Tate no Yuusha/Shield Hero - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[Kairin]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Tate no Yuusha/Shield Hero, Episode 11.

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[Dengar]

It wasn't a bad episode. As a LN reader they covered all the important bits. I don't think anything important was left out. And I liked the sequence where he unlocked the Iron Maiden skill, but overall it leaves me with this weird feeling of disappointment that I can't quite explain.

[BWTraveller]

Well, they still need to work on improving their action in my opinion, but this was pretty fun either way. The iron maiden was pretty satisfactory to me in its presentation.

And while the three may say they "know it isn't a game" they kind of give away that this isn't really true. I've actually developed a bit of a theory for how all this is working though. Somehow actual records of the past Waves were transferred to the different worlds, and individuals who obtained them were inspired to make stories from them. Naofumi's world just made a book, but the other three had them made into games, each inevitably adding and subtracting aspects to make the game simpler or more enjoyable. While the three insist they know it's not their game, I'm pretty sure they still believe it's a perfect duplicate and ignore anything different from their memories. That's why in this episode each had a different concept of how to spawn the boss fight and continued to hammer away at their useless tasks while berating each other for doing the wrong thing.

In any case looks like we've got a real boss fight coming up, with this Glass lady one-hitting the creature that took everything out of Naofumi.

[FlareKnight]

Well things should get tricky from here on out. And all the more troublesome since everyone besides Naofumi isn't really pulling their weight. Without there being something weird going on all the heroes should be relatively capable. Possible the shield got extra stuff to make up for not having inherent offensive capabilities, but you'd think a sword, spear, and bow could do more than this. Not that they have any time to worry about that .

Not a good spot having another major threat drop in. All the more troublesome with this being someone who can talk and think. Getting through this isn't going to be easy. Naofumi will have to drag them all along.

[Ichinotachi]

Personally I have mixed feelings about this episode, yeah they really added everything needed to understand the situation, like the way Naofumi obtained the Iron Maiden but at the same time the action was average at best and it was a bit too fast. Overall I must say that this was a good episode that left everything that wasn't super important out and worked around the relevant parts of the story.

I like how every other hero is eating their own words, if it wasn't for naofumi they wouldn't be able to do jack shit. Raphtalia as always the best girl ever, Naofumi is showing a change in his personality too, he isn't the weak angry guy from early episodes and now he can at least leave his anger aside when is needed.

Now the real fight vs Glass is coming, loved her looks and her voice, pretty good job there.

[Kinematics]

It was interesting that all the other heroes were using lightning-based attacks.

Back in FFXI, there was a pretty strict hierarchy of elemental power. Lightning > Ice > Fire > Wind > Water > Earth. Most mages only ever used non-lightning when they got a new element of a higher tier (eg: Earth IV beat Lightning III), but at max level, it was just lightning, unless the monster had a strong resistance to lightning, in which case use ice.

This was always incredibly frustrating because there was a large amount of elementally-affecting gear in the game that was largely wasted on only ever using the same one or two elements of magic. And that's exactly what that sequence with the heroes' attacks reminded me of.

The first time the Spear Hero used the Lightning Spear attack (during the second Wave), I thought it was cool, but likely tied specifically to the spear. Now it seems like all the weapons achieved their "best" element, and never use anything else, and without considering (at the very least) that the monster might be resistant to lightning. Filo's wind attack took off a noticeable chunk of the monster's health, after lots of not-very-effective lightning attacks from the others.

Even worse is if they continue to level up and get other elements (Water II, for example), but continue to only use lightning because that's well-known as the 'best' element. So they keep using Lightning I until they pick up Lightning II, and don't bother getting the other elements since they're not going to use them anyway once they reach level cap. And now they're at a level where a Fire II or Wind II would be absolutely devastating, but don't actually have it.

The exception so far is Ren's fire attack, as that tore through the undead pirate captain in one strike.

[The Green One]

Well looks like the other Heroes couldn't do anything. Which isn't good as it looks like the fan chick is the true Boss Battle this time. Nafoumi and crew are already worn out from the previous battle. Lets see if the first season can close out strong.

[Kanon]

Naofumi should have brought the old lady with him, she would've been more useful than the other three heroes.

Naofumi not having played a game based on this world is turning out to be a good thing as he can offer a fresh perspective. Maybe after his lecture, the other heroes will stop relying on their game knowledge as well.

[Hakai]

Holy shit that was intense. After a few less eventful episodes this was really intense.

Naofumi's new move is sick as hell. I had to watch that scene again after finishing the episode.

Also I kinda like the Sword Hero dude.

[Twi]

Do they just save the animation budget on these wave battles?

Not that I'm complaining.

The three heroes were carrying their own weight, or at least Ren was. We saw him kill the skeleton, it just kept respawning. They just don't know what they needed to kill, because they thought they had the right target. Naofumi just didn't have the preconception of foreknowledge and looked at the shadow in time to see it move oddly.

As for the Dimensional Eater, they were doing jack-all to it as well. The fact that they didn't get behind the Tank when it used a Tank Buster-rank attack (which basically kills non-tanks in MMOs and even Tanks need a healer or mitigation) meant they were going to eat a lot of damage.

And remember, Naofumi's Curse Shield is something that's gives you great power at a great expense on top of adding the Dragon Core it adds the Dragon's rage against Ren to both Naofumi and Filo too since she ate a core.

The only one we can't defend here is Spear, because his pride was in the way when the other two at least trying before getting called out.

What's more worrying is that what was a Raid Boss got one-shot by the newcomer and she's looking to put them on blast next.

[Ultragunner]

Black hair black kimono girl instantly gets it, Naofumi is the only one who proved that he had some actual backbone.

Also, what the heck did Ren (the sword hero) think? A "cheat" ability? Yeah, maybe it isn't a standard shield ability, but said the guy who probably has tons of skills/abilities.

I mean, the other three are just.....bad, even as gamer they are just bad players
Even if they look down on tank characters in an MMO, they should have been aware that even tanks have some special abilities?

This is like when you are surprised when a healer, presumably a priest-like job class, absolutely demolish undead with holy magic :heh

Or the three dps are really just dimwits who severely lack imagination

[Huh...?]

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

Also, what the heck did Ren (the sword hero) think? A "cheat" ability? Yeah, maybe it isn't a standard shield ability, but said the guy who probably has tons of skills/abilities.

I mean, the other three are just.....bad, even as gamer they are just bad players
Even if they look down on tank characters in an MMO, they should have been aware that even tanks have some special abilities?

The reason they react like that is because the games they played, the Shield class didn't have any Combat ability at all (for whatever reason, its a odd system for a game were a class can't fight at all, but i hear there was an actual game like that).

So, even if a Tank class had any special abilities, they would be only defense related.

That's why they considered it as a CHEAT, because its common in games for those to happen.

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

This is like when you are surprised when a healer, presumably a priest-like job class, absolutely demolish undead with holy magic :heh

Well, the only MMORPG i play, Cleric class can actually have one of the highest DPS capabilities (on par with other Magical class like, Sorcerer or Bard) be it PvE or PvP, if the player wanted to focus on it.

Also in it Tank class (aka., Templar), while can fight have low DPS compared to other classes (they had bad defense capabilities as well before, mainly because the other class had a lot of power creeps while the Tank class mostly got minor defensive buffs; but this things somewhat got balanced out in a patch last year, which made it impossible for any single class to OHKO a Tank there alone).

[Wandering Soul]

So the fact that Naofumi has no real experience with this world as a game turned out to be a blessing in disguise. As a result, he doesn't have any of the misconceptions that were messing up the other heroes. Hopefully, after this, they get the whole "this is a game" idea" out of their minds.

[frodonk]

All the other 3 heroes were probably noobs in whatever game they were playing before they came to this world, elemental resistance/damage/vulnerability mechanics are found in almost all games, even simple match 3 games incorporate those mechanics, and these so-called gamers didn't think that to be the reason why they're doing almost no damage to that monster, really?? And the sole LN reader among the 4 was the only one who realized this??

Also, as "gamers" one of the more exciting things you can do in a game is to discover the skill tree of your character, but these 3 didn't even think that there might be more advanced skills to be unlocked other than changing the element of their weapons? Are they so blind because of their preconceived notions about what this world/game is about that when they saw the shield's advanced skill Ren basically shouted HAXX? really??

I'm sure all the other heroes have that alternate skill tree as well, but they're acting like they're new to video games, even though Nao keeps telling them to stop thinking that this world is a game! There's nothing special about what Nao has done with regards to unlocking skills, he just used monster drops like a normal gamer would!

[Kanon]

To be fair to the other heroes, while Naofumi certainly didn't cheat, the cursed series is something one wouldn't unlock under normal circumstances. And it is pretty OP, he isn't just able to attack with it, he seems to be dealing damage far above his level.

Originally Posted by Twi

And remember, Naofumi's Curse Shield is something that's gives you great power at a great expense on top of adding the Dragon Core it adds the Dragon's rage against Ren to both Naofumi and Filo too since she ate a core.

I expected him to attack Ren because of that. Now that he's apparently "tamed" the dragon, I wonder if that plot point will get brought up again. I assume it will, otherwise it was completely useless to include the dragon's grudge. Kind of a shame because Ren is the most decent hero of the three.

[Demi.]

Iron Maiden was badass and easily the best part of the fighting. I feel like emotions this episode were conveyed far better than the ones in episode 8. Raphtalia gave a great speech to the other heroes, and called them out on their BS. The voice acting was on point, and I could feel her emotions resonate as she spoke.

Glass is here, someones about to get rekt.

[Kinematics]

Originally Posted by frodonk

All the other 3 heroes were probably noobs in whatever game they were playing before they came to this world, elemental resistance/damage/vulnerability mechanics are found in almost all games, even simple match 3 games incorporate those mechanics, and these so-called gamers didn't think that to be the reason why they're doing almost no damage to that monster, really?? And the sole LN reader among the 4 was the only one who realized this??

Also, as "gamers" one of the more exciting things you can do in a game is to discover the skill tree of your character, but these 3 didn't even think that there might be more advanced skills to be unlocked other than changing the element of their weapons? Are they so blind because of their preconceived notions about what this world/game is about that when they saw the shield's advanced skill Ren basically shouted HAXX? really??

I'm sure all the other heroes have that alternate skill tree as well, but they're acting like they're new to video games, even though Nao keeps telling them to stop thinking that this world is a game! There's nothing special about what Nao has done with regards to unlocking skills, he just used monster drops like a normal gamer would!

I kinda disagree with you on this. There's a pretty notable difference between the people who are excited about figuring out the game mechanics, and the people who are excited about being 'the best'.

In FFXI, I was one of a very small group of people who spent a lot of time figuring out how the game worked. I'd be hard-pressed to pick out more than a few dozen people working at that level, out of game with hundreds of thousands of players. We were the type that might leave the game running overnight to collect combat data with tens of thousands of attacks just to get the statistical margin of error below 0.5%. And then repeat that for every possible value a stat could have (ie: dozens of instances). (This was split up over several players, so it wasn't quite as bad for each individual.)

I knew the game inside-out, but I was not one of the top players. I was not in any major raid groups until near the end of my time in the game. I liked to explore and experiment, but I wasn't a leader.

On the other hand, I knew a few people who were extremely charismatic leaders, but that barely understood the mechanics of the game. They would lead raids, and would get some of the best gear in the game, and they would brute force their way through the content, or blame it on some scapegoat if things went bad. (There were also great leaders who did actually know what they were doing, but that's a separate group.)

Basically, this second group wants to be praised and acknowledged, and get the good loot. They will learn just enough that they can act as an authority when shouting down anyone else. If lightning is the best element, then you will by god use lightning or you can go sit with the benchwarmers. If they should really be using ice, then a few failures down the road, they will suddenly explain that ice is what really needs to be used, and — this is important — this is better than lightning. Not, "I made a mistake." Rather, "I found a new way that's even better. Praise me more for leading the way!"

This is in no way uncommon. Players with the charisma to draw people to them (and Ren, Itsuki, and Motoyasu are definitely those types) often behave in ways that are reminiscent of CEOs and other bosses. They are not noobs, but they don't listen. If you're in a business environment, the trick would be to make the boss think that the new improvement was his own idea, and claim credit for it. Sucks that he takes credit for your work, but at least it's an improvement over what was.

In the days before there were tools that let anyone figure out how to improve their gear in the easiest ways for their own needs, there was a huge amount of dogma ruling the game. There is only one set of 'best' gear. There is only one set of 'best' party members for 'best' experience gain. There is only one way to win this fight. If you didn't comply, you were a hindrance. If you didn't have the best gear, you were a noob.


Anyway, I see both of these things — 'elite' gamers, and business managers — in Ren/Itsuki/Motoyasu's behaviors. They don't have to be noobs to be hard-headed, steeped in dogma, and unwilling to learn or change.

[Aogami]

Another thing to keep in mind were that Raphtalia and Filo were pulling their weight far more than the 3 heroes despite the fact they were severely under leveled due to denied the opportunity to promote classes.

[Frontier]

Good on Naofumi for giving the girls accessories to help them with their mana. Functional and fashionable .

Martial arts grandma was pretty fun to see, especially Naofumi's reaction to her .

It was kind of cool to see all four Heroes kind of working together for once even if the only ones who actually seemed to make a meaningful dent in the Wave was Naofumi and his group. Ren is also growing on me a lot more, especially when he was the first one to jump to help Naofumi .

So the Curse Shield not only emboldens Naofumi's rage to power itself, but the rage of what it absorbs as well, as the dragon's rage towards Ren gives Naofumi both an upgrade and even more uncontrollable anger that he needs to rein in. He was finally able to regain some control over it by the end, and dish out an impressive Iron Maiden special attack, but I wonder if the Curse Shield will grow more unwieldy the more Naofumi upgrades it ?

Raphtalia cutting off Myne and calling out the other Heroes on how much they drop the ball is always awesome .

I think Raphtalia is due a serious upgrade. Not that she's slacking, but she seems to feel bad about not being strong enough to really support Naofumi, and Filo seems to do much more damage in combat then she does. Emotionally she's the backbone of the group, but I can see why she might want to bolster her strength in the future, which I imagine will probably play into her Class Upgrade .

Well, I guess no one who was there can claim the Shield Hero is weak and incapable of fighting anymore .

I love how Motoyasu is basically walking on eggshells whenever Filo is around and she knows it .

It's kind of hilarious that our ostensible main villain is the one claiming Naofumi is more of a true hero compared to the other three. Is that justice? Maybe so .

Glass certainly shakes things up quite a bit. I mean, beyond being a very obviously powerful and attractive woman in a kimono, she's also seemingly behind the Waves or at least very involved with them. And it also seems like she's testing the Heroes, maybe? Whatever the case, something tells me the worst is yet to come for the Heroes .

Does anyone know who voiced Glass? The voice sounded familiar...I couldn't quite place it between Ami Koshimizu, Mai Nakahara, or Satomi Arai.

[frodonk]

Originally Posted by Kinematics

I kinda disagree with you on this. There's a pretty notable difference between the people who are excited about figuring out the game mechanics, and the people who are excited about being 'the best'.

In FFXI, I was one of a very small group of people who spent a lot of time figuring out how the game worked. I'd be hard-pressed to pick out more than a few dozen people working at that level, out of game with hundreds of thousands of players. We were the type that might leave the game running overnight to collect combat data with tens of thousands of attacks just to get the statistical margin of error below 0.5%. And then repeat that for every possible value a stat could have (ie: dozens of instances). (This was split up over several players, so it wasn't quite as bad for each individual.)

I knew the game inside-out, but I was not one of the top players. I was not in any major raid groups until near the end of my time in the game. I liked to explore and experiment, but I wasn't a leader.

On the other hand, I knew a few people who were extremely charismatic leaders, but that barely understood the mechanics of the game. They would lead raids, and would get some of the best gear in the game, and they would brute force their way through the content, or blame it on some scapegoat if things went bad. (There were also great leaders who did actually know what they were doing, but that's a separate group.)

Basically, this second group wants to be praised and acknowledged, and get the good loot. They will learn just enough that they can act as an authority when shouting down anyone else. If lightning is the best element, then you will by god use lightning or you can go sit with the benchwarmers. If they should really be using ice, then a few failures down the road, they will suddenly explain that ice is what really needs to be used, and — this is important — this is better than lightning. Not, "I made a mistake." Rather, "I found a new way that's even better. Praise me more for leading the way!"

This is in no way uncommon. Players with the charisma to draw people to them (and Ren, Itsuki, and Motoyasu are definitely those types) often behave in ways that are reminiscent of CEOs and other bosses. They are not noobs, but they don't listen. If you're in a business environment, the trick would be to make the boss think that the new improvement was his own idea, and claim credit for it. Sucks that he takes credit for your work, but at least it's an improvement over what was.

In the days before there were tools that let anyone figure out how to improve their gear in the easiest ways for their own needs, there was a huge amount of dogma ruling the game. There is only one set of 'best' gear. There is only one set of 'best' party members for 'best' experience gain. There is only one way to win this fight. If you didn't comply, you were a hindrance. If you didn't have the best gear, you were a noob.


Anyway, I see both of these things — 'elite' gamers, and business managers — in Ren/Itsuki/Motoyasu's behaviors. They don't have to be noobs to be hard-headed, steeped in dogma, and unwilling to learn or change.

Part of what I've laid out might've been influenced by all the other isekai series I've seen over the years. These 4 were touted as the legendary heroes who will save the country/world, so mastery of the world they're now in is expected of them, even the plot has pointed this out by the king saying that "everyone knows the summoned heroes already know what they need to know when they come here", they all even made fun of Naofumi when he was confused about things they considered basic.

Aaand yet they lack knowledge of basic stuff like elemental resistance, this is beyond the level of "hard-headedness" or "unwillingness to learn", it's like they haven't even played the tutorial yet.

Even if they're the type of player that only wanted to play the leader and get attention for it while disregarding the game mechanics as long as they can defeat enemies, they should have known about something as basic as "possible skill trees" and that "you should switch your weapon's element if you're not doing any damage to the enemy."

Not only did they keep beating the thing with their weapons even though they're doing very little damage to it, Ren even shouted HAXX when he saw that skill. These reactions in any game would come from a noob, not an experienced hero.

I guess what I'm saying is that whatever magic that brought them to this world should've chosen more carefully, and the next time they summon a single person from a pool of presumably thousands of players from multiple worlds, they'll pick somebody who at the very least knows something about elemental resistances