[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[40511]

Here is something i read on other board about possible solution to Ep6..

Spoiler for .:

No. of people on the island(ignoring the 18 vs 17 here)

1 Krauss
2 Natsuhi
3 Rudolf
4 Kyrie
5 Hideyoshi
6 Eva
7 Rosa
8 Battler
9 George
10 Jessica
11 Maria
12 Shannon
13 Kanon
14 Genji
15 Kumasawa
16 Gohda
17 Nanjo
18 Kinzo(dead)
19 Erika

From red truth,

Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda...were not involved in the murders of Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler.

'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over! Acknowledged.

the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.

Know that it is forbidden for blue truth to be used if based on the argument that the window seals of the next room over were torn at the time of the logic error.

The one who rescued Battler was, without a doubt, Kanon.

We have a list of people who were either not involved or dead.


1 Krauss(not involved)
2 Natsuhi(dead)
3 Rudolf(not involved)
4 Kyrie(dead)
5 Hideyoshi(not involved)
6 Eva(dead)
7 Rosa(dead)
8 Battler(in guest room)
9 George(next room over)
10 Jessica
11 Maria(dead)
12 Shannon(next room over)
13 Kanon(rescuer)
14 Genji
15 Kumasawa(next room over)
16 Gohda(not involved)
17 Nanjo(next room over)
18 Kinzo(dead)
19 Erika

So, Jessica, Genji, Erika are the only possible people who can go to the guest room and kill Battler.

However, I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.

Thus, there exist a way to be excluded from "everyone else".(or else Kanon cannot rescue Battler either!)

How can one be excluded from "everyone else"?
1. Outside of the island, e.g. Ange
2. Dead, e.g. Kinzo, Rosa
3. In next room over, e.g. Nanjo
4. Culprit X, and/or accomplice(s)
5. In the guest room, e.g. Battler

In Kanon's case, since 1-4 is not possible, the only way he can be excluded is 5(in the guest room)

For Erika, as someone posted, she is dead before things happen(a solution to the 18vs17 people).
So, who is piece-Erika throughout the whole episode?
Piece-Erika is Culprit X, which is Jessica!
This actually explain things in the real world, re-killing in the first twilight, checking on Battler, etc

Genji is possible to be Jessica's accomplice(helping her kill in first twilight).

I hope this help people with their theories and such.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by 40511

How can one be excluded from "everyone else"?
1. Outside of the island, e.g. Ange
2. Dead, e.g. Kinzo, Rosa
3. In next room over, e.g. Nanjo
4. Culprit X, and/or accomplice(s)
5. In the guest room, e.g. Battler

In Kanon's case, since 1-4 is not possible, the only way he can be excluded is 5(in the guest room)

Which would mean that if Kanon is the Other Battler. (Which is an avenue curiously unexplored very well in this puzzle, as everyone's concentrating on Shkanon...)

But according to the red, Kanon has to have entered after Erika entered the room. At the moment of the location check, he would have to be with Battler in the room, to dodge the location check by being the other Battler. But the room has been sealed, and at the moment Erika finished dealing with the bathroom trap, Ushiromiya Battler was not in the room...

...wait, that actually works, sort of.

Kanon is the Other Battler and is in the guest room. Our Battler is floating around somewhere. Erika seals the room with Kanon inside. Kanon leaves the room while Erika is dealing with the trap.

Someone shoots Kanon, (Battler, who escaped the location check by being Kinzo, for example) and injured, he runs back to the room, locks the chain, hides in the closet and dies.

[winter 923]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Speaking of the author theory...
I have a feeling that Hachijou is lying. There are actually three authors.
One for Ep1-2, a very different one for Ep3-4, and possibly Hachijou herself for Ep5-6.
Thoughts?

thank you! I already did doubt that there are only 2 Authors. Not only does Tooya say that she does not read other Authors works (or did she say gets bored from other works?). But there is a difference between the episodes.
1-2 disbelieve in magic.
I do not see a connection between 3-4(aside Ange). EP3 is still a murder while 4 is pure magic (but then its a year or more ago i read this)
5-6 i could rant all day about those EP's. they miss the point and also go a very different way than any EP before. (in both eps battler dies/get trapped and the game never ends)

Personaly i think these Author works (5,6+?) are supposed to be incomplete, to show us answeres but not spoil us till the end.


Can someone help me out. does "19" "this was the number of years it took to reach this unavoidable day." mean that it had to happen because of what happened 19 years ago or that it had to happen sooner or later?

[Jan-Poo]

@40511

The exclusion of the people in the next room over cannot be stated with certainty. It is true that Dlanor sealed the use of blue text, but that doesn't mean that blue was wrong by default.
This red truth

Know that it is forbidden for blue truth to be used if based on the argument that the window seals of the next room over were torn at the time of the logic error.

Only specifies that it is forbidden to use it, because of the seal. Proof that this red truth doesn't implies that this forbiddance cannot possibly be overcome is the fact that Erika later tries to use the blue text about this argument, she fails, she order Dlanor to remove the seal on the blue text and at that point she is able to say it.
It is quite clear that Erika believes that the "seal" on that blue truth by no means implies that any argument of that sort is invalid. Else why she used it?

It should also be noted that Dlanor in EP5 sealed the use of the red truth about Kinzo being already dead. And we know that red truth is actually valid.

Additionally Beatrice could have simply said "the seal of the window of the next room over is intact". If that was true that would have been a wonderful checkmate.

In the end there's nothing that proves that the seal of the window of the next room over wasn't broken.

That being said.

The idea that both Kanon and Battler were in the same room before the sealing is to be excluded, because Kanon entered after Erika.

Oliver's theory also doesn't work. There must be three different bodies that exited/entered the room.

There would be also a problem with the "everyone else". Supposing that Battler may refer to Kanon or Battler. Whichever GM-Battler decided to pick as the one inside the guestroom, the other one must figure in the "everyone else".


In the end Kinzo-Kanon has still the upper hand.

[DgBarca]

Just...I have been reading EP3 and for the first twilight...I must say thay Eva=culprit only works WITH the FFT. Why ? Kinzo. Even if she doubted that Kinzo was already dead, his corpse shall be hidden somewhere in the study or in Natsuhi's room (EP5).
But if there is not FFT, and if the culprit is not the servants, then only Krauss, Natshui and Nanjo could have committed the crime because they knew where Kinzo's corpse was hidden.

Ha !! And the key of Kinzo's study was not found on Genji.

[Jan-Poo]

Well what do you mean?
I'd say that Eva can't be the FT murderer precisely because of Kinzo. What she has to gain from burning Kinzo's corpse?

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well what do you mean?
I'd say that Eva can't be the FT murderer precisely because of Kinzo. What she has to gain from burning Kinzo's corpse?

Yeah exaclty, Eva wouldn't have burn Kinzo's corpse, so if the FT was fake to begin with it would work, because the servant have something to gain from Kinzo's death but not Eva, then Eva killed them when breaking the closed room. But if the FT was not faked and if Eva was the culprit, Kinzo corpse would never have been burnt.

Why Nanjo is so suspicious for the FT ?

[Kirroha]

At the end of Ep6, Lambda said something about Bern once being someone's piece... I couldn't help but think that was Rika. Rika lost sight of her goal and completely lost the will to live, and just left everything to Bern, that made sense. And Bern, after swarming through a million kakera and finally finding Rika's happy world, she abandoned her. Something like that? And Lambda's Takano won all the time because she had a certain willpower...?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Speaking of the author theory...

I have a feeling that Hachijou is lying. There are actually three authors.

One for Ep1-2, a very different one for Ep3-4, and possibly Hachijou herself for Ep5-6.

Thoughts?

We'll know for certain if ep7 has a completely different authorial "style." It would be trivial for ryukishi to get away with this without telling us, as he's shifted Bernkastel into the Game Master's seat (quite literally), and can try to handwave everything as "well that's how she does it." But perhaps it's not how she does it...

If that pattern followed, we'd wind up with something like:

• EP1-2 Author: Original message bottle writer "Ushiromiya Maria." Introduces the mystery and the anti-mystery/anti-fantasy conflict and the rules, but provides few clear answers; asks us to find the truth.
• EP3-4 Author: A writer who used an internet alias. The first writer to indicate knowledge of the epitaph solution, and the first to figure out what magic is, but didn't know the final answer.
• EP5-6 Author: Hachijou Touya, or a person claiming to be him/her. Took credit for prior episodes. Introduced new elements, radically shifted focus off the game board, and generally behaved like a hack writer. May have discovered several fundamental truths, but hid them exteremely well through real or feigned incompetence as a writer. Follows the Knox rules strictly.
• EP7-8(?) Author: Identity unknown. Writing style unknown, but if based on Bernkastel GMing and the preview from various sources, is a person who has discovered an enormous amount of facts and intends to convey them in a manner that dispenses with excessive literary or meta-elements, attacks the notion of "Beatrice," and downplays romantic involvement. May be responding to the EP5-6 Author. May be the latest writer chronologically. May follow Van Dine's rules strictly.

Mere speculation of course. We'll have to see ep7 to know for sure.

EDIT: Another possibility is that every episode other than 1-2 has a different author.

[June 1983]

Originally Posted by Kirroha

At the end of Ep6, Lambda said something about Bern once being someone's piece... I couldn't help but think that was Rika. Rika lost sight of her goal and completely lost the will to live, and just left everything to Bern, that made sense. And Bern, after swarming through a million kakera and finally finding Rika's happy world, she abandoned her. Something like that? And Lambda's Takano won all the time because she had a certain willpower...?

You've got it a bit wrong, I think. Rika was left to fight for a way out of Higurashi by the Game Master, who was almost certainly Featherinne. (And Hanyuu had to have been another piece of hers ... in fact, Lambda's description of Rika's master sounds so much like Hanyuu it's a little creepy). Bernkastel didn't exist properly until after Higurashi was over, when she split off from Rika in Saikoroshi-hen. (Well, this is what most people interpret as the truth.)

[40511]

@ Jan-Poo

I don't get it. Why Kanon must enter the guest room after Erika? Am i missed something here?

And i do agree Kinzo-Kanon is one good theory here. Along with Shkanon, they are both developed to bypass the red in EP6.

[Jan-Poo]

There are a few reds.

At the time Battler was rescued, only Kanon entered the guest room.
The rescuer' means someone who reset the chain lock after Battler undid it

The "rescue" is clearly related to Erika's chainlock. The second red here clearly defines what the rescuer is and by the extension what the rescue entails.
The "time of the rescue" can't be a time before Erika entered the room, because there was nothing to be rescued from until that point. Erika confirmed she's the one who set up the chainlock.

Therefore by the first red, Kanon must have entered at the time of the rescue. Which means, after Erika.


@DgBarca
But why Eva would have killed the servants while they faked their death?

[Leafsnail]

Kinzo-Kanon could work. Let's say Kanon found the gold already, and is therefore officially the new head of the Ushiromiya family. Battler's blue truth about Kinzo's name being passed on with the headship was never denied, so I guess that could work fine (and I guess Kanon could've walked into the family conference during ep4, holding a gold bar and declaring himself the new Kinzo).

Other Battler is a bit shakier. Battler and Kanon are different people. Only Kanon entered the room... you run into all the same problems Shkannon brings up.

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

@DgBarca
But why Eva would have killed the servants while they faked their death?

She noticed the trikery, and thought it was related with Kinzo's game. The epitaph, so she killed them to prevent any servant to solve the epitaph before her.
Moreover it's clear that Eva despises the servants.

[Acinem]

about lambda,aurora and bern.. that is difficult.. bern was that i game with logic error.. that game didn't have goal.. higurashi had goal, be alive after june 23(i think).. if we knew who was game master of higurashi thing could be easy.. it was lambda or aurora.. but bernkastel was good in higurashi(good by her poems).. but bern said her became cruel and evil thanks to aurora. yet hanyuu was good.. so things are messed up.. i think there might something hapend after higurashi, before umineko

[40511]

@ Jan-Poo

I see your point..

You are stating that Kanon cannot be in the guest room before Erika because there was nothing to be rescued from, no chain lock to reset.

I dont think the second red implies "because the chain lock is there for him to reset, therefore, he is the rescuer", but rather " because he is going to reset the chain lock when it happens, therefore he is the rescuer", of cause Kanon wouldn't know he need to reset the chain lock to rescue Battler.

Like, you are a lifeguard because you are going to rescue people from drowning when it happens. Not because there are people drowning and need to be rescued, so you are a lifeguard.

[Jan-Poo]

@Acinem

I think it's simply that Bernkastel, Featherinne and Lambda have nothing to do with the characters in Higurashi. Featherinne doesn't even have horns, if she's Hanyuu what happened to her horns?

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

@Acinem

I think it's simply that Bernkastel, Featherinne and Lambda have nothing to do with the characters in Higurashi. Featherinne doesn't even have horns, if she's Hanyuu what happened to her horns?

She does have horns, they're just explained in a different way.

Spoiler:

And comon, don't say the end of ep6 didn't make you think Higurashi...

[Burkie]

I thought it was confirmed that Bernkastel was the collective memory of all the Rika's who participated in Higurashi, she even said ni-pah in the Ep2 ????. And either her or Lambda also mentioned the game that always began on June 20th as well, from that and Lambda and Bern having played against each other in a game before I assumed they were both in Higurashi (as well as the whole 34 thing).
As for Featherine, I assumed that she was Hanyuu, who was the actual game master of Higurashi, but wasn't bothered solving the Logic error and so forced the responsibility onto Rika. As for the horns... She's a witch, I'd assume she could change her appearance Her memory aid does looks a lot like them though

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Kinzo-Kanon could work. Let's say Kanon found the gold already, and is therefore officially the new head of the Ushiromiya family. Battler's blue truth about Kinzo's name being passed on with the headship was never denied, so I guess that could work fine (and I guess Kanon could've walked into the family conference during ep4, holding a gold bar and declaring himself the new Kinzo).

I'm pretty sure this would count as claiming another person's name. Plus, while it might be possible to argue that Kanon inherited Kinzo's name (just like Beatrice 2 inherited Beatrice's name), you need a better argument than just "because he succeeded the headship". We know that there was no practice of passing the personal name of the head down to the next head, and I've never heard of anyone doing that anyways.


@40511: Don't forget that if Erika is a dead person, no one else can take her name. So if Jessica is somehow going under the name Erika, it must mean that no girl named Erika ever had anything to do with the island.