose strings. What will happen to Deisu Kaiki? Did he die? Will Nadeko reappear? And what about Ougi Oshino? I hope she reappears again, since she seems to be "friendly" with Koyomi. We may finally see who she really is.

[risingstar3110]

Finally finished watching this series. So was pretty shocked....But Kaiki actually is batman? 0_0

"He's the hero Senjougahara deserves, but not the one she needs right now. That's why he is chased out of town.

Because he can take it.

Because he's not Senjougahara 's hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight."

No wonder he was going for such extend during the bathroom scene trying to find an excuse to save her. And that bit when he splashed the coffee at her as well. And all of these looking down at her and trying to talk her down like she is a kid. And that weird behaviour of trying to avoid her, but ended up going all the way to Okinawa because he knew she will be there waiting for him

Wow, have a total different light on him