2012-01-12, 23:30 | Link #881 |
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I think the A-class stuff is pretty meaningless. A-class is just the very baseline to be considered a pro; it's reaching 4th dan when the top is 10. We had a hall full of A-class players at just the highschool level.
National kid's tournament is big fish small pond stuff too. I think there's only one thing we need to know about Shinobu, and that is that, as Queen, she is currently the strongest (female) karuta player in the world. She is at the pinnacle of the game. She's crawled to the top (or very close to it) of the heap against the players of any age and experience. And yes, if she made A-class at age 10, that means it took her 4 to 5 years playing at that level to do it. Arata might have been just as monstrous as her at the elementary level, but having taken a break for longer than a year, or having not even played yet in any top-level tournaments, I personally find it improbable to say he'd be a match for her even a year from now. He's (I presume) got the potential, sure, but definitely not the hard-won experience of four years in the grinder of competitive karuta at the highest level. Think about it, really, without regard to Shinobu herself or her age: is Arata close to a level right now that he could take on the Meijin? How long do you think it would take him to truly get there? Because that's the actual level of play Shinobu represents right now: the best in the world, the Queen. (Although, despite being the youngest Queen in the history of karuta, it's true that we can't say for sure yet either whether Shinobu is one of those "eternal" masters who can maintain her legacy. I presume it would become true eventually, but there's no real basis for that yet. A couple in-universe years from now, though, I would love to see Chihaya and Shinobu developing a rivalry where they keep swapping the title back and forth continuously .) While Shinobu right now might not be quite an equal to, say, what Arata's grandpa at his peak would've looked like, you have to let the title of Queen count for at least that much. (For the record: it seems that while the titles are separated by gender, all competitive karuta matches with the exception of the title matches themselves are played without any division by gender. Furthermore, a yearly exhibition match is indeed put on between the Queen and Meijin of karuta. Scarily enough, the one for this year took place just 5 days ago on January the 7th, lol. The top update on the national competitive karuta webpage which came on the 4th was an announcement with a link for the upcoming match's livestream.) Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-01-13 at 00:16. |
2012-01-12, 23:57 | Link #882 |
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Oh, I agree with you there, I just don't agree with the way Anh_Minh was portraying it, that Arata and Queen wasn't in equal footing even at elementary level.
Personally the way I look is: kid Arata >> Kid Shinobu kid Arata >>>>>>> kid Chihaya Now: current Shinobu >>> current Arata current Shinobu >>>> current Chihaya current Arata > current Chihaya a year or two from now: future Shinobu >= future Arata futuret Shinobu >> future Chihaya future Arata > future Chihaya So far based on what we've being shown Arata is the only player (other than perhaps Chihaya) that would be capable of rising in level of title contention which makes that potential match interesting. Personally I don't think Arata is currently capable of beating Shinobu and I agree that a year might not be enough make up the 1 1/2 years of inactivity along with 1 1/2 of limited participation. But I do think it would be a decent/competitive match given a year or two. Frankly both Nishida and Taichi are good examples, they both have 3 years of in activity yet with some intense training, they are right back being competitive in their peer competition and Nishida is currently just slightly weaker than Chihaya. And with all that's been shown, even with the time off, Arata should still be the stronger player between him and Chihaya and that makes him a better opponent for Shinobu. Granted Title contention is is much harder, but unless the manga suddenly decides to focus on college players, right now Arata still got the best shot of current gen to reach to Shinobu's level, which makes the potential match promising. BTW, the current real life Meijin and Queen are both beasts, the queen's currently won 8 straight and the last 3 was against the same person and is only 22 and has not lost in any of her title match in best of three(16-0). Meijin is currently 14 straight and is only 33 and is 42-10 in his title matches (best of 5) and at one point has won 28 straight. Both are the youngest title holder in their respective gender.
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Last edited by Undertaker; 2012-01-13 at 00:21. |
2012-01-13, 02:35 | Link #883 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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And I'm saying it's a feeble excuse. Considering how important Karuta was to him and his grandfather, they could easily have done something about it. My conclusion is that if he could have followed Shinobu's path, he would have. Or at least, that I'd like to hear the explanation of why he didn't, because "I didn't feel like it" and "I couldn't afford it" sound utterly unconvincing right now.
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2012-01-13, 03:07 | Link #884 |
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And for me it's MUCH MORE convincing than Shinobu not entering Elementry National when those tournaments count toward ranking, low level or not. She have to start at somewhere, and she doesn't even have to win to advance her rank.
We seen enough players in Chihaya's peer that have class qualification in elementary and they still enters Elementry Nationals as Nishida did. There is absolutely no reason at all why Shinobu won't enter in elementary and then decide to enter in Middle and High School Nationals when the competition level she face in those tournament are still the same and perhaps weaker consider her playing tenure against her opponents' tenure. As weak as Arata's reason might be, there is at least a concrete reason. I have no problem picturing a mature kid decided himself that he'll wait to join a club until middle or high school and doesn't want to trouble his family over it. But let's just stop here because if you can't even accept that possibility than this debate really is pointless.
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2012-01-13, 08:13 | Link #885 | |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Just a note on the tournaments, based on the info from the Japanese wikipedia because what is on the English one is rather sparse...
As most people already know, there are 5 classes from E (lowest) to A (highest), corresponding to different dan levels (or ~experience, for D and E class): Quote:
for 1-dan (and thus a rise to C class), 3rd place in a D-class tournamentAs others have noted, it is also possible to obtain 1-, 2- or 3-dan if a delegate at one's (officially associated) karuta group determines that the player is of the appropriate level. However, to reach A-class, players HAVE to obtain the results noted above. NB: it is not possible to drop from A-class once you have reached it, but there are other requirements if you want to rise further in dan-level, which, in a manner of speaking, goes further than merely obtaining the Meijin or Queen position. Obtaining either position just once, for example, only gets a player to 7-dan. According to the English wikipedia, there are about 50 official tournaments each year that count towards dan ranking. I would expect that the major cities have a few each year, with smaller prefectures having just one (or even none: i.e. players from those prefectures would have to travel to another prefecture to compete). That's for tournaments that are contested in the different classes. ===== There are also tournaments, however, that are contested by age group. The school level tournaments (elementary, junior high, senior high, university) feature amongst these. Their results have no impact whatsoever on class rankings. In elementary, players compete in their year levels. From junior high (I think - otherwise it'll be senior high), the individual tournament is split into the various classes. However, it still does not count towards the dan/class rankings <=this was just wrong. mea culpa. ===== Finally, if it helps... Character background for Chihayafuru (no spoilers, unless you count home city a spoiler...) Shinobu: first year high school, Kyoto Arata: first year high school, Fukui (prefecture, city) and a map, so you might get an idea of where Fukui prefecture is in relation to the major cities of Japan... My personal opinion about this debate: it's best to wait and watch the show and then continue with the manga if you have to.
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Last edited by karice67; 2012-05-05 at 23:17. |
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2012-01-13, 08:47 | Link #886 | |
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2012-01-13, 16:12 | Link #887 | ||||||
I disagree with you all.
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Also, who said anything about him being forced to have a job and why? We know he has a job, but it could simply be for spending money, or to keep busy and away from karuta after his grandfather's death. Or did they say he dropped out of school? Quote:
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Plus, I have my doubts on whether he could have become as strong as he did without regularly playing against lots of other kids instead of just his grandfather. Quote:
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2012-01-13, 16:44 | Link #888 | |||||
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Besides, if you're are welling to use those reason to explain her not entering Elementry National than same can be said that Arata's grandpa is protecting him from A-rank competition until he was in middle school, it's just too bad that he had stroke and later paralysis. Quote:
As for the tournament, it was his grandpa that drove him to all the nationals, not his parents. If anything, it's one thing to ask for a ride it's another to ask for money. Quote:
How she A ranks is unknown, so you can't that elementary Arata is weaker than Shinobu when Arata has an actual record that has been show to us thus far. Again, no one is saying that Arata is on par with Shinobu right now, but based on what was shown, the implication would be that he is pretty damn close if not surpass Shinobu at least when they are back in elementary level. And base on projection, current Arata might still be the best competition Shinobu could have within her peers. But let's just wait and see, since this debate doesn't seem to go anywhere.
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2012-01-13, 17:02 | Link #889 | ||
I disagree with you all.
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2012-01-13, 18:17 | Link #890 | |
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The only reason I used that theory was because it is more believable than any excuses I can think of for Shinobu somehow not entering National Tournament in elementary. But that's stop this topic here, considering we seem to be at a point of agree to disagree and I'm fine with that.
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2012-01-13, 22:48 | Link #891 | |
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I think if they started playing during childhood, they would meet one another already. Some players would become too skillful and become bored. So, they withdraw from their peers. As long they stay qualified, some exceptionally talented players rather practice alone. Once a while, they would visit some "inferior" tournament. I think they are looking for special someone.
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Last edited by GundamZZ; 2012-01-14 at 00:15. |
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2012-01-14, 03:29 | Link #892 | |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Though apologies anyway, my previous post was slightly erroneous. That was about rising by measurement of ability. Besides ability as proved in the tournaments (or a representative at one's karuta group), there are two other ways for someone to reach A class. Spoiler for Japanese:
Spoiler for English:
Whether Shinobu reached A-class by tournament or by recommendation may be revealed later, and I'm not going to speculate. For Arata, we know that he won the Fukui tournament, perhaps in his 2nd or 3rd year of junior high school. (edit) And personally, I also think he's the kind of person who'd have abjectly turned down advancement by recommendation. Anh_Minh, one thing I think you are forgetting is that Arata, being from Fukui, wouldn't have access to as many tournaments that 'count' as someone from a major city might - the Fukui tournament takes place just once a year. It would have been terribly inconvenient for Arata's family to take him to any other major tournaments. Shinobu, on the other hand, is from Kyoto. What I basically want to say is...being the youngest person ever to obtain A-class doesn't necessarily mean that person will beat another person who hasn't achieved that ranking.
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Last edited by karice67; 2012-01-14 at 03:59. |
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2012-01-14, 07:18 | Link #895 | |
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2012-01-14, 12:56 | Link #896 | ||
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Now that I know a little more about karuta, I have to say that the most amazing "take" ever was that first card from Arata. Chihaya has never played competitive karuta before, and she takes a card from the back row at the right hand of the top player at her grade level in Japan. That scene is completely awesome. So I disagree with the assessment that future Chihaya can't defeat Shinobu. On raw talent she may have everyone beat. I think she can win against Shinobu, and will. (Not in this match, though!) Did you notice in Chihaya's brief envisaging of the future Queen title match, her opponent has brown hair, not black? Plus Chihaya sees herself sitting in Shinobu's position, relative to their current match? Chihaya doesn't even imagine Shinobu as her future opponent! Scary!
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2012-01-14, 13:22 | Link #897 |
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Well I'm kind of surprised it didn't happen sooner, but we've essentially entered the realm of flat out super powers with the Queens introduction. I guess there's no other way to portray the pinnacle of the game than this, but it still feels pretty unlikely. A player moving so fast a camera can't even pick it up? Really?
Well I've always felt that this show's greatest weakness is in how it portrays the actual game of Karuta, and that it's greatest strength is how it portrays it's characters and motivations and how ultimately they all have the same goal and are good reasonable impassioned people, but the Queen doesn't seem to have any of that sort of drive anymore having already reached the top, though I did sense maybe a little bit of regret that she basically has to play alone at the top now and that she strongly desires a rival. In any case she seems like a bizarre amalgamation of all the top Karuta players in the show so far. She has Arata's skill taken to Saki style super power level, Chihaya's personality is hidden in their somewhere judging by their similar reaction to each others shirts, Taichi's calm demeanor is on display when she plays, but we've yet to confirm what here actual deal is as a character and if I'm right in my earlier assumption. For this reason I kind of have to consider her the weakest character to date...at least in her initial introduction. I'm kind of hoping to see them go more into this character in the coming episodes if she's still around and prove me wrong by giving her the kind of story arc we've come to expect out of this shows characters, but for now this episode just didn't seem to have the same sort of realistic and human feel to it that prior episodes have. |
2012-01-14, 13:27 | Link #898 | |
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I don't think this means she doesn't recognize Shinobu as her future opponent. Besides, she still doesn't know the full extent of Shinobu's strength, so her perspective on things is bond to change once she realize this.
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2012-01-14, 19:01 | Link #899 | |
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All the same, the animation of the scene is curious, since the imagined scene is overlaid upon and displaces the actual one. The effect is to make the absence of Shinobu striking, as if it were significant somehow. But all in all I agree that that is probably a red herring.
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2012-01-15, 04:05 | Link #900 | ||
I disagree with you all.
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