[Manga] Naruto Chapter 581 Discussion

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by MidnightViper88

Umm...Because the Sharingan is a de-evolutionary mutation of the Rinnegan? ..

I'm confused. Is this really the case or was Madara only able to gain the rinnegan after acquiring shodai's cells?

[NightMare_Hibari Kyo]

i got a couple of questions : how the hell does kishi intend to make sasuke stronger than he is now and match up to naruto ? i mean naruto is much stronger right now the way i see it...

random question : who the hell is tobi now that madara is ressuructed? (i know late on asking )

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Kakashi

I'm sure he's aware that he's doing the opposite of Itachi wanted. His actual personal reasoning hasn't been revealed yet, because it will probably come up in his fight with Naruto when they start shouting at each other.

It already has, he explained it to Tobi a long time ago.
He hates the idea that Konoha's peace was bought with the blood of his clan and he's enraged by the fact that they used the loyalty of his brother against his own family making his life a living hell and turning him into a reviled monster to the very people he sought to protect.
So he wants to punish them all, to do onto them what was done to his clan. He knows Itachi doesn't want that but he doesn't care. Itachi's priority was Konoha whereas Sasuke's has always been the Uchiha clan and and revenge for their death.

Sasuke's characterization is a complete mess since Itachi's death but his reasons to want revenge on Konoha were made crystal clear.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by TimeMask

It seems Kishi is just allowing sharingan to use some jutsu the rinnegan can use (izanagi) but at the cost of eyesight.

i dont think izanagi is used by rinnegan. whenever someone has used it it has been with sharingan

It may be that Kishi doesn't plan on giving Sasuke a rinnegan but instead will power-up sharingan so Sasuke can match Nagato's strength like Tobi hinted he would.

i doubt it. whenever a power is hinted at for sasuke or naruto achieving in particular, they will get it eventually. its just the nature of the story.

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i dont think izanagi is used by rinnegan. whenever someone has used it it has been with sharingan

i doubt it. whenever a power is hinted at for sasuke or naruto achieving in particular, they will get it eventually. its just the nature of the story.

Rikudo Sennin used izanagi with rinnegan to separate the Jubi into 9 biju but it may have been a different kind of izanagi to Danzo's, rinnegan is the final form of sharingan so it will have access to sharingan powers.

Its possible that Sasuke will get rinnegan but I personally don't think Kishi will give Sasuke rinnegan unless he becomes the main villain since Sasuke would be too strong with rinnegan.

Also Madara didn't show us much with EMS so Sasuke will be the one to show us what EMS can do in many fights to come.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by TimeMask

Rikudo Sennin used izanagi with rinnegan to separate the Jubi into 9 biju but it may have been a different kind of izanagi to Danzo's, rinnegan is the final form of sharingan so it will have access to sharingan powers.

In my understanding of the manga sharingan is a degeneration of the rinnegan, thus the rinnegan's ultimate jutsu which was the creation of all things should be a much more powerful version of the combination of izanagi and izanami.

Originally Posted by TimeMask

Its possible that Sasuke will get rinnegan but I personally don't think Kishi will give Sasuke rinnegan unless he becomes the main villain since Sasuke would be too strong with rinnegan.

You shouldn't overestimate the rinnegan's power, it also depends very much on the user's abilities. The power levels of current fights have already reached the rinnegan level that Nagato had (sure not the one of the Rikudo sennin), we see Madara and Tobi using different powers of the rinnegan, added to that Edo-Tensei and the demon chakras. So if the power levels just keep rising as usual in such shonen manga then soon Sasuke will be able to awaken the rinnegan, otherwise he won't have any chance against powerhouses like Madara, Tobi and even Naruto. Just look at the current fight, the almighty EMS-Susano has been defeated by Sage-Kabuto's first move, he had to be saved by Itachi. If Kabuto can beat Sasuke then that's a sign he will have to power up.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Just look at the current fight, the almighty EMS-Susano has been defeated by Sage-Kabuto's first move, he had to be saved by Itachi. If Kabuto can beat Sasuke then that's a sign he will have to power up.

It has less to do with EMS and more to do with Itachi's character. Just as Kyubi-mode Naruto and Killer Bee were made to look like amateurs, and not even good ones at that, when they fought Nagato along with him.
Kishimoto can't help himself when it's about Minato and Itachi, the moment Sasuke decided to fight along with his brother sealed the fact that he was going to look like crap so Itachi could look even better.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

It has less to do with EMS and more to do with Itachi's character. Just as Kyubi-mode Naruto and Killer Bee were made to look like amateurs, and not even good ones at that, when they fought Nagato along with him.
Kishimoto can't help himself when it's about Minato and Itachi, the moment Sasuke decided to fight along with his brother sealed the fact that he was going to look like crap so Itachi could look even better.

That's the real reason, but in the end what we see is that Sasuke is not hyped up enough for the big Naruto vs Sasuke battle. Also Naruto got his powerup in the end, when Kyuubi decided to become his friend/ally/pet/buddy. Sure he was saved by Itachi, KillerBee and even Kakashi in the end, but then came the badass moment of powerup.

As for Itachi and Minato, i think Kishimoto's idea of making them genius ninjas as opposed to the raw power that Naruto and Sasuke have was good. This way both Naruto and Sasuke can develop in power levels but still remain children.

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by Hunter

It already has, he explained it to Tobi a long time ago.
He hates the idea that Konoha's peace was bought with the blood of his clan and he's enraged by the fact that they used the loyalty of his brother against his own family making his life a living hell and turning him into a reviled monster to the very people he sought to protect.
So he wants to punish them all, to do onto them what was done to his clan. He knows Itachi doesn't want that but he doesn't care. Itachi's priority was Konoha whereas Sasuke's has always been the Uchiha clan and and revenge for their death.

Sasuke's characterization is a complete mess since Itachi's death but his reasons to want revenge on Konoha were made crystal clear.

Went back to read those chapters, and you're right. Sasuke's goal from the beginning was to avenge his clan. He's just tracking back to who was ultimately responsible for what happened.

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

In my understanding of the manga sharingan is a degeneration of the rinnegan, thus the rinnegan's ultimate jutsu which was the creation of all things should be a much more powerful version of the combination of izanagi and izanami.


You shouldn't overestimate the rinnegan's power, it also depends very much on the user's abilities. The power levels of current fights have already reached the rinnegan level that Nagato had (sure not the one of the Rikudo sennin), we see Madara and Tobi using different powers of the rinnegan, added to that Edo-Tensei and the demon chakras. So if the power levels just keep rising as usual in such shonen manga then soon Sasuke will be able to awaken the rinnegan, otherwise he won't have any chance against powerhouses like Madara, Tobi and even Naruto. Just look at the current fight, the almighty EMS-Susano has been defeated by Sage-Kabuto's first move, he had to be saved by Itachi. If Kabuto can beat Sasuke then that's a sign he will have to power up.

You said rinnegan is the only thing that will let Sasuke fight Naruto evenly but there are other ways for Sasuke to get stronger without rinnegan:

Itachi said EMS gives a new technique, if Sasuke gets a strong new EMS jutsu it may be enough to let him fight Naruto evenly.
And Itachi's susanoo weapons could help if he got them at the end of the fight with Kabuto.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=111051

The link above shows another power Sasuke could get instead of rinnegan which may help so there's lots of new power ups Sasuke may get rather then depending on the power of the rinnegan like Madara is.

Madara's susanoo hasn't used a shield, arrow or black fire like Sasuke's does so I think Sasuke's EMS susanoo may be stronger then Madara's EMS susanoo.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by TimeMask

Itachi said EMS gives a new technique, if Sasuke gets a strong new EMS jutsu it may be enough to let him fight Naruto evenly.
And Itachi's susanoo weapons could help if he got them at the end of the fight with Kabuto.

EMS might be interesting to an extent, but the power level of the current fights has already surpassed that (think of Madara being forced to use rinnegan against Naruto and the 5 kages), so i think the readers would be somewhat disappointed by that. Here i'm assuming that their fight should be at least on the level of current fights, but that might be a wrong assumption. For example in the VotE fight Naruto didn't use his summoning jutsu, so if he doesn't use full kyuubi mode against Sasuke then EMS can be enough. But even more important than the power level is that the fighting must be long and interesting. Usually this is achieved by some powerups during the battle, last time at the VotE Sasuke has awakened his 3 tomoe sharingan.

Itachi's sword weapon is too overpowered, i don't see how can it be used in an interesting way since even one hit with that is lethal and it cannot be blocked. Sure Naruto could dodge it and outrun it, he can also use clones to trick Sasuke. But the sword would not make the battle interesting. The shield seems to be good for the battle, it can probably deflect the rasenshuriken.

Originally Posted by TimeMask

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=111051

The link above shows another power Sasuke could get instead of rinnegan which may help so there's lots of new power ups Sasuke may get rather then depending on the power of the rinnegan like Madara is.

Madara's susanoo hasn't used a shield, arrow or black fire like Sasuke's does so I think Sasuke's EMS susanoo may be stronger then Madara's EMS susanoo.

I don't think he will ever get back the curse seal. One reason is that it's like an ugly sickness to have that, it's too disgusting for someone who will later join Naruto on the good side. Also Itachi had saved Sasuke from it once, so having it again would be too repetitive to be interesting. Also this special ability is now used by Kabuto. The other reason is that it's too weak compared to EMS and rinnegan, it doesn't fit the current power levels.

However Kabuto was talking about 3 places where someone can become a sage (well not literally, but he mentioned 3 places, and we know 2 of these are places for sage training). Becoming a sage and having EMS might be an interesting combination instead of rinnegan. (but i think that becoming a sage is probably the natural way for Sasuke to unlock his rinnegan without altering his body in some disgusting way, and the natural way usually turns out to be the more powerful way than the artificial in this manga)

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

That's the real reason, but in the end what we see is that Sasuke is not hyped up enough for the big Naruto vs Sasuke battle.
[...]
EMS might be interesting to an extent, but the power level of the current fights has already surpassed that

Since that's the real reason the specific of which occular power is irrelevant. Sasuke could have the Juubi's eyes on steroid right now and he would still looks like shit because no one can look good when bathed in the light of Minato/Itachi's presence. It's stupid and boring but it's true.

We're yet to see anything EMS related for the moment, to claim that its level -which are still completely unknown- is surpassed is not only inaccurate for lack of information but completely meaningless anyway because it doesn't work that way. The truth of it all is that it doesn't matter what power Sasuke will use, it's going to be strong enough to do what it's supposed to do at a given moment. He could deal with Naruto's new found power with his base Sharingan if Kishimoto so wished (and for that matter Izanagi and Izanami are base Sharingan jutsu).

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

EMS might be interesting to an extent, but the power level of the current fights has already surpassed that (think of Madara being forced to use rinnegan against Naruto and the 5 kages), so i think the readers would be somewhat disappointed by that. Here i'm assuming that their fight should be at least on the level of current fights, but that might be a wrong assumption. For example in the VotE fight Naruto didn't use his summoning jutsu, so if he doesn't use full kyuubi mode against Sasuke then EMS can be enough. But even more important than the power level is that the fighting must be long and interesting. Usually this is achieved by some powerups during the battle, last time at the VotE Sasuke has awakened his 3 tomoe sharingan.

Itachi's sword weapon is too overpowered, i don't see how can it be used in an interesting way since even one hit with that is lethal and it cannot be blocked. Sure Naruto could dodge it and outrun it, he can also use clones to trick Sasuke. But the sword would not make the battle interesting. The shield seems to be good for the battle, it can probably deflect the rasenshuriken.

It depends if EMS gives a new jutsu and how strong the jutsu is since it may let Sasuke fight evenly with Naruto.

I agree that Itachi's susanoo sword is too hax but so is rinnegan and Sasuke getting that eye would mean he would never struggle to fight any single living person expect Naruto and Tobi.

Meaning rinnegan Sasuke would win too easily against anyone who's not Naruto or Tobi so it makes sense to give Sasuke a new EMS jutsu, rather then giving him rinnegan.

Originally Posted by =Ero-Senn1n

I don't think he will ever get back the curse seal. One reason is that it's like an ugly sickness to have that, it's too disgusting for someone who will later join Naruto on the good side. Also Itachi had saved Sasuke from it once, so having it again would be too repetitive to be interesting. Also this special ability is now used by Kabuto. The other reason is that it's too weak compared to EMS and rinnegan, it doesn't fit the current power levels.

However Kabuto was talking about 3 places where someone can become a sage (well not literally, but he mentioned 3 places, and we know 2 of these are places for sage training). Becoming a sage and having EMS might be an interesting combination instead of rinnegan. (but i think that becoming a sage is probably the natural way for Sasuke to unlock his rinnegan without altering his body in some disgusting way, and the natural way usually turns out to be the more powerful way than the artificial in this manga)

Would be interesting if Sasuke learned hawk sage mode at the 3rd place Kabuto mentioned and the curse mark could help with this since the curse mark lets you absorb nature energy even when moving.

This would let a sage mode user use stay in sage mode for longer since they can keep absorbing energy even when moving and it would help them not turn into a rock statue.

Sasuke wouldn't get Oro's seal but a curse mark which would let him absorb nature energy due to having Jugo's flesh (if Sasuke can activate the power).

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

It's stupid and boring but it's true.

For me it's the opposite, its actually interesting since they fight using their brain and not only some powerups. It's not that i don't like powerups, buti i like more outsmarting wins than overpowering wins since smart fights are rare. Too bad that the Itachi vs Kabuto fight, which involves two smart guys will most likely end in the next chapter. Maybe becuase if it lasted more then Sasuke would look kinda stupid, just standing there like an idiot

Originally Posted by Hunter

We're yet to see anything EMS related for the moment, to claim that its level -which are still completely unknown- is surpassed is not only inaccurate for lack of information

We have been told already that the rinnegan is the ultimate eye, and also that the Uchiha founder had a rinnegan which then degraded into the sharingan as generations passed. We also see Madara switching from his EMS to rinnegan and Hashirama's powers when he gets into trouble. Madara risked his life fighting Hashirama just to get his cells so that he could upgrade his EMS to rinnegan, for me that's proof enough that there's a clear power level difference between the two. Of course Madara not using the EMS powers most likely means that these are reserved for Sasuke, so that proves what you say, that these will be used well by Sasuke in the future. But i think at some point that won't be enough anymore. The question is will it be against Naruto or after that, currently i might be overestimating Naruto by saying that Sasuke will need rinnegan.

Originally Posted by Hunter

(and for that matter Izanagi and Izanami are base Sharingan jutsu).

I would hardly call those base if the user loses his eye after using them for just a brief period of time. If EMS means that these 2 jutsu can be used without any damage to the eyes then it's as you said, Sasuke doesn't need any more powerups. I didn't think of that because Madara never used it against the 5 kage, but i guess it might be because of plot reasons.

Originally Posted by TimeMask

Meaning rinnegan Sasuke would win too easily against anyone who's not Naruto or Tobi so it makes sense to give Sasuke a new EMS jutsu, rather then giving him rinnegan.

I don't think so, if he awakens it against Naruto, as it was the case with his 3 tomoe sharingan eye, then he won't automatically be a master of it, he will be able to use basic powers of it, but not the advanced ones. To tell the truth i didn't like the idea that Sasuke could get the rinnegan. But in the recent chapters there have been many revelations and these all seem to suggest that Orochimaru wanted to have the rinnegan in Sasuke's body. Remember after Orochi fights Sasuke in the forest of death in the chuunin exam, he says that Sasuke will be even better than Itachi. Then there's Kabuto, he has achieved everything, he is very powerful genetically enhanced sage now, but despite that he badly wants Sasuke's body. I think that the most likely reason to this is that he think Sasuke's DNA allows him to awaken the rinnegan, and then Kabuto wants to have the powers of the sage of 6 paths which will allow him to learn the secrets behind the ninja world, since the sage invented all the stuff that he wants to learn.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by NightMare_Hibari Kyo

i got a couple of questions : how the hell does kishi intend to make sasuke stronger than he is now and match up to naruto ? i mean naruto is much stronger right now the way i see it...

random question : who the hell is tobi now that madara is ressuructed? (i know late on asking )

Everyone is wondering that.

As for your other question.

I'm not sure if Sasuke needs to be "Stronger". Sasuke is, and always has been, a utility type fighter. He does edge into the power region occasionally, but most of his victories were using utility jutsu like his Chidori variations. Power is more Naruto's schtick. The thing about utility type fighters is that they are more unpredictable in a fight.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

We have been told already that the rinnegan is the ultimate eye, and also that the Uchiha founder had a rinnegan which then degraded into the sharingan as generations passed. We also see Madara switching from his EMS to rinnegan and Hashirama's powers when he gets into trouble. Madara risked his life fighting Hashirama just to get his cells so that he could upgrade his EMS to rinnegan, for me that's proof enough that there's a clear power level difference between the two. Of course Madara not using the EMS powers most likely means that these are reserved for Sasuke, so that proves what you say, that these will be used well by Sasuke in the future. But i think at some point that won't be enough anymore. The question is will it be against Naruto or after that, currently i might be overestimating Naruto by saying that Sasuke will need rinnegan.

I'm not sure why we accept this as fact. Madara earned his rinnegan after incorporating shodai's cells right? So how certain are we that the original older brother had the rinnegan when he had no senju powers? In addition how do we expect sasuke to obtain the rinnegan? So far those in the story with the rinnegan has some form of senju something. Sage of 6, nagato(uzumaki/senju), tobi (shodai's dna).

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

For me it's the opposite, its actually interesting since they fight using their brain and not only some powerups. It's not that i don't like powerups, buti i like more outsmarting wins than overpowering wins since smart fights are rare. Too bad that the Itachi vs Kabuto fight, which involves two smart guys will most likely end in the next chapter. Maybe becuase if it lasted more then Sasuke would look kinda stupid, just standing there like an idiot

Pray tell, when did Itachi or Minato ever outsmarted anyone? They're too strong, they don't need to. Itachi uses Genjutsu and if it doesn't work he uses haxxed MS jutsu, if these don't work he apparently use Izanami yet another power up.
Same with Minato, he has one good jutsu that allows him to outspeed anyone and that's what he does. He throw his special kunai at the ennemy and when they are in position he teleports and strikes, the end. When has he ever used his teleporting power in a cunning way? He was never forced to resort to smart because he's too good, no need for Portal-like strategy when he beats everybody in 1 or 2 moves.
The need to outsmart the ennemy usually comes with the fact that you lack the firepower or the mean to get the job done. That's why Sasuke and Naruto had to outsmart Zabuza, why Shika had to outsmart Temari or why Sasuke had to find a way to reach Deidara for examples. But neither Itachi nor Minato ever needed that because they are way too powerful. They have always beaten their opponent because they had better jutsu.
It's particulary blatant here, Kabuto made sure he would be safe from Itachi's firepower (can't be killed) and Genjutsu (Sage-mode) so what happens? Itachi doesn't find a smart way to use his old technique despite the odds, he pulls out a new I-win jutsu out of thin air.

We have been told already that the rinnegan is the ultimate eye [...]

I will cut your paragraph here : we've seen the Juubi's eye as a mix of Sharingan and Rinnegan twice. There is more to it than you think.
Oh and as he showed Edo-Madara was never in any danger, he's just playing with them. I already had this discussion with someone else but the power they use will be driven by the plot, we have 4 doujutsu users fighting at the same time so they will each use different things to keep them distincts. EMS/MS for Sasuke and Itachi, Mokuton with very little bits of MS/Rinnegan for Madara and probably Rinnengan and space/time jutsu for Tobi.

I would hardly call those base if the user loses his eye after using them for just a brief period of time.

They doesn't require MS/EMS/Rinnegan so they are base Sharingan jutsu. They come with a huge price yes but base nonetheless. And indeed the EMS allowing them to be used at will (or perhaps with a cooldown since that would be invincible otherwise) would be a huge power-up but I doubt it will come to that.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

I'm not sure why we accept this as fact. Madara earned his rinnegan after incorporating shodai's cells right? So how certain are we that the original older brother had the rinnegan when he had no senju powers?

I don't think the elder son of the RS had rinnegan either. His eyes look like a degraded form of rinnegan in sharingan form (a spiral, not concentric circles). The elder son was the first to begin this generational degradation. It was said by tobi that he inherited the sage's ocular power, but I don't think that means he had the same rinnegan. I think it was a degraded form as the image of him suggests. It also ties into tobi saying that nagato was the third sage (after so6p and madara), he didn't include the elder brother.

In addition how do we expect sasuke to obtain the rinnegan? So far those in the story with the rinnegan has some form of senju something. Sage of 6, nagato(uzumaki/senju), tobi (shodai's dna).

has it been made clear that madara needed the dna specifically for rinnegan? it was kabuto who infused his resurrected body with hashirama's dna. i dont think we know what madara did with the dna yet, but my guess is that he created zetsu and planned for his eventual resurrection with zetsu and tobi's help.

nagato didn't have uchiha dna, nor did he develop the rinnegan anyway. his body was just a good container for it

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

So how certain are we that the original older brother had the rinnegan when he had no senju powers?

It was said that the older brother inherited the eyes. Actually according to this wikia page he didn't have exactly the rinnegan eyes, but similar eyes.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Pray tell, when did Itachi or Minato ever outsmarted anyone? They're too strong, they don't need to.

We can see how smart they are in battle almost every time. It's quite obvious when we see Itachi lecturing Naruto, then saving Sasuke, anticipating moves of his enemies, planning in advance, knowing the weakneses of his enemies. If you just take his last fight against Kabuto it's quite obvious, he saved Sasuke by outsmarting Kabuto. But this was obvious from the start, when Kakashi was barely able to follow his moves, while Kurenai and Asuma didn't even know what's happening (here i'm talking about the part before he used MS). In case of Minato it's even more obvious since he didn't have any advanced bloodline or monsters sealed in him, he had to invent things like the rasengan and his fast teleportation to beat people, and that shows how smart he was. High speed also requires fast thinking, when we see him fighting Tobi he makes his combo-moves so fast that Tobi isn't even aware what happened. For example his combo-move of teleporting to Tobi + cutting off his hand + placing a seal that liberates the 9-tails.

[Hunter]

Read your answer attentively, what you're actually saying is : never but we're always told how smart they are. That's my point exactly, of course the author never stop telling us how amazing they are, I'm not saying the characters aren't smart, I'm saying it never pans out in actual battle because they are so amazing that they don't need to. It's particulary flagrant with Minato where you had to resort to give a bunch of speed feats and say he invented jutsu to explain to me how smart he was but it's the same with Itachi.
Never, not even once, in any of their actual on screen battles did they have to do something particulary smart to win. If you think I'm wrong then give me a single example instead of saying (4 time in your last post!) that it's obvious.
And I ask for a real example of outsmarting ennemies because "super fast combo move" and "high speed requires fast thinking" aren't example of that.

Seriously when Minato fight it's this : teleport away to avoid an attack, teleport to a kunai close to the target and strike, end of the fight. There is no outsmarting, no clever plan, no multisteps strategy. Just unbelievable speed.
Itachi is mostly the same but more geared toward sheer power thanks to the MS, his best feat smart-wise was his very first apparition against Kakashi & co before the MS. It never really repeated itself and even that was ended with an overkill Tsukuyomi and no clever plan. So best feats except that? Telling Naruto and Bee to throw jutsu into the big ball of doom going to kill them (so clever!) and guessing Kabuto was going to strike Sasuke (not even going to comment on the stupidity of the thing since Sasuke was the only one who could be wounded anyway with Itachi being an Edo...).
So yeah, I fail to see how their fighting styles is about outsmarting their opponents, that's simply not true. The main difference between them and the rest is that others characters will fangasm and tell us how clever, powerfull and pretty they are. I'd prefer Kishimoto to show it directly instead.

Edit : not during battle but I'll admit that the way Itachi rigged Sasuke's eye to shot Amaterasu at Tobi was pretty smart, to bad he doesn't use stuff like that during a fight.