Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[ThoHell]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Would it be accurate to say the Meisters don't care about Celestial Being as an Organization and it's integrity beyond giving them something to fight about? I mean, Setsuna running off to pick a fight with members of his own organization because of their outrageous conduct isn't how you run a military organization. If anything, his actions will ensure Nena is never punished.

Considering how the "Observers" are the apparent decision makers and that they are required to reach a consensus in order to expell/punish members, Setsuna running off to pick a fight distracts from the original crime, and gives those members who are supporting the Thrones an oppurtunity to play politics. Basically what Nena did was wrong, but what Setsuna did was also wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right and I'm sure because of what Setsuna decided to do will cause the whole affair to be dropped and forgotten.

That's assuming anyone would have a problem with what she did.

Really, if someone in the American military did what she did, she'd be court martialed, tried, and executed. If Celestial Being has anything approaching a system of due process, which there doesn't seem to be, then lobbying a protest and an explanation would have been in the best interests of the organization, in order to maintain discipline.

Of course, from all appearances Celestial Being is a very, very informal military organization, showing a level of professionalism that even a group of hired thugs could manage. They're more like weekend Counterstrike players who use hacks than an elite military fighting unit.

Even though the Meisters are part of the CB gang, I wouldn't doubt that they would fight against them if they felt it was to stop war. Don't forget, these guys are using warfare and destruction to supposedly stop others, by making themselves the main focus. each Meister has his own reason/code/conduct/belief, if they find their allies to go against their own belief, they will most likely fight them. And that guy who keeps standing on the roof by himself, I believe is up to something and going to cause chaos and be the main focus as an enemy soon.

[Tkpenalty]

Man Graham is ownage... only one problem, he might die from the G forces. Anyway, back to what I was going to say. Now the union has a Gundam's arm with a hole to enter as well as a beam sabre. I think we are going to see a flag with GN arms pretty soon.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

My advice, don't mind them. It's not like UC is that same thing for everyone's eyes... It's their opinion anyway...What can we do? IT IS the most recent...you expect a new fan to say," OH that was Char-like!?" That's so....Elite and arrogant. Let them watch Gundam 00 to their enjoyment....

I don't recall expecting anybody to do or say anything....

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Really, if someone in the American military did what she did, she'd be court martialed, tried, and executed. If Celestial Being has anything approaching a system of due process, which there doesn't seem to be, then lobbying a protest and an explanation would have been in the best interests of the organization, in order to maintain discipline.

The only problem with all of that is, CB doesn't answer to anyone, that we know of, and the World Powers can't hold them accountable, which has been proven by thier previous defeats. CB can pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it atm. Truth be told, they have the power right now to do as they please, which this is what the Trinity siblings have been doing.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Would it be accurate to say the Meisters don't care about Celestial Being as an Organization and it's integrity beyond giving them something to fight about? I mean, Setsuna running off to pick a fight with members of his own organization because of their outrageous conduct isn't how you run a military organization. If anything, his actions will ensure Nena is never punished.

Considering how the "Observers" are the apparent decision makers and that they are required to reach a consensus in order to expell/punish members, Setsuna running off to pick a fight distracts from the original crime, and gives those members who are supporting the Thrones an oppurtunity to play politics. Basically what Nena did was wrong, but what Setsuna did was also wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right and I'm sure because of what Setsuna decided to do will cause the whole affair to be dropped and forgotten.

That's assuming anyone would have a problem with what she did.

Really, if someone in the American military did what she did, she'd be court martialed, tried, and executed. If Celestial Being has anything approaching a system of due process, which there doesn't seem to be, then lobbying a protest and an explanation would have been in the best interests of the organization, in order to maintain discipline.

Of course, from all appearances Celestial Being is a very, very informal military organization, showing a level of professionalism that even a group of hired thugs could manage. They're more like weekend Counterstrike players who use hacks than an elite military fighting unit.

One problem. There's no indication that these Thrones are actually part of the organization itself. THe observers didn't know anything though they decided to accept them for the time being at Alex's questioning.

It's like if a group of people link up with an American Special Ops forces claiming to be another branch of it with the commanders accepting them since they have no other info coming in from the brass.

With Ian's investigation, it's definite that these Thrones could very well be imposters. So even if the observers wanted to vote the Thrones out, how can they?

[musicalcroc]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Would it be accurate to say the Meisters don't care about Celestial Being as an Organization and it's integrity beyond giving them something to fight about? I mean, Setsuna running off to pick a fight with members of his own organization because of their outrageous conduct isn't how you run a military organization. If anything, his actions will ensure Nena is never punished.

Considering how the "Observers" are the apparent decision makers and that they are required to reach a consensus in order to expell/punish members, Setsuna running off to pick a fight distracts from the original crime, and gives those members who are supporting the Thrones an oppurtunity to play politics. Basically what Nena did was wrong, but what Setsuna did was also wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right and I'm sure because of what Setsuna decided to do will cause the whole affair to be dropped and forgotten.

That's probably why Lockon points a gun at Setsuna in the preview. To remind him that his action is plain thoughtless. But why Lockon did not stop the kid from the start is the problem.
I agree that Setsuna's action just worsens the matter. But Setsuna is not Setsuna if he does otherwise. To be fair, no Meister besides Setsuna fights against the Thrones even when they really disapprove of the Thrones' action.

[aeriolewinters]

I don't recall expecting anybody to do or say anything....

But you are implying that they shouldn't use SEED as reference, what you said is nitpicking their methods just to stick in your own...

As to why Setsuna would suddenly go against the Thrones, It has something to do with him Being the "Gundam".

Engraved in his memory is the moment the 0-Gundam saved his life, as a civilian. For him to see these Thrones do the opposite somewhat enraged him. I'm all for a defection from Setsuna for it is not for him to be used like this. He certainly has his own dreams banished by the fact that the observers no longer support them.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by ThoHell

Even though the Meisters are part of the CB gang, I wouldn't doubt that they would fight against them if they felt it was to stop war. Don't forget, these guys are using warfare and destruction to supposedly stop others, by making themselves the main focus. each Meister has his own reason/code/conduct/belief, if they find their allies to go against their own belief, they will most likely fight them. And that guy who keeps standing on the roof by himself, I believe is up to something and going to cause chaos and be the main focus as an enemy soon.

It was a rhetorical question. I know the Meisters are impulsive maggots and understand that Setsuna running off to fight whomever is in character for him, but I'm wondering if him doing that was a mistake since if Celestial Being really wants to accomplish anything, it has to maintain it's integrity by keeping it's people in line, while maintaining even a very basic code of conduct.

"You're not worthy of being a Gundam Meister", well I haven't seen anything that would indicate one has to be all that worthy to be one in the first place. You a monkey? Can you use a joystick? You fit in this suit? You in.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Crusader

The only problem with all of that is, CB doesn't answer to anyone, that we know of, and the World Powers can't hold them accountable, which has been proven by thier previous defeats. CB can pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it atm. Truth be told, they have the power right now to do as they please, which this is what the Trinity siblings have been doing.

Not holding anyone accountable for anything within an organization is anarchy and such an organization would not exist for long.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

But you are implying that they shouldn't use SEED as reference, what you said is nitpicking their methods just to stick in your own...

.............................

*ahem* My post said what I believed Terra and Spitfire meant in their posts about the comparisons. I did not at any time say anybody should compare 00 to anything or nothing else. Now, may I ask you to please stop misinterpreting what I'm saying? I will be honest and say that I find your tone and misinterpretations a bit insulting and annoying...

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

One problem. There's no indication that these Thrones are actually part of the organization itself. THe observers didn't know anything though they decided to accept them for the time being at Alex's questioning.

That is true. The Throne's came out of nowhere, but were accepted without question. That is simply stupid, even without hindsight.

It's like if a group of people link up with an American Special Ops forces claiming to be another branch of it with the commanders accepting them since they have no other info coming in from the brass.

The analogy is flawed, but acceptable on the basis that a spec ops team would presumably ask questions of their saviors before shooting them. Unfortunately Celestial Being maintains too much secrecy literally for it's own good.

With Ian's investigation, it's definite that these Thrones could very well be imposters. So even if the observers wanted to vote the Thrones out, how can they?

Getting the B-Team to take them out is the most likely outcome. Setsuna's forcing the issue and leaving an oppurtunity for people to play sides.

[Demongod86]

Okay I have seen a lot of people get anal about Johann not reprimanding Neena more. What do you want him to do? Rip at her with a beam saber? Scream at her before the start of a mission? Come on now...

As for everyone comparing Saji to Kira Yamato, allow me to reiterate...

Kira was an orb citizen working on programming of some ridiculously advanced robotics along with some of his classmates...on top of that, he was astoundingly brilliant and so was able to completely reconfigure the strike gundam in O_O time. Everyone just takes it for granted that KID GETS GUNDAM. Yet if you stop and think about it, Kira was a nerd on the level that'd make any child prodigy today blush. "Jesus" Yamato--not just from the onset of GSD, but the first moment of SEED, was a mode of perfection that'd make the 1972 Dolphins look worse than their 2007 counterparts.

Saji is nowhere near this. If he'd try to hop into a flag, please recall that despite these new shiny flags, the only one able to land anything on a gundam is Graham. Need I remind you what happened to Joshua, Howard, and the other Overfodder pilots?

At least next episode will be gundam vs. gundam (FINALLY).

9/10 for me on this one since it *is* perfect BUT had no meaningful gundam vs. gundam!

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Okay I have seen a lot of people get anal about Johann not reprimanding Neena more. What do you want him to do? Rip at her with a beam saber? Scream at her before the start of a mission? Come on now...

Would saying "You're my sister, but you're evil and I have to kill you" have been inappropiate considering what happened?

As for everyone comparing Saji to Kira Yamato, allow me to reiterate...

Kira was an orb citizen working on programming of some ridiculously advanced robotics along with some of his classmates...on top of that, he was astoundingly brilliant and so was able to completely reconfigure the strike gundam in O_O time. Everyone just takes it for granted that KID GETS GUNDAM. Yet if you stop and think about it, Kira was a nerd on the level that'd make any child prodigy today blush. "Jesus" Yamato--not just from the onset of GSD, but the first moment of SEED, was a mode of perfection that'd make the 1972 Dolphins look worse than their 2007 counterparts.

Saji is nowhere near this. If he'd try to hop into a flag, please recall that despite these new shiny flags, the only one able to land anything on a gundam is Graham. Need I remind you what happened to Joshua, Howard, and the other Overfodder pilots?

I agree. Saji's not going to fight. He's a good enough guy to know he has to be there for Lousie now. Not running off on some mad quest for revenge.

At least next episode will be gundam vs. gundam (FINALLY).

They'll go at eachother like an old married couple with nerfbats.

[musicalcroc]

My two cents. The way Sumeragi's group works (I want to differentiate them with the real CB, which is in the dark) is really unprofessional. But the lack of discipline/accountability seems to hint that CB actually doesn't care about the Meisters at all. It's like CB releases some wild beasts into the world and watch what happens next (yeah there is something called Veda's plan but no one besides Tieria seems to take it seriously and nothing happens when the plan is violated).
And the voting principle of the Observers is quite... impractical. It's almost impossible to reach 100% agreement (well, they did with the Thrones but it's like out of curiosity). No wonder they can't decide anything.

[Shinji103]

Well, I certainly agree that Saji most likely won't become an MS pilot to get revenge. (it's just not in his nature, he's not a violent OMG YOU HURT MY GIRLFRIEND SO DIE!!! character) I can still wish for it, though. Like how Demongod wishes that Kira Yamato was perfect, lol.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Would it be accurate to say the Meisters don't care about Celestial Being as an Organization and it's integrity beyond giving them something to fight about? I mean, Setsuna running off to pick a fight with members of his own organization because of their outrageous conduct isn't how you run a military organization. If anything, his actions will ensure Nena is never punished.

Considering Nena's actions, Setsuna attacking her would be fully within the ideals of what CB have shown up until now. What she did was in no way different than the terrorists attacking innocent bystanders, and we know how the CB responded to that. Just because she is technically a part of CB, does not mean she is allowed to perform the very same unreasonable actions as the ones CB has been shown to target and get away with it. The rest are arguable, but if he justifies his attack with going after Nena, i would say that supports the ideals of CB.

Yes, it is rash and there might be more "official" ways to go about it, but the second Nena pulled the trigger on the wedding party she essentially became akin to those whom CB seek to destroy.

[Crusader]

It sucks for the couple who got married though. Jeez... putting time into all that just get blown up. Some celebration. No weddings for me....

[ReddyRedWolf]

Makes me wonder if Saji and Louise will differentiate the Meisters from the Thrones.

On one side they know that a Gundam saved their lives then another ruined theirs.

[allenephilim88]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Considering Nena's actions, Setsuna attacking her would be fully within the ideals of what CB have shown up until now. What she did was in no way different than the terrorists attacking innocent bystanders, and we know how the CB responded to that. Just because she is technically a part of CB, does not mean she is allowed to perform the very same unreasonable actions as the ones CB has been shown to target and get away with it. The rest are arguable, but if he justifies his attack with going after Nena, i would say that supports the ideals of CB.

Yes, it is rash and there might be more "official" ways to go about it, but the second Nena pulled the trigger on the wedding party she essentially became akin to those whom CB seek to destroy.

The question here is who are really the heads of CB and what is their true objective. If the Thrones are really part of CB and not some random team formed by other folks then killing innocents doesn´t seem to be an important issue for CB. The other gundam meisters on the other hand are more... "caring" about human lifes (except for Tieria, because he already stated that he didn´t care if civilians died in ep 7). Now I wonder, which one is more sadistic, Michael, Nena or Hallelujah??

[ThoHell]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Considering Nena's actions, Setsuna attacking her would be fully within the ideals of what CB have shown up until now. What she did was in no way different than the terrorists attacking innocent bystanders, and we know how the CB responded to that. Just because she is technically a part of CB, does not mean she is allowed to perform the very same unreasonable actions as the ones CB has been shown to target and get away with it. The rest are arguable, but if he justifies his attack with going after Nena, i would say that supports the ideals of CB.

Yes, it is rash and there might be more "official" ways to go about it, but the second Nena pulled the trigger on the wedding party she essentially became akin to those whom CB seek to destroy.

It seems that when people say CB they're referring to Setsuna's group, but I highly doubt they're the original CB or the only. Only reason we consider them THE CB is becuase they're the group that we began the series with. I think there are several CB groups out there with there own way to doing things (humane or not), but they all seem to have just one common goal: destroy the destroyer to stop the destruction. Just because Setsuna's group chooses to stay within a certain mindset doesn't mean all Cb's are suppose to follow that same mindset. Their ordeal is nothing ideal, Setsuna's group have commited acts that would fall into the realm of terrorism as well, just because they haven't lately and the new Meisters are doesn't mean that they haven't. Basically the CB's are just a group of people with individuals who share the same goal, so if any individual felt their goal is threaten by those around them all hell breaks loose. The CB's may plan strategies professionally, but these guys aren't professionals, they're just highly skilled warriors with powerful toys.

Nena isn't punished by her group because basically all 3 siblings have somewhat of the same mindset but the way they display it is different. They're just battle hungry murderers. The oldest brother may act cool, but he's most likely the most dangerous of them all because he is so set in his train of thought that such actions are natural and unquestionable to him. Basically he fins it normal, while the other 2 murder out of anger and frustration.