Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Rising Dragon]

If that was it, then the later volumes of StrikerS wouldn't have sold well, but IIRC they did.

[Sansker]

Guys this is about Force. StrikerS, no matter how good or bad was for you, sure has its own thread. So better to get back on track here

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

If that was it, then the later volumes of StrikerS wouldn't have sold well, but IIRC they did.

Well, you have a pont there, i won't commit the same mistake as other people and just assume something is popular or impopular just because of what i see on my near surroundings xDU

But then again, it's very tricky to bring up sale records when talking about the popularity of a work because those usually count the Japanese fandom mostly. Outside fandom have a very low impact on sales xDU And those guys have weird tastes (ViVid is huge success in sales for example while FORCE is just average xDU).

Poor Tsuzuki never knew people hated his beloved rockstar Anti-Villain team xD

the manga is about to reach a new confrontation between Section Six and a chunk f the Huckebien family ...for some reason i'm not very excited about this (probably because the first clash of both parties was pretty lame) ...but well, it will have Curren in the fight and there's also Sonica, i'm at least eager to see what Anti-Shamal can do in battle xD

Originally Posted by Sansker

Guys this is about Force. StrikerS, no matter how good or bad was for you, sure has its own thread. So better to get back on track here

LOL my apoligez, it'r hard to not get carried around by the flow of discussion but it has something to do with the main topic xD

[Sansker]

Well in general Nanoha never get a real hin on western fans to begging with. That is why the StrikerS DVDs haven’t been translated as far as I know (Please correct me if I am wrong, I really don’t know) and I think I get why ViVid can go over too Force all day.

We have been talking about the story in Force and even when I dislike it and others here seem to enjoy it, the reality is that the simplest story might pay off better. The truth is that the first two season had simplistic and overall cute characters, there wasn’t nothing that I can call new and they did go well making each character look different from the rest and have something unique on their design. It had a lot of heart.

Force tries to be more about the plot and fails. The thing is that the characters aren’t impressive, the designs lack the color from previous seasons and the story is so far beyond the tone of previous works that it doesn’t even feel like Nanoha anymore. Is your average shonen show with you average shonen protagonist with a bland personality and a compulsion to do good for no actual reasons. You might want to argue but I am trying to make a point. ViVid on the other hand offers a more colorful, refreshing, simple setting where you don’t even have to thinks, there is a lot more visual and it does feel like Nanoha because recovers the magical girl flag, kind of.

That is my take on it. When I do look deeper in to the Nanoha franchise as a whole I more and more remember why I ever get to look this in the first place: Nanoha and Fate. Yes I am a NanoFate fan but hear me out. I did like the two and I was sad and confuse of why they have been reduce to secondary and minor characters since StrikerS. And my main problem with all this incarnations is that, and mostly that. This is Magical War Lyrical NANOHA Force, so why there is little to no Nanoha on it? And the same I can say for StrikerS, but ViVid give us back that thanks to Vivio and while is of course a bland and boring manga it does make it a lot better than Force, why?

[Nanya01]

The StrikerS DVDs didn't get brought over because neither Geneon nor Funimation did any sort of advertising for those series, thus the sales were really low for S1 and A's, so they never got brought over, sadly.

[Akiyoshi]

LOL it happened in reverse then, StrikerS got no sales in USA due to A's lack of hype xDU

the irony

[Sansker]

Only here of course, back in Japan it’s true StrikerS was the best, at least on terms of numbers. But to be fair I can see why might be popular, even when I can't say it’s good or even superior to the previous incarnation of the franchise.

But back to Force, yes it seems once more Hückebein and the SD6 will fight one more time. The reason why I am not looking forward to it is that every time they have fight in the past… well didn’t change anything, really. First Signum vs. Cypha did move the story but the next battle was long, boring and just kill the story from a perspective where the Silver Cross was the main goal. Hey we even need to make another goal for both the Hückebein and SD6 in order to keep them doing something and I don’t think this new battle will solve anything. In the past most fights use to have some kind of intention, being just stop the bad guys or get the Lost Logia. Here? We don’t know what the Hückebein want anymore and while we do know what SD6 wants, you think they are really going to get the villains now?

[Kaijo]

At least the Hucks have a more coherent backstory than Fate!

[Sansker]

No really, they don’t even have a backstory to speak of. Where they came from? How is that just some of them had Hückebein as their last name? When and how they became Eclipse Drivers? Hasn’t been address so far, and it might be mention in the future but until that, they are lacking one.

Fate is really simple; her mother lost her daughter and wanted to bring her back to life. Precia creates a clone with all her daughters memories but ends up being another person and so she use her to gain the power to revive her actual daughter. What about that isn’t coherent? Action, reaction and consequence. So far is not perfect but very sad and relatable and I think that is why Fate is so popular.

Comparing the Hückebein as characters with Fate isn’t fair. They lose all the time. Why? Fate has not one, but two seasons where she character was mention and we have been able to create a picture of her as a person, even if isn’t the one I will like. The Hückebein are far too new and need time to see if they can pull it off or will fall as the Numbers: a lot of villains with poor development for each one of them.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Sansker

The Hückebein are far too new and need time to see if they can pull it off or will fall as the Numbers: a lot of villains with poor development for each one of them.

Yes, because the Numbers don't have snarky, big sister types like Uno, or battle hardened, stern, but still worry about the younger sisters like Tre, manipulative Quattro, extremely kind older sister who goes out of her way to make sure that all of her sisters are taken care of like Cinque, a childish personality that hides a more perverse and caring side like Sein, or twins like Otto and Deed who come across as silent to those they don't know, but they turn out to be complete chatterboxes that never shut up if they get going, or perhaps you mean Nove, who gets angry easily but was worried sick about all of her sisters, even if she teases Sein about things? Or perhaps you meant Dieci, who, despite being trained by Quattro, turned out to be one of the nicer girls of the Numbers? Of course, there's Sette, who did her best to improve herself, even if it caused her older sisters Tre and Cinque discomfort for having so little emotion and both of them tried to figure out a way to make Sette more like them, that is, having some emotions, even if she can hold it in.

Then there's Due, who, by Jail's own admission, was a work of art with her abilities.

BTW, other than Due, all of that, for the Numbers, was given out over the course of StrikerS, the anime, manga and sound stages.

I didn't even add SSX, other than Due there.

[Kaijo]

Hmm, maybe minimal backstory is best for Tsuzuki, since he completely messed up Fate's backstory. I mean, she had Alicia's memories all this time, and so shouldn't she have thought of herself as Alicia? Doesn't make sense.

So, in that light, we know the Hucks were infected with the Eclipse by scientific experiments, and are shunned by society by their obvious need to kill. Kinda makes an interesting conflict they have going on, then. People just trying to survive, and deliver payback to those still messing around with lives.

[Sansker]

Yeah, that is a take on it, again not StrikerS thread but to be fair: the sound stage and the manga don’t count, why? Because if I need extra material to be able to understand your story, you are failing as story teller. You can’t make them fit in your story? Why you even put them there?

And there is a difference between being actual characters and just shallow figures. The Numbers, sorry to say, aren’t interesting, memorable or even likeable. If you like them, great, but here is thing: they don’t have any development. Half of them are serious, mind on the mission and friendly with the sisters, the other half aren’t serious, they get distracted a lot and worry about their sisters. Guess who fall where. Quattro and Due are the worst of the team, the first one for being a cliché single middle bad girl with glasses and the second didn’t even get more than 3 lines in the entire series. And that is the case for many of them. They are a mess, and is so hard to keep up with who is who if they weren’t named by numbers and had the number on their necks. What the Numbers have is a cliché stereotypical character archetype, nothing more. So you say yourself Nanya, they don’t have. At least as far as I can see. You think they are great, I am happy for you, I don’t like them.

And Fate didn’t think herself as Alice for a very simple reason. Even when the clone has the memories, she creates her own interpretation of such events, creating a new person with the same memories. Is actually a lot good and far more than little for the Numbers and nothing for the Hückebein. Why you seem to dislike that?

[Nanya01]

Sansker, one thing you have to realize about Japan...

They LOVE their extra materials in their anime.

Doesn't work for us in the west, but, guess what?

Anime and manga is made for Japan, not Americans.

So, in that light, the sound stages and manga DO count.

Just because you and others don't like it doesn't mean JACK to anyone in Japan.

And, if you want me to get into it, fine, I will...

What the Numbers have is a cliché stereotypical character archetype, nothing more.

Change that to Fate and you get the same thing.

Cute little girl who's the first real opponent of the main character, wears dark, has a sad backstory laced with tragedy, an abusive parent and doesn't speak much.

How many other anime do you see that in?

Answer: a LOT.

So, don't go pull the "cliche stereotypical character archetype" bullshit, especially since you can apply it to EVERYONE in Nanoha.

[Kaijo]

Except for the fact that Fate very vividly remembered Precia calling her Alicia, which should have caused issues long ago. And there's also the fact that Fate is supposed to be lonely... except that she's had Arf and Bardiche with her all this time. Her characterization is a mess and doesn't make sense. She isn't really likeable.

The Hucks, on the other hand, have been entirely consistent as set up.

And if you think extra materials aren't good enough, then you must agree about not liking the ones from S1 and A's, too. After all, S1 didn't explain Fate at all, except through sound stages. And A's didn't develop her at all, except a little bit through manga and sound stages. But other than that, Fate is a cliched, boring stereotype of a character. That's why she isn't likeable.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

And there was poor me here thinking StrikerS was widely considered the worst of the bunch xD

Oh...and don't forget the ignored people who solidly consider FORCE the worst of the four seasons for that matter xD

...on that note, i am the only one who goes back an re-watched Season One to rediscover it's charm o.o? ..i did it some time ago (like half a year) and i found it quite entertaining and memorable. It took my mind away from the unecessary complexity of StrikerS and the clumsy execution of FORCE, for a good couple of hours. It was very refreshing n_n (Arisaaaaaa xD!).

Season One despite its flaws I think is better than StrikerS and I found myself going back more to it if I were to rewatch stuff. As I go on and on I think the bridge starts to grow wider and wider for me personally.

The thing about season 1 was that yes, there was bad lolicon, generic as hell monster of the week, and bad budget. And the TSAB stuff seems random and contrived. But thematically speaking it's also pretty clear cut; we're talking about Nanoha finding purpose in life and discovering what a magical girl is about, and we have Fate to contrast her. The final conclusion was that with Nanoha's supportive background, strong upbringing, and desire to change the world, that one could accomplish great things while at the same time Fate's lousy upbringing and dismal outlook held her back. But in the end one can see it's more about environment then a predestined course. Hence the name "Fate". It's extremely easy to get but simplicity is its own charm.

It's not the deepest thing, but then again this is the only season that involves Shinbo, and I don't think Tsuzuki was capable of doing that. XD

StrikerS had themes of growing up into adulthood via Nanoha and trying to pass to the torch to the young ones. Unfortunately it was dilluted in each and every way, and sadly our new ones don't even get to take center stage in the next incarnation. Sure it sold better, but in terms of "what's the point", StrikerS fails pretty miserably.

But that's off tangent anyways. I think StrikerS is better than Force though, but I'm hardly fair on that issue, considering the cross-media boundary.

In the end I like the franchise the best when it was less convoluted.

[Nanya01]

I would like to point out that if it wasn't for StrikerS (and crossover fanfiction that got me interested, then TVTropes), I wouldn't have even bothered to get into this series.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Except for the fact that Fate very vividly remembered Precia calling her Alicia, which should have caused issues long ago. And there's also the fact that Fate is supposed to be lonely... except that she's had Arf and Bardiche with her all this time. Her characterization is a mess and doesn't make sense. She isn't really likeable.

The Hucks, on the other hand, have been entirely consistent as set up.

And if you think extra materials aren't good enough, then you must agree about not liking the ones from S1 and A's, too. After all, S1 didn't explain Fate at all, except through sound stages. And A's didn't develop her at all, except a little bit through manga and sound stages.

It didn't 'cause issues because somewhere along the line Precia started calling Fate, Fate, and not Alicia. I don't think children put a whole lot of stock into their names, and after a year or so of being called that it stuck with her. We never saw the scenes to where that transition took place. Season 1 explained Fate a ton, which makes me beg the question...were we watching the same thing? Compare her to any other character in the franchise, and she is second to none in terms of development. Considering you bring this point up yourself every chance you have, I'm not sure how you can refute it. From mysterious tragic magical girl with unconventional upbringing who never smiles to who she became in A's and StrikerS. And it wasn't a direct transition either, A's emphasized how her past trauma affected her. With Lindy particularly, when Lindy tried to touch her she would flinch, or when she was asked what she wanted to eat, she would never decide for herself because she didn't want to be a bother. And sorry, just because you have a magical device and a pet familiar, that doesn't mean you won't be lonely. Fate wanted her mothers love, and that was her greatest desire. Any child shunned from a mother who once loved her would feel a similar way.

"Her characterization is a mess and doesn't make sense. She isn't really likeable TO ME.."

Sorry had to do it. And she's the most popular character. Deal with it

Also, I still find it laughable how she's on your favorite character list. She was clearly a favorite at one time. I wonder what happened, hm...

[Kaijo]

Sorry, Demi, thought I was being obvious enough with what I was doing. I should have suspected you'd come out. :P

To be honest, I'm just taking Sansker's arguments about Force and turning them around to showcase how absurd his arguments have become. You're right, I do like Fate, as I like *all* the characters (though Vivid is trying my limits). But that's also because I'm honest with myself in looking over the information given to us thus far, and seeing that there is no real issue with Hucks.

As you noted, liking or not is subjective. What isn't, are the things Sansker is trying to argue, about us not having information that we were indeed given. It's fine for Sansker to not like Force or the Hucks; but lying about specific information we were given *multiple times* is disingenuous, and unhelpful to those who come here looking for information.

Sorry you felt dragged you into this. :P

[Justin_Brett]

Yeah, I can argue better than that, and I kinda suck.

[Sansker]

Good thing StrikerS is here then, Nanya, I have read some of your fanfiction and I really like them. But back to what we were talking about.

I am afraid I need to explain the “extra material” yes, they made it, I know. But I have seen a lot of anime and get the characters without need of reading the extra, so why here I should need it and be a good thing? Nanya, there are animes made for Americans, not just Japanese. Trigun is a perfect example of an anime that was safe because is popular here even when is not doing so well there. Is not a matter of culture, is a matter of storytelling, you don’t need me to read extra in order to get your plots.

I guess the simplest of acts did get you more invested. Yes, they are all cliché and we have seem the story a million other times BUT the first seasons had a heart on them. They tell the story with a real connection, how? To make it about the characters. For me is Nanoha and Fate’s struggle what holds the first season together and sorry but the overall arcs on StrikerS lost that connection because they are too many to keep the track. And that is why I say “cliché stereotypical character archetype bullshit and nothing more” the lost connection to the audience and to show a rather simple story with a more centric characters will help to make them feel more alive and to connect with them.

And in the end, without season one and A’s there would be no StrikerS or Force. So we really should not be considering them inferior when they aren’t.

Fate is being hate here a little, but if she is like the Numbers, as Nanya says, they why they get a free pass and she doesn’t? I mean she isn’t a mess, she is very consistent. She has people around here but she doesn’t want to see them because she is so busy reaching out for her mother. Fate even realize that by the end that Arf and Bardiche were always with her even when she was just running to get her mother back. You can see why she wants that, you can see how Precia does use her and she does want to have just a smile and a warm mother as before. How is that not likeable?

The Hückebein seem to be rather inconsistent. First they don’t care if they kill SD6 members but then they do. First they don’t mind killing any people that is unlucky enough to cross path with them and later they do. First they want the Silver Cross no matter what and then they don’t… yeah consistency, right there. Just saying guys, is a matter of what you like better. I think we can agree on that we can’t agree on this.