[Manga] Chapter 341 Discussion

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by abazou

It was said that Wind user techniques (Naruto) cant beat Fire user techniques (Sasuke) on the other hand wind makes fire stronger. So even if sharingan cant escape it... It wont need to in Sasuke's case.

-Oh please, you're over-glorifying Sasuke's Katon jutsu a bit here. It's not that one element cannot beat the element that opposes it. In the case of both the Fuuton and Katon jutsus, Fuuton is supposedly weaker than Katon and anytime the 2 would colide, if the Fuuton jutsu was lower than or at the same level as the Katon jutsu it would only serve to increase the Katon jutsu's power. But, should the Fuuton jutsu surpass the Katon jutsu then the elemental weakness will no longer be a "big" factor in that clash. Sasuke had better hope that he has a Katon jutsu that matches the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken in strenght or else he will be up Shit's Creek without a paddle (considering his strongest Raiton jutsu are weak to Naruto's Fuuton abilities).

[juggen]

I was wrong, naruto's new technique was pretty badass

[Soulnin]

Originally Posted by chuckcsf

Ghey! Nothing too spectacular. So again we go back to the question, what changed in Naruto? We've seen that soo many times where he tricks the opponent into attacking his clone thinking it's the real him then he surprises him. I don't think this will work on Sauske since he could probably see through his trick and he's too fast to be hit by that attack. Ofcourse the attack was pretty powerful and impresive and I guess Naruto did not get caught in the explosion but rather, was exhausted.

-Well so what if he's done that before thats just an advantage of Kagebunshin isn't it?
-Sasuke cannot see which Naruto is a clone and which is real, that was anime filler, so who can say it wouldn't work. I doubt kishimoto would use that same scenario again though.

-Does the fact that Naruto just single handedly beat a powerful Ataksuki not signal a change?

[chuckcsf]

Originally Posted by Soulnin

-Well so what if he's done that before thats just an advantage of Kagebunshin isn't it?
-Sasuke cannot see which Naruto is a clone and which is real, that was anime filler, so who can say it wouldn't work. I doubt kishimoto would use that same scenario again though.

-Does the fact that Naruto just single handedly beat a powerful Ataksuki not signal a change?

Well, signal a change but doesn't show a change. The only change I see in this chapter is Kakuzu's reduction of power and smarts.

[Soulnin]

Originally Posted by chuckcsf

Well, signal a change but doesn't show a change. The only change I see in this chapter is Kakuzu's reduction of power and smarts.

My fault. That should have been signify not signal.
Don't forget that even though we know Naruto's nature, Kakazu would not. He's seen what a deadly jutsu Naruto has and was lucky Naruto messed up the last time. Now if you were in that situation for a second time, would you mess around with clones again or would you go take out the one holding that beast of a jutsu? Its not that Kakuzu was dumb just that Naruto was smart.

[astayanax]

Originally Posted by Soulnin

My fault. That should have been signify not signal.
Don't forget that even though we know Naruto's nature, Kakazu would not. He's seen what a deadly jutsu Naruto has and was lucky Naruto messed up the last time. Now if you were in that situation for a second time, would you mess around with clones again or would you go take out the one holding that beast of a jutsu? Its not that Kakuzu was dumb just that Naruto was smart.

Kakuzu should not have leave himself undefended first of all. You have to remember that even though he was fighting Naruto, there were a handful of other ninjas there waiting to jump him even if he did kill Naruto and as he already took quite a bit of damage from Kakashi etc, he should know that this would be retarded.

Second, Kakuzu is capable of huge wide range destructive attacks, and even though he did lose some hearts, I am positive he had enough chakra left to barrage Naruto and companys with jutsus to force the real one in the open or at least to prevent the real one from attacking since it took both Naruto and Yamato's combined jutsus last time to save their necks.

Third, Kakuzu has a ton of experience and his personality (up to Naruto) was that of a cautious and calculating one. Assuming he doesn't know Naruto's personality, he should had been thinking of 'what if'. As it is, he didn't.

In short, Kakazu is retarded. I am not saying what Naruto did wasn't smart.... but it shouldn't had worked so easily. The victory was just cheesy and once again make Akatsuki underrated. Why do you think people are questioning Itachi's strength now if he is supposingly the 'ultimate' ninja? It is because of this crap that we are seeing from the supposingly world's strongest villian organization.

[Mists]

Naruto did this vs Sasuke on the rooftop, he suddenly appeared over him, and yet Sasuke as a chuunin recognized this and countered. Now consider speed increases and consider that Kazuzu is an Akatsuki member...

Yeah I didn't buy this whole encounter 'arc'. It started off ok, now it's plain unbelievable. No one even mentions Naruto's fast speed, it would have been a bit more believable...but sheesh...

It feels like Kishi just wants to end this manga to start his new bright idea manga...his love for Naruto seems to have ended, though I have a feeling his love will come back when there is another Sasuke encounter...

figures

[kikko_s]

A little disappointing of a chapter. Nothing really new, it's just that this time Naruto got the jutsu to hit. If he had gained extra speed or maybe did something even just a little different...

I think Kishi just got lazy this week.

[Zero system]

Originally Posted by Zek

I think the stupid part was his "ignore the 3 shadow clones" tactic. He had 8 tentacles but he didn't save a single one for self-defense, even knowing that 3 of them were attacking him from behind. He was retarded not to realize that 3 Narutos can create the jutsu, clones or not. Not only that, but he assumed that they wouldn't be capable of performing any sort of attack that would damage him should it hit him. It was a laughably flawed strategy, and I think it's disappointing that this huge oversight was the only way Kishimoto could think of to let Naruto land a hit.

its not realy flawed because he went all out on the "real" naruto holding the jutsu, so we can assume he intended to finish him quickly before the 3 other clones attack

according to Kakuzu he could ignore the 3 other not because they were insighnificant but because if he kills the real one they dissapear before having the chance to attack him

it is a risky but very valid strategy against the old naruto

[cheese no koma]

itachi's days as an akatsukian might be numbered. Naruto was able to defeat an itachi clone that has 30% of his power with the help of kakashi, seeing now IF naruto is twice as strong, he would be able to better defend himself against ita, and IF sasuke's on the same level as the current naruto, then it might not be long before sasuke seeks out his brother for a piece of him.

[ein]

I didn't like this chapter. How stupid can Kakuzu be? Why act as if he's so sure that his target would be the real Naruto? How predictable is that?

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by ein

I didn't like this chapter. How stupid can Kakuzu be? Why act as if he's so sure that his target would be the real Naruto? How predictable is that?

More than a few people are claiming that Kakuzu began suffering from "plot induced stupidity" as soon as Naruto showed up.

Kakuzu showed himself as an intelligent fighter. He had tons of experience and claimed to have even fought the First. He thought enough ahead to break out of Shika's kage mane and even chided him for thinking he could be caught so easily. He had Kakashi near death twice. He did underestimate Shika, but how was Kakuzu suppose to know he was an uber genius?

Kakuzu just doesn't seem like the same fighter once Naruto arrived. Oh well. These two had to be defeated somehow.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I don't see how he was that fast. He was caught by Kakuzu's tendrils just like Kakashi was and had to be bailed out. He landed the hit mostly because of distraction and surprise. Though I admit he is swift, still no evidence of him being faster than Kakashi without use of the Kyuubi.

Naruto actually managed to get so close that he could hit Kakuzu with his hand. Nobody else managed that after Kakuzu transofrmed to his tentacle form. Just look at how he got 3 ninja (including Kakashi) with his tentacles from middle range. His tentacles are not only very fast and strong but also can reach quite far. He was able to catch with them multiple jounin ninja. For example he caught Asuma and the other 2 jounins. That's why Naruto's taijutsu performance was outstanding.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

When did Yondaime ever use 50 clones to perform Hiraishin? I don't remember that at all. You're right that it is unusual to use KB in this way though.

In the Kakashi gaiden ha defeated 50 enemies with his teleport jutsu, he ordered the remaining konoha ninja to prepare 50 special kunai and throw them at the enemy. It was not explicitly shown, so this is only my opinion. It could be that he killed them using only his own body, but than he would have to teleport and kill 50 times in an instant, and that sounds insanely overpowered to me, that's why i think he used 50 kagebunshins each teleporting at one enemy.

But the main point was that no elite ninja ever used his ultimate jutsu as a clone and not with his original body. For example the now strongest known ninja Itachi was not able to use his MS jutsu when he fought as a clone (With a perfect copy of himself with 30% of his original chakra, very similar to the current situation where Naruto has 3 clones, each with only 25% chakra). So Kakuzu was just following a good logic when he assumed that only the real one will make such an ultimate jutsu.

Originally Posted by Hunter

So what? It's like saying that because Kakuzu destroyed Naruto's Kage Bunshin the first time Naruto shouldn't have used this jutsu again, it just doesn't make sense. Kakuzu didn't have any chakra issue, heck he was confident he could still take them all.

When Naruto used his kage bunshin moves multiple times the opponents just laughed at him, saying/thinking that he is stupid to waste his chakra for a move that already failed. And they were right, except that Naruto had his kyuubi powerup always to save his ass. Kakuzu might be confident, but he knows that there are still multiple opponents and that other Konoha forces may arrive at any moment. Which is true, if we consider that Konoha has sent 20 teams out to search for akatsuki. The other important thing is that Kakuzu probably did not want to use his elemental jutsu against a clearly stronger elemental jutsu, he even commented that he will crush Naruto before he uses his elemental jutsu.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Remember when Zabuza was tricked by Naruto and Sasuke's combo? Now that was impressive because there wasn't a "why didn't he use this?" aftertaste.

It was cool. However that "water prison" jutsu was so obviously made just to make Sasuke and Naruto fight Zabuza that i think we could whine more about that than Kakuzu's possibly flawed logic.

Maybe Naruto has a secret bloodline: he can suck away IQ from his opponent during the fight, so he becomes smarter while the opponent dumber
The ultimate bloodline

Originally Posted by Hunter

My sole complain is that with just one more chapter showing Kakuzu trying (yet failling) with all he had Kishimoto could have made the fight much better.
I'm not saying that Naruto wouldn't have been able to win if Kakuzu had used all he got, I'm saying Naruto's victory would have been even more impressive if he did.

I agree, and also i think that these two chapters were filler-like, that extra fighting could have gone to these two chapters as 5 pages to each chapter.

[gibits]

Originally Posted by abazou

It was said that Wind user techniques (Naruto) cant beat Fire user techniques (Sasuke) on the other hand wind makes fire stronger. So even if sharingan cant escape it... It wont need to in Sasuke's case.

Only if the jutsus are of the same strength does this hold true. Sasuke might be good at fire but his main element is lightning (pretty cool combo BTW). With Naruto's new jutsu i think its safe to say any flame Sasuke uses will backfire (pun!).

[kishinfoulux]

meh. people complained about naruto's lack of progress than he comes in and pwns an akatsuki member and people complain about it. i dont understand people.

naruto outwitted kakuzu. i dont see why its so hard to except that? hes done it plenty of times before. just because he is akatsuki doesnt make him infalliable. and they obviously want to show that naruto's new attack is made of serious bad assery. I think they accomplished that.

[gibits]

Originally Posted by kishinfoulux

meh. people complained about naruto's lack of progress than he comes in and pwns an akatsuki member and people complain about it. i dont understand people.

naruto outwitted kakuzu. i dont see why its so hard to except that? hes done it plenty of times before. just because he is akatsuki doesnt make him infalliable. and they obviously want to show that naruto's new attack is made of serious bad assery. I think they accomplished that.

Like I said before, bait and switch is the oldest trick in the book because people still fall for it. Naruto out witted Kakuzu plain and simple, Naruto doesn't need elaborate planning like Shika because all he needs is one hit.

Not to take anything away from Shika but he needs good planning to make up for his lack of power. On paper Shika should lose every battle, but he doesn't.

[Souten no Seigyoku]

Hmm... I still havent recovered from last weeks massive dissapointment. Nor am I convinced Kakazu's dead. Nor should I be. considering how many times they do this in manga/anime.

Shouldnt kakazu's body be literally torn to shreds? At least like Hidan's IMHO. Instead the body falls relatively intact to the ground. Im betting hes still alive, but beat up or something. He cant be dead.

If he is dead... then it totally makes up for last week. As it shows that Naruto is so strong that he can take out a powerful enemy in 2 attacks as if it were some easy-kill shlub. Thus finally matching Sasuke's overpoweredness.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Souten no Seigyoku

Hmm... I still havent recovered from last weeks massive dissapointment. Nor am I convinced Kakazu's dead. Nor should I be. considering how many times they do this in manga/anime.

Shouldnt kakazu's body be literally torn to shreds? At least like Hidan's IMHO. Instead the body falls relatively intact to the ground. Im betting hes still alive, but beat up or something. He cant be dead.

If he is dead... then it totally makes up for last week. As it shows that Naruto is so strong that he can take out a powerful enemy in 2 attacks as if it were some easy-kill shlub. Thus finally matching Sasuke's overpoweredness.

I don't think he is dead either due to the fact that his body is still intact. But he only have 1 heart left now and very beat up. Between Kekashi and Yamato, they should be able to handle him.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Zek

...Naruto appears to have gained a tremendous amount of speed...

When using Kyuubi chakra, Naruto has always been fast. There is no surprise there. And that speed is not actually running speed, it is more like jumping speed (although don't know how one compare to the other). But, despite that quickness, Kakuzu noticed Naruto, unfortunately being in the air and having concentrated on a totally different opponent, he didn't have the time to respond. If he were to be in the ground, the result might have been different.

...compared to the almost-insta-kill of the Rasengan, but he hasn't improved its delivery in the slightest - in fact, he now needs two clones to prepare it instead of one, and that's assuming he still hasn't learned to do a regular one one-handed.

What delivery are you talking about? In the original Rasengan, he has to stick to the rasengan ball till the end, whereas in the new one, the ball activates after it leaves his hand. That is a big improvement. And, in the final form, assuming the shuriken part of the jutsu means something, he should be able to throw that making it a pretty powerful short-mid-long-range capable attack. At that time, possibly, Rasengan will be erased from our minds.

And, the time to create the ball is pretty short as long as he has the clones with him. In a duration that is much shorter than the attack time of the clone, Naruto has already generated another Rasengan-Shuriken.

Originally Posted by Zek

He was retarded not to realize that 3 Narutos can create the jutsu, clones or not. Not only that, but he assumed that they wouldn't be capable of performing any sort of attack that would damage him should it hit him. It was a laughably flawed strategy, and I think it's disappointing that this huge oversight was the only way Kishimoto could think of to let Naruto land a hit.

Anyone, who sees the execution of the jutsu will have to become "retarted" to not ignore the one carrying the rasengan-shuriken compared to the clone-lookalikes, be it original or clones.

Getting attacked by the clones might cost him to a single heart, but getting attacked by that jutsu could cost him all of his hearts. If he had divided his attention to the clones, and the one carrying the Rasengan-Shuriken would be the original, and if that division could have costed his life once again, would he have become retarted too?

Originally Posted by Hunter

My sole complain is that with just one more chapter showing Kakuzu trying (yet failling) with all he had Kishimoto could have made the fight much better.

That fight is Kishimoto's answer to the Asuma fight. Most probably, Kishi thought that portraying Kakuzu struggling a little bit more wouldn't have changed anything at all or would have made Naruto even more amazing that he currently is.

Originally Posted by ShikaShika

This was a good display of Naruto's strength, but Naruto just showing up and killing an Akatsuki member in one hit?

If Kishi has already considered Naruto becoming stronger than Kakashi with the training he had and that jutsu, why not?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Naruto actually managed to get so close that he could hit Kakuzu with his hand. Nobody else managed that after Kakuzu transofrmed to his tentacle form. Just look at how he got 3 ninja (including Kakashi) with his tentacles from middle range. His tentacles are not only very fast and strong but also can reach quite far. He was able to catch with them multiple jounin ninja. For example he caught Asuma and the other 2 jounins. That's why Naruto's taijutsu performance was outstanding.

Yeah, that was a distraction not pure speed. Naruto used 3 clones to create an opening then attacked Kakuzu from his blind spot. Remember, with his tendrils Kakuzu can attack any direction from any range, but he's still limited to his field of vision to control where the tentacles reach. Nevertheless, Kakashi basically did the same thing earlier when he took out Kakuzu's heart with his Rakiri. His tendrils weren't extended, but it doesn't matter because he never saw Kakashi coming to begin with. Not only that, but Kakashi was fast enough, to run over to Kakuzu, free Naruto from his grasp then carry him back to safety before Kakuzu could reach them. All he had was a few seconds of opportunity allowed from Yamato's mokuton attack. If Naruto had actually dodged any of Kakuzu's attacks then I might consider the fact that he got faster.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

In the Kakashi gaiden ha defeated 50 enemies with his teleport jutsu, he ordered the remaining konoha ninja to prepare 50 special kunai and throw them at the enemy. It was not explicitly shown, so this is only my opinion. It could be that he killed them using only his own body, but than he would have to teleport and kill 50 times in an instant, and that sounds insanely overpowered to me, that's why i think he used 50 kagebunshins each teleporting at one enemy.

Wow. That would've made Yondaime a chakra powerhouse. No one's use that amount of clones besides Naruto. Then there's the additional chakra of each one performing Hiraishin. I always believed that he was just teleporting among the kunai extremely fast.

Originally Posted by kishinfoullux

meh. people complained about naruto's lack of progress than he comes in and pwns an akatsuki member and people complain about it. i dont understand people.

naruto outwitted kakuzu. i dont see why its so hard to except that? hes done it plenty of times before. just because he is akatsuki doesnt make him infalliable. and they obviously want to show that naruto's new attack is made of serious bad assery. I think they accomplished that.
Today

It's a lack of good pacing. The fight switched instantly from Naruto getting whupped to him owning Kakuzu in an instant without any kind of struggle in between. Still, Kakuzu gave a lot of Konoha ninja a run for their money before getting defeated. We also have to keep in mind that Kakuzu was also "softened up" by Kakashi and the others before Naruto arrived fresh and energized.