Higurashi Episode 25 Discussion / Poll

[Divini]

I probably would've teared up a bit at the school yard scene... if I wasn't laughing so hard at Mion's and Satoko's reactions

[Fernando Hernandez]

Okay, I read all the TIPS, and the spoilers, and everything, but I've never really seen this question addressed directly...I haven't watched Kai yet, so I'm not sure if it's answered, but here goes.

Spoiler:

In Tatarigoroshi-Hen, after Keiichi kills Satoko's uncle, he becomes paranoid when he realizes two things:

A) the body is not where he buried it
B) Satoko's behaviour implies he's still around, alive

The explanation for A) is no doubt the same that happened for Rena here in Tsumihoroboshi-Hen. They hid the bodies in the same place as Keiichi killed Teppei in Tatarigoroshi-Hen; the forest. According to Mion the bodies they hid with Rena in Tsumihoroboshi-Hen would be in danger of being discovered if they deforested the area, so she used her connections to have them moved because of her friends, and the Hinamizawa philosophy of helping fellow villagers out, right? Well no doubt the same thing happened in Tatarigoroshi-Hen. Rena got paranoid in Tsumihoroboshi-Hen because she thought Mion was against her when she moved the bodies without telling. For Keiichi in Tatarigoroshi-Hen, it caused him to panic - why isn't the body where he hid it? Probably because Mion did the same and moved it. Obviously Mion and Rena knew what he did. He didn't hide it well and you can tell they knew when they covered for him by saying he was at the Cotton Drifting Festival. That brings us to B). The doppleganger Keiichi fears of him that is hanging around isn't real, that was just the cover from Mion and Rena to say he was there. He really wasn't, obviously. But Keiichi is becoming delusional at this point so combined with the missing body and how it seems like Teppei is still alive, he wonders if maybe he has a doppleganger. And as for why Teppei is 'alive' it's only because Satoko herself is delusional and is convinced he's still around abusing her when he's really not. But all these things combine together and result in the Keiichi of the later parts in Tatarigoroshi-Hen.

Tsumihoroboshi-Hen has similar elements of what happened here, even though it's more directly the answer arc to Onikakushi-Hen. But we know that for the mystery of where the bodies went, Mion had the Sonozaki family hide them, just like she probably did for Keiichi in Tatarigoroshi-Hen. And we know that the whole 'doppleganger' issue is still here in this chapter, and all the others, with Takano - whose body should have already been dead by the time of the festival. We know that's because she wasn't really dead and used an already dead body to burn and pretend was her, solving the mystery of how she was at the festival when she should have been dead. So as of that point all the mysteries surrounding missing bodies and dopplegangers, which are a main cause of Keiichi's descent into paranoia in Tatarigoroshi-Hen, can be explained logically.

So here's my question...is it ever explained why Rena is 'found' elsewhere when she's hiding from the guys in the junkyard? Rena's paranoia here is like Keiichi's in Tatarigoroshi-Hen; he thought there was a doppleganger of himself somehow lurking around, but we know he was crazy (he thought he could kill people by wishing it :P ). For Rena, it's belief in Takano's notes, about aliens being the true cause of the Hinamizawa Syndrome. You can specifically see this in this from the TIPS thread about a portion the Anime didn't cover in great detail. So that's why Rena thinks the aliens made a clone to 'replace' her because they intend to get rid of her since she has Takano's notebooks and knows 'the truth'. But what is the real reason that Rena is spotted elsewhere?! Is that ever explained? Is it just like in Tatarigoroshi-Hen, and maybe Mion and co. are covering for Rena and trying to mislead the police? But how do they know she's really at the junkyard, just a good guess because they know she hangs out there? Though in the post I just linked to, Rika knew to find her there, so she could have had a part in that. But I don't think this is ever directly explained.

Basically the question is, who is the Rena that is supposedly found in the quarry, when the real Rena is hiding in the junkyard?

Sorry if this has been asked/answered before, but I've never found the answer to it so I thought I'd ask.

[Dante of the Inferno]

Most astute of you.

Spoiler for Explanation Discussion:

Yes to all of the above. The problems, of course, arise from everyone lying to one another in the first place. All the craziness is centralized from "protection through deception," something that all three of the series address.

Spoiler for Special Spoiler comment:

interesting that you immediately suspected Takano had a fake body lying around. But then, how would she get access to one...

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Fernando Hernandez

Basically the question is, who is the Rena that is supposedly found in the quarry, when the real Rena is hiding in the junkyard?

It's never clarified. My guess it that the Sonozakis were trying to protect Rena from the police and thus made false reports in order to send them on a wild goose chase. Or it could have been that someone mistook another person for Rena and contacted the police thinking that he had genuinely seen her.

[Fernando Hernandez]

Originally Posted by Dante of the Inferno

Spoiler for Special Spoiler comment:

interesting that you immediately suspected Takano had a fake body lying around. But then, how would she get access to one...

Spoiler for my thoughts:

Well it's just so obvious that she's not really dead. I haven't seen Kai yet, but it's pretty obvious from her behaviour throughout all the story arcs that she's a very suspicious person and is likely to be somewhat responsible for all these incidents so far, or if she's not, she at least knows a lot more than she lets on about them.

She clearly fakes her death, particularly because the body they find died before the festival where witnesses clearly saw her, and from her suspicious actions in Tatarigoroshi when she meets up with Keiichi. "You and I never met here"? Well in this world he wasn't a witness to seeing her at the festival but she needed to make sure no one would say they saw her when she was supposed to be dead. Like 'I didn't see your crime and you didn't see mine'. She most likely had an already-dead body prepared in her trunk and was going off to burn it when she ran into Keiichi (or returning from having burned it, if we assume the car that honked its horn when Keiichi was burying Teppei was also Takano which I think it was). That's why the Takano at the festival in the other arcs was the real Takano and there was no such 'doppleganger'; it's the dead Takano that was really the fake.

I don't think it makes sense any other way from the clues up to where the Anime ends, at least. I have read all the TIPS from the storyline the Anime covers and I've read some of the Manga, but nothing really past where the first Anime series ends, so this is all based on what I gather from that.

Originally Posted by Eryops

It's never clarified. My guess it that the Sonozakis were trying to protect Rena from the police and thus made false reports in order to send them on a wild goose chase. Or it could have been that someone mistook another person for Rena and contacted the police thinking that he had genuinely seen her.

I figure it was someone, either the Sonozaki family, or maybe just Mion acting alone, or Rika, etc, Keiichi and co., who sent out a false report to confuse the police. That's probably an area they knew Rena probably wouldn't hide out, at least, even if they didn't specifically know she was in the junkyard. But I had other thoughts too.

Spoiler for who found Rena:

From the TIPS I linked to in my previous post we know that Rika somehow found Rena in the junkyard and the scene there ensued. When I think back to her actions in Himatsubushi-Hen, where she cut all the phone lines so Akasaka couldn't phone his wife, it could be similar. Rika knew (or at least strongly suspected) Rena was hiding in the junkyard, so she followed the police there and then made a fake call saying she was spotted somewhere else. The problem with that theory is that if she was calling as some anonymous tipster, well, I forget...was the information that the cops were looking for Rena even released to the public? Because that might be suspicious. Maybe if she said she was Rika Furude she'd be expected to know what was going on? But would they expect her to rat out her friend Rena? Even if she's got a high status in the village and is part of the 3 great families, you'd think they might think twice about a young girl so easily selling out her friend, but I'm not sure. Either way I think somehow, if it wasn't Keiichi and co. as a whole, it could have easily been Rika. But most likely it was a false report by the Sonozaki's because in spite of Rena's delusions they were really trying to protect her, right?

Either way I just wanted to know if they ever legitimately explained the whole 'Rena's doppleganger' thing or if it was just meant to imply that was a false report to lead them off her trail.

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Fernando Hernandez

Spoiler for who found Rena:

From the TIPS I linked to in my previous post we know that Rika somehow found Rena in the junkyard and the scene there ensued. When I think back to her actions in Himatsubushi-Hen, where she cut all the phone lines so Akasaka couldn't phone his wife, it could be similar. Rika knew (or at least strongly suspected) Rena was hiding in the junkyard, so she followed the police there and then made a fake call saying she was spotted somewhere else. The problem with that theory is that if she was calling as some anonymous tipster, well, I forget...was the information that the cops were looking for Rena even released to the public? Because that might be suspicious. Maybe if she said she was Rika Furude she'd be expected to know what was going on? But would they expect her to rat out her friend Rena? Even if she's got a high status in the village and is part of the 3 great families, you'd think they might think twice about a young girl so easily selling out her friend, but I'm not sure. Either way I think somehow, if it wasn't Keiichi and co. as a whole, it could have easily been Rika. But most likely it was a false report by the Sonozaki's because in spite of Rena's delusions they were really trying to protect her, right?

Rika was at the dump when they got the report, so it couldn't have been her.

[Ithekro]

Hanyuu maybe?

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Hanyuu maybe?

She can't interact with her environment, so no.

There's no need to posit anything complicated. The Sonozakis or a simple case of mistaken identity are both more than adequate for explaining it.

[OkamiNoKaze]

Wow, I'm beginning to wonder if maybe Rena didn't pick up some parasite from hanging out in that junkyard all the time, that combined with her delusions, make for an interesting combination. I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking Mion's mom was looking great in this episode, Though I am surprised it's her talking with Ooishi and not grandma. Well on to the end of this series.

[Dante of the Inferno]

Originally Posted by OkamiNoKaze

Wow, I'm beginning to wonder if maybe Rena didn't pick up some parasite from hanging out in that junkyard all the time, that combined with her delusions, make for an interesting combination. I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking Mion's mom was looking great in this episode, Though I am surprised it's her talking with Ooishi and not grandma. Well on to the end of this series.

Only season one. The ending to this can hardly be considered the conclusion.

[OkamiNoKaze]

I was counting this as one series, and then Kai as the next series in the Franchise, sorry for not making it clear.

[Archon_Wing]

I love this episode because it's so intense emotionally, most notably the entire scene involving Keiichi and Rika. Everything changes here, and episode 25 does a very good job conveying the message and the mood as the Atonement Chapter.