Danganronpa - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[Sute443]

As an anime-only viewer (well, actually I'm watching a playthrough on Youtube, but am only on the second case there and refuse to overtake the anime) I quite enjoyed this episode. The characterizations didn't bother me and it didn't feel like Kirigiri was turning on Naegi at all during the trial.

I really wish I'd voiced my suspicions that we'd be seeing AE again after the execution. As an AI, it isn't like she'd be limited to only existing in the laptop. My suspicions were right about one thing and it's the one thing I didn't mention. Ah well.

There is one bit that struck me as odd in this episode: The claim that Mukuro had gone to murder Naegi on the mastermind's orders. That's a rather more direct action than the mastermind has (at least appeared to have) been taking. Give the students motive, sure, but not direct orders to kill (well, Sakura, but...). Seems like the mastermind might have been replaced.

[Solitaired]

^ click on Klashikari's spoiler box for more information on Ikusaba Mukuro

[Gohan78]

As an anime-only viewer, I never thought that Kirigiri was betraying Naegi. I thought it was all part of her plan. I speculated that Kirigiri was trying to force a draw, with 3 votes for her and 3 votes for Naegi. Since they never stated what happens in the event of a draw vote, I thought that maybe it was possible to delay the trial this way.

But wait a moment, didn't Monokuma break his own rules here? The designated culprit should be executed only if he was really the perp, otherwise everybody except the real perp should be killed. We know that Naegi isn't the criminal, so what gives?

[eplipswich]

Originally Posted by Gohan78

But wait a moment, didn't Monokuma break his own rules here? The designated culprit should be executed only if he was really the perp, otherwise everybody except the real perp should be killed. We know that Naegi isn't the criminal, so what gives?

It goes to show that Momokuma is becoming desperate himself, as stated and explained by Kirigiri in the second half of the episode.

[Deathscyther]

Originally Posted by Gohan78

As an anime-only viewer, I never thought that Kirigiri was betraying Naegi. I thought it was all part of her plan. I speculated that Kirigiri was trying to force a draw, with 3 votes for her and 3 votes for Naegi. Since they never stated what happens in the event of a draw vote, I thought that maybe it was possible to delay the trial this way.

That plan sounds far to risky to work and wouldn't be something Kirigiri would risk. After all, she even said 'If you execute me here, then the mystery of this school will never be solved. I won't let that happen, no matter what.' After this you could see her biting her lip, which means that she was contemplating about doing something. When Monokuma suddenly told them that their time was up, she noticed that nobody knew what to do. She feared that they'd vote for her and decided to come with an argument that would put the blame on Naegi (since only Naegi could reject that argument), knowing fully that the others would vote for Naegi.

No, Kirigiri really did betray Naegi to save herself there. She did it to save the information she had gathered, but she did it nonetheless.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Deathscyther

That plan sounds far to risky to work and wouldn't be something Kirigiri would risk. After all, she even said 'If you execute me here, then the mystery of this school will never be solved. I won't let that happen, no matter what.' After this you could see her biting her lip, which means that she was contemplating about doing something. When Monokuma suddenly told them that their time was up, she noticed that nobody knew what to do. She feared that they'd vote for her and decided to come with an argument that would put the blame on Naegi (since only Naegi could reject that argument), knowing fully that the others would vote for Naegi.

No, Kirigiri really did betray Naegi to save herself there. She did it to save the information she had gathered, but she did it nonetheless.

Right. She really did betray him. But it was a situation where it was either her or him, so I don't think she should be faulted much for it. Her and him were the only two out of the six of them who even knew about the 16th student prior to that student's death, so there's just no way that either of the other 4 students would end up taking the fall here.

[Deathscyther]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Right. She really did betray him. But it was a situation where it was either her or him, so I don't think she should be faulted much for it. Her and him were the only two out of the six of them who even knew about the 16th student prior to that student's death, so there's just no way that either of the other 4 students would end up taking the fall here.

Yeah, in the end she did it because she believes that they will have a better chance of beating Monokuma with the information she had gathered. I'm sure she wouldn't have put the blame on Naegi like that if she didn't have this belief.

[Anh_Minh]

The question is, if Naegi wasn't the culprit, why didn't Monokuma take advantage of that to kill everyone?

[GreyZone]

There was actually still the chance that Fukawa/Genocider "accidently" killed the 16th student after touching her.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The question is, if Naegi wasn't the culprit, why didn't Monokuma take advantage of that to kill everyone?

Probably because it is a TV show and he would have to reveal the real answer in the case of executing everyone, which was most likely very lame in a way and would cause his "despair destroys hope" theme to crumble, at least that seems most likely. A similar argument was later used by Kirigiri to prevent the execution of Naegi from repeating.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Deathscyther

Yeah, in the end she did it because she believes that they will have a better chance of beating Monokuma with the information she had gathered. I'm sure she wouldn't have put the blame on Naegi like that if she didn't have this belief.

Agreed. She probably wouldn't have been able to bring herself to turn on Naegi if that information wasn't on the line.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The question is, if Naegi wasn't the culprit, why didn't Monokuma take advantage of that to kill everyone?

That is arguably a plot hole, yeah. Especially since the previous trial over Sakura's death seems to suggest that Monokuma wants such a "kill everyone!" situation to occur.

But then... If Aoi had been successful in the Sakura trial, would Monokuma had gone ahead and killed everyone?

The only way I can see to close this plothole is that Monokuma never intended to have everyone killed, in spite of what the rules said. Why?

"Because the show must go on!"

Of course, this raises some questions about Celestia's gamble in the third murder case. If Celestia had managed to succeed there, would Monokuma had really let her win and graduate, and have everybody else killed?

[Deathscyther]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The question is, if Naegi wasn't the culprit, why didn't Monokuma take advantage of that to kill everyone?

Well, Monokuma's goal seems to be to make everyone despair. Not only the students, but the ones watching the 'show' as well.

Kirigiri seems to believe that Monokuma planned this case just to get rid of her. If that's indeed true, then he probably wanted to get rid of the one who could possibly stop him, since he knows about Kirigiri's title/abilities. He probably suspects that Kirigiri is the one who stole his 'precious treasure' as well. If he were to get rid of her, he could continue making the others feel despair. When Naegi tried to shift the blame from Kirigiri to Monokuma though, he probably panicked and tried to get rid of Naegi instead, since he seems to fear Naegi to some extent too.
Do remember, Kirigiri suspects that Monokuma's true plan was to kill Naegi and frame Kirigiri, thus executing her. This means that he wanted to get rid of both of them. But since Kirigiri saved Naegi that night, Monokuma had to use another plan which focused solely on getting rid Kirigiri. So I guess that Monokuma still would have gotten something out of killing Naegi, since that was offcially his plan (if Kirigiri's right). In turn, this would make Kirigiri, the one he intended to get rid of, to feel despair after seeing Naegi getting killed because of her accusations. A win-win situation for him, I guess.

In the end, I think he doesn't simply want the others to kill each other or to execute them himself. I think he wants to get as much despair out of this situation as possible. And since he seems to think that Kirigiri and Naegi are hindrances to his plan, he probably wants to get rid of them first, so that he can continue this 'show' of his.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That is arguably a plot hole, yeah. Especially since the previous trial over Sakura's death seems to suggest that Monokuma wants such a "kill everyone!" situation to occur.

The main difference being that Monokuma wasn't actively trying to get someone executed that time though. He just watched that time.

[Sute443]

Originally Posted by Solitaired

^ click on Klashikari's spoiler box for more information on Ikusaba Mukuro

Didn't see anything there relevant to what I was talking about. Though Deathscyther's latest speculation (mostly) satisfies me on that issue.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That is arguably a plot hole, yeah. Especially since the previous trial over Sakura's death seems to suggest that Monokuma wants such a "kill everyone!" situation to occur.

But then... If Aoi had been successful in the Sakura trial, would Monokuma had gone ahead and killed everyone?

Probably. In Sakura's case, Aoi was trying to get everyone killed out of despair, which would have fit the despair-triumphs-over-hope theme. I didn't really see anybody despairing in this case.

On another note, I thought of something else that's odd about this episode (and I wonder how many people will tell me to use my suspension of disbelief this time): Why would there be such a huge garbage pit beneath Kibougamine? Yeah, it looks like it could hold years and years worth of garbage, but it would fill up eventually and something like that, underground, would be a huge pain to empty. I also can't think it would have been easy for the mastermind to have it dug out when preparing for the game, so...

Maybe they're actually in a tower with a replica of Kibougamine on top?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Stall_19

Ugh, nothing annoys me more than people who complain about things that were left out from an adaptation. I swear it happens with pretty much every adaptation. They have a certain amount of episodes to tell the story and of course they have to cut stuff to save time. I don't really care about what they changed or left out. Of course they're going to rush it, they only have 2 more episodes to work with.

If it was only "missing stuff" there wouldn't any issue save for few personal choices.
This episodes however is a major issue compared to the rest because: 1) it is missing critical information on the long run 2) more importantly, it -changes- events which do NOT make sense with the plot.

Nothing annoys me more than people who think others are complaining over "nothing special". Instead of painting people in a negative light and thinking that we "complain for the sake of complaining that it isn't a 100% adaptation", pay at least attention to why there are complains to begin with. We all frigging know that they have too few episodes. If they have to cut things, fine, but don't cut the important stuff AND changes things for the hell of it.

[ookamigirl]

Kirigiri and Togami are the most mysterious characters.
They are also the most suspicious to me all the time.
Their powers of deduction are really impressive.
This time the trial was very intense.
I was surprised Kirigiri would throw Naegi under the bus so easily.
Things are getting complicated again...
Wow! Never saw this chain of evens coming! It sure was a surprise.

[Solitaired]

Originally Posted by Sute443

Didn't see anything there relevant to what I was talking about. Though Deathscyther's latest speculation (mostly) satisfies me on that issue.

You are asking "The claim that Mukuro had gone to murder Naegi on the mastermind's orders. That's a rather more direct action than the mastermind has (at least appeared to have) been taking. "

Spoiler for Ikusaba Mukuro's Talent:

She is the Super High School Mercenary.

[Sute443]

That that was Mukuro's talent has no bearing on the idea that taking such a direct action seems out of character for the mastermind. The seeming-OOC for the mastermind was the important part there, not Mukuro. But like I said, Deathscyther's speculation mostly satisfies me on that one.

[Nvis]

I can't stop staring at Kyouko's legs!!!

Very distracting.

[ChampDream]

Originally Posted by Nvis

I can't stop staring at Kyouko's legs!!!

Very distracting.

I agree with you

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Gohan78

As an anime-only viewer, I never thought that Kirigiri was betraying Naegi. I thought it was all part of her plan. I speculated that Kirigiri was trying to force a draw, with 3 votes for her and 3 votes for Naegi. Since they never stated what happens in the event of a draw vote, I thought that maybe it was possible to delay the trial this way.

I don't think it needs to be said what happens.

I mean, if it is a tie between two suspects, that logically means they failed to identify the culprit, doesn't it?

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Gohan78

As an anime-only viewer, I never thought that Kirigiri was betraying Naegi. I thought it was all part of her plan. I speculated that Kirigiri was trying to force a draw, with 3 votes for her and 3 votes for Naegi. Since they never stated what happens in the event of a draw vote, I thought that maybe it was possible to delay the trial this way.

What Dengar said.

I think it was an unanimous vote for Naegi btw as the VN evidence you get there really only leaves you with a high probability Naegi did it.
the situation is pretty much: It was either Naegi, or Kirigiri who was meant to be absent the entire time rather than getting a chance to investigate.