Copyright infringement (DMCA) notices for unlicensed anime

[plasmacutter]

Originally Posted by bayoab

It sounds like they were given contractual free reign. There is nothing that limits them to Singapore if they were contractually given the rights to enforce them anywhere. It basically comes down to, are they an authorized agent for more than Singapore. The wording of this site goes in both directions.

you expect their own site to admit to their geographical limitations?

[Lesqual]

Originally Posted by bayoab

It sounds like they were given contractual free reign. There is nothing that limits them to Singapore if they were contractually given the rights to enforce them anywhere. It basically comes down to, are they an authorized agent for more than Singapore. The wording of this site goes in both directions.

US law makes this even more fun since they might even be allowed to without having explicit authorization for the US but IANAL and I don't know where to even begin looking since there is so little information on what they have to begin with.

I think they MIGHT get the implied right in the US if they were the sole distributor/licensor - if a person wanting to establish a US licensed distribution would have to go through ODEX to get it.

Otherwise, it seems like they'd need explicit authorization to act as the studio's copyright agency.

But the notice doesn't say that - it notes that bayTSP is filing the action as an agent of ODEX. Is there a legal requirement for that connection leading back to the original copyright holder? If there is, then it should read that bayTSP is filing the action as an agent of ODEX, which is acting as an agent of XYZjapanStudio. If such a legal requirement exists, is it possible that the copyright has been sold to ODEX full-stop?

[plasmacutter]

Originally Posted by Lesqual

is it possible that the copyright has been sold to ODEX full-stop?

"possible" but exceedingly unlikely, otherwise xyz japanese studio would not be the one licensing it to us distributors, it would be odex as the new owner of the rights.

since this is never the case in any announcements by american firms picking it up, odex is committing fraud.

[DigimonTamer]

Lots of legal talk in this thread

However, what does all this really mean for the current fansub scene?

[zalas]

Originally Posted by DigimonTamer

Lots of legal talk in this thread

However, what does all this really mean for the current fansub scene?

It means "begun, the takedown war has"
Actually, on a more serious note, takedowns do have been getting more numerous recently, as copyright holders are wisening(?) up to the availability of illegal copies of their works. So much for using nicovideo as a PVR... <_<;

[Lesqual]

Originally Posted by DigimonTamer

Lots of legal talk in this thread

However, what does all this really mean for the current fansub scene?

That you have a small percent chance of being targetted, hunted down, and sued for obscene amounts of money under laws that you don't understand because you aren't interested in 'legal talk'. That public contributors to the community have a very high chance of being targetted, and that a retributive boycott may be called for, before this shit becomes standard practice and you have an internet war on your hands, where people have to migrate to a new site every few months because the old one gets taken down.

Given the fact that 95% of otaku are online in one form or other, and 75% of them are internet-culturally literate, and the fact that the community transcends national boundaries...

A punitive boycott could have a serious effect.

Just as word of mouth has created millions in sales outside east asia, so it can take it away. "Don't buy anything from this company - they're evil. If you pay them for that, you're paying them to sue my friends..." could actually work.

[hobbes_fan]

You know I'm cool with it. Anime is just a drop in the ocean of shared info with most studies showing around 50% of all traffic is torrent/p2p based, well lets just say I wonder what would happen if we all went back to 56k or low bandwidth plans. ISP's are screwed, studios are screwed, licensors are screwed, fans are screwed.

Maybe its time to step back and let everyone fuckup. A long time ago bands made most of their money through live tours instead of shitty cd's overprocessed cd's. TV shows made their money through advertising and merchandising. Not through video sales. Fuck it let the entertainment industries cannibalise themselves

[cbmfive]

Originally Posted by Lesqual

Just as word of mouth has created millions in sales outside east asia, so it can take it away. "Don't buy anything from this company - they're evil. If you pay them for that, you're paying them to sue my friends..." could actually work.

Um...don't get all self-righteous about it. Unless a copyright holder has specifically given permission to distribute their product outside their own distribution channels, doing so is not exactly legal under today's international laws. If you want to keep doing something illegal, you have three choices:

1. Be able to absorb any penalties.
2. Change the laws.
3. Not get caught.

Option 3 is the only realistic one for millions of existing fansub viewers. I suggest that if you don't want to get caught, then maybe you shouldn't be using a distribution method that is so easy to track, it practically files its own lawsuits. Bram Cohen never designed Bittorrent to be an untraceable distribution channel for copyrighted materials, he designed it to be an optimum way of distributing large files. In order to achieve that single purpose, he did not attempt to address issues like anonymity or dependence on central points of failure.

For people who want to argue the finer points of legal issues (regardless of their ability to do so in a useful fashion), there are endless points to discuss.

For people who want to continue watching fansubs, your only option NOW is to not get CAUGHT, and Bittorrent is far from ideal for that goal. It's time to look into other options.

[Lesqual]

Originally Posted by cbmfive

Um...don't get all self-righteous about it. Unless a copyright holder has specifically given permission to distribute their product outside their own distribution channels, doing so is not exactly legal under today's international laws.

Most fan activity is illegal - it is not explicitly authorized by the content owner, and includes plenty of original IP or unauthorized derivative works which do not incorporate parody or criticism.

That doesn't mean people don't get self-righteous when (hypothetically) Disney sues HannahMontanaFans.com, formerly the number one fansite with hundreds of thousands of members, run by a 9 year old girl who shelled out $1000 of allowance to see her in concert, for a million dollars (the value of what they would have charged for being in the official fanclub).

When you have an institution which has basically popularized their entire genre of intellectual property internationally, and which was tolerated for decades, I think it's damn appropriate to get self righteous when they start attacking that institution.

[Lesqual]

Okay, this is a seriously seedy company. To the point that their directors post social condemnation on forums, they claim to be trying to save Japanese anime (which is 'bleeding to death'), have previously been arrested for copyright infringement themselves, and apparently have editted their wikipedia entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odex's_...t_file-sharing

Their cases are getting thrown out of even Singaporean courts on the basis of not being exclusive distributor or copyright holder.

[cbmfive]

Originally Posted by Lesqual

When you have an institution which has basically popularized their entire genre of intellectual property internationally, and which was tolerated for decades, I think it's damn appropriate to get self righteous when they start attacking that institution.

These actions appear to be initiated and supported by the studios responsible for producing all of the content in question.

Perhaps this indicates that the abovementioned popularization hasn't had nearly the level of benefit generally assumed within the community? A lot of time is spent here claiming that anime studios would collapse without our benevolent pirating. The reality is that our market is a fraction of their revenue, and our local distribution houses are the only ones getting any sort of benefit from this form of "advertising."

Like I said, don't try to soothe your conscience this way. If you want to download anime, accept that it's probably not legal and that you need to take steps to avoid being caught.

[Quarkboy]

I actually DID forward the email I received to the original Japanese studio (in my case, satelight), although a bit anonymously

I asked if it was real or not. In any case, assuming that satelight reads the email sent through the contact button on their website, they should be aware of what it going on now.

[Lesqual]

Originally Posted by cbmfive

These actions appear to be initiated and supported by the studios responsible for producing all of the content in question.

Perhaps this indicates that the abovementioned popularization hasn't had nearly the level of benefit generally assumed within the community? A lot of time is spent here claiming that anime studios would collapse without our benevolent pirating. The reality is that our market is a fraction of their revenue, and our local distribution houses are the only ones getting any sort of benefit from this form of "advertising."

Like I said, don't try to soothe your conscience this way. If you want to download anime, accept that it's probably not legal and that you need to take steps to avoid being caught.

Soothe my conscience? Self righteousness doesn't require guilt. And illegally downloading anime doesn't either. I said that they have had a great amount of benefit from foreign fansubbers, and I meant it - I wasn't struggling with some internal demons. There is a reason that the only japanese cartoons anyone can recall before videotapes existed was Speed Racer and Voltron. Obviously if they start suing fansubbers, everybody will have to cover their ass.

Just as 9 year olds would have to watch the hell out when making fansites for Disney flicks, if the above example were true. The fact that someone can be sued for something and probably lose doesn't make it right or wrong.

As I said before, if this is studio-authorized, a boycott could be in order. Of course they wouldn't go bankrupt - they've built up too great a fanbase. But the calculation on their part would be that this is going to cost them less sales than they gain in downloaders going legit. If the fansub community proves them wrong, they may stop suing the fansub community. It hasn't stopped the RIAA, but the fans of the RIAA's clients havn't been in anywhere remotely as good a position as the otaku community to form a counter-movement. Particularly since if it's the action of a certain studio or other, there are plenty of alternatives (whereas music is mostly within 5 major labels).



There is doubt, however, looking at OPEX's wikipedia page, that this is studio authorized.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Lesqual

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odex

Their cases are getting thrown out of even Singaporean courts on the basis of not being exclusive distributor or copyright holder.

Can you please stop trolling? It's getting repetitive and boring.

If BayTSP and ODEX are authorised agents of Japanese anime copyrights holders, they have every right under current international treaties to warn ISP providers about their users. That is the very least any company can do to try to protect their property or their clients. The decission whether their methods result in sufficient evidence to make cases against copyright infringers rests, quite frankly, on the hands of your local law enforcement authorities and courts. That's all there is to it.

You all know anime fansubs is a shady business. Granted, most of us believed the probability of such events ever coming to pass was low, but that isn't to say that probability never existed. Whether we like to admit it or not, we're breaking international law. What we're discussing here are the loopholes on how to get around the law. Kind of ironic, don't you think?

I certainly wouldn't mind the crowds moving away from BT for a while. Our IRC channels need more people talking, that's for sure. But that's probably not going to happen.

[Lesqual]

I understand that, and I never intended to troll.

My points are whether they are actually internationally authorized copyright enforcement agents of the original copyright holder, and what to do if they are (as a legitimate response, not just "go underground").

Based on the opinions from Singaporean judges on wikipedia, there's a serious possibility that they aren't, and they are operating the RIAA's $3000-or-we'll-sue-you scheme (with added -and-throw-you-in-Singaporean-jail) as a fraudulent extortion enterprise within Singapore.

[WanderingKnight]

If BayTSP and ODEX are authorised agents of Japanese anime copyrights holders, they have every right under current international treaties to warn ISP providers about their users.

Am I missing something here? Why the hell go after FRENCH users who don't even speak their language!? Do they want to become Team Singapore or something?

In what twisted sense does the international market affect ODEX's sales?

[idjot]

So how widespread are these actually? Are they sending it to every person that has ever downloaded one of their series? Or is it a few isolated events? I guess time will tell. Damnit if they wanna scare people it's working.

[Trance]

Originally Posted by DigimonTamer

Lots of legal talk in this thread

However, what does all this really mean for the current fansub scene?

Honestly, I don't what's going to happen myself. Maybe we'll just have to wait and see how this thing goes.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Toua

I certainly wouldn't mind the crowds moving away from BT for a while. Our IRC channels need more people talking, that's for sure. But that's probably not going to happen.

Please note that according to BayTSP's website they also monitor activity through IRC channels. Although I highly doubt they pay attention to anime (that's more likely the realm of hollywood movie download sites, etc).

[Trance]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

Please note that according to BayTSP's website they also monitor activity through IRC channels. Although I highly doubt they pay attention to anime (that's more likely the realm of hollywood movie download sites, etc).

Well, I guess that they might keep an eye out for anime on mIRC as well while they're at it, don't you think?