Downloading an OVA (unlicensed) is not illegal?

[Plastic]

Hello,
I allways asked myself: Isn't it illegal to download an OVA even though it is not licensed in the US or Europe?
OVAs, short for Original Video Animated, are series that only are produced to be sold on VHS or DVD and do never be aired on TV, is what i think.
OVAs like Le Portrait de Petit Cosette and Interlude, where do the raws comming from?
Do they come from PayTV ?
It whould be nice to get an answer that is correct and not vaguely.
A link to a site where this case is explained with law would be helpful.

thank you in advance for your answers

bye
Plastic

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by Plastic

Hello,
I allways asked myself: Isn't it illegal to download an OVA even though it is not licensed in the US or Europe?
OVAs, short for Original Video Animated, are series that only are produced to be sold on VHS or DVD and do never be aired on TV, is what i think.
OVAs like Le Portrait de Petit Cosette and Interlude, where do the raws comming from?
Do they come from PayTV ?
It whould be nice to get an answer that is correct and not vaguely.
A link to a site where this case is explained with law would be helpful.

thank you in advance for your answers

bye
Plastic

No, they are illegal as with all fansubs.

It is fairly simple to capture from VHS or DVDs through a capture card or a DVD-to-MPEG2 ripper.

[Gold_Rogers]

Originally Posted by kj1980

No, they are illegal as with all fansubs.

It is fairly simple to capture from VHS or DVDs through a capture card or a DVD-to-MPEG2 ripper.

Hey, I was wondering how the Japanese perceive the foreign fansubbing scene, if they know it exists at all. Well I guess only the otakus would really have any chance of knowing what foreigners think of anime, since casual viewers probably wouldn't even notice that anime gets watched outside of Japan. That's just my guess, though.

[Iron Monkey]

Yup, getting licensed stuff off the TV and then distributing it is just as illegal as getting it off other mediums such as VHS/DVD and distributing it. I'm surprised there's so many people who think it's legal to get stuff off TV and freely distribute it.

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by Gold_Rogers

Hey, I was wondering how the Japanese perceive the foreign fansubbing scene, if they know it exists at all. Well I guess only the otakus would really have any chance of knowing what foreigners think of anime, since casual viewers probably wouldn't even notice that anime gets watched outside of Japan. That's just my guess, though.

Honestly speaking:

A. We know you guys get off the "raws" from our sources
B. We could care less because it doesn't affect us, but it does makes us sad to see our stuff being exploited

As for our stereotypical image of foreign anime fans:
"Anime rocks! I love Akira, Ghost In The Shell, Cowboy Bebop!"
"I love so-and-so anime!! All others sux!"

...And I still cannot grasp this "l33t" mentality.

EDIT: Judging how this thread will seemingly become another monotonous exchange of what is what, I refuse to partake in this discussion further.

[mantidor]

But is really illegal to record a show which is transmitted in a channel from public TV and then share it with someone else??? isn't this case the same as if this hypothetical channel were just getting a wider audience??? I know is illegal in paper, but do you consider it illegal??

And I always though that OVA meant Only Video Available, don't know why

kj1980: When you use "we" do you mean japanese people in general, or just you and your close friends???? I mean, do you feel that anime is expoited by fansubs groups, or is the general opinion of the people you know???

and one final question... what's l33t??? *blushes embarrased* and moe? ( i saw a post by you mentioning that) *blushes even more*

[DekaMaster]

Originally Posted by kj1980

Honestly speaking:

A. We know you guys get off the "raws" from our sources
B. We could care less because it doesn't affect us, but it does makes us sad to see our stuff being exploited

As for our stereotypical image of foreign anime fans:
"Anime rocks! I love Akira, Ghost In The Shell, Cowboy Bebop!"
"I love so-and-so anime!! All others sux!"

...And I still cannot grasp this "l33t" mentality.

Exploited? Ok HAHAAH sorry but that is just really bad. If you don't like it why do so many people In japan encode and put up?

[vio5555]

Originally Posted by kj1980

Honestly speaking:
...And I still cannot grasp this "l33t" mentality.

pwn3d

[LynnieS]

Originally Posted by mantidor

But is really illegal to record a show which is transmitted in a channel from public TV and then share it with someone else??? isn't this case the same as if this hypothetical channel were just getting a wider audience??? I know is illegal in paper, but do you consider it illegal??

I think that the public television channels are being funded by fees paid for by those of us who own televisions here. Don't know how much it costs to broadcast a commercial, but compared to the U.S.'s massive bombardment of selling everything from fast food to debt protection organizations, there aren't that many per showing.

[AG3]

Downloading broadcasted media (music, video etc) is legal in Norway, because the most recent law we have that can be applied to it is the one that makes taping radio broadcasts legal for personal use.

Distributing this media without permission is still illegal though, so I guess using BitTorrent to download anime (which means you upload it too) is illegal. But we don't really have many laws that can be applied to internet specifically, so it's a grey area.

Originally Posted by kj1980

...And I still cannot grasp this "l33t" mentality.

That makes two of us.

Originally Posted by KingRanger

Exploited? Ok HAHAAH sorry but that is just really bad. If you don't like it why do so many people In japan encode and put up?

Considering how many million people live in Japan, all the people providing raws don't even count enough people to be called a minority. It's like saying "if the majority of the people in a country don't like murders, why are there so many people commiting them? Don't presume the actions of few represents the opinions of many.

That said, I'll have to admit, in all fairness, that we only have kj1980's word for that the Japanese people think it's sad that their stuff is being exploited. But he would know better than me, and I seriously doubt he would lie about it.

[Kyuven]

l33t is l33t that's all there is to it
some people are just "unl33t" and think they're l33t
those people are not l33t event though they think they're l33t
if you are truly l33t, you don't need to tell other people

[Briareos]

l33t = useless, stupid, obfuscation. It's "trendy" and "cool" right now, but it'll fade away when it becomes uncool. It's a fad like any other "hip" shift in slang. I'm not exactly sure why I loath l33t speak so much, but I find it very annoying when I see it used. (Perhaps it's because I've seen so many morons use it, while proving that they are indeed morons.) My respect for others is lowered when I see them using it (in a non-joking manner). For me it's akin to seeing someone use horrid grammar and punctuation (although I admit that very smart people may use it).

[Izzy]

Originally Posted by kj1980

...And I still cannot grasp this "l33t" mentality.

well....If I were you...I wouldn't grasp the "l33t" mentality because is an idiotic one

[Onegai]

Originally Posted by kj1980

Honestly speaking:

A. We know you guys get off the "raws" from our sources
B. We could care less because it doesn't affect us, but it does makes us sad to see our stuff being exploited

As for our stereotypical image of foreign anime fans:
"Anime rocks! I love Akira, Ghost In The Shell, Cowboy Bebop!"
"I love so-and-so anime!! All others sux!"

...And I still cannot grasp this "l33t" mentality.

I don't disagree with your opinions, but I would think that it actually benefits the japanese that there are fansubs out there as long as its not licensed by companies from different areas of the world (ei. North America, Europe). The exposure to anime aired on japanese television and cable increase popularity of the anime series, normally generating income for those companies that produce anime and their products. This, in turn increases popularity in anime, which increases sponsorships from various corporations, generating increased income for the japanese community.


and I agree with your stereotypical image of foreign anime fans.

And I agree, what's with this "l33t" thing. Is it my opinion, or are these people just immature and grammatically incorrect individuals.

[Arwyn]

This all gets tied up in international law and copyright law.

In the US, its legal for you to make a copy of a publicly broadcasted program for personal use. So for example, if you use your VCR to record a show for later viewing, it perfectly legal. If you distribute that copy to someone else, your violating copyright, and that is illegal.

Fansubs fall into a grey area in a lot of countries because they are technically illegal, since its distribution of a copyrighted program, but because there are no copyright holders in some of the countries in question, its not technically illegal in those particular countries, since there is no "injured party" in that specific country.

Basically it means that unless there is a legal copyright holder, ie a legal "owner" of the program, its technically possible to distribute. That is why you will see funsubs listed on animesuki until they are liscensed. Once the show is liscensed however, there is a legal copyright owner that "owns" the show as far as copyright law is concerned, and distribution of that fansub then becomes copyright infringement and illegal.

In many cases there are reciprocal laws that recognize foreign copyrights by way of treaty or international law. Several countries in Europe and the US have reciprocal copyright agreements, so if a title is copyrighted in the UK, its recognized in the US as well. In the case of Japan, there isnt any reciprocal copyright recognition (and I dont know why) so all these fansubs fall into a legal grey area.

Well, I got a little long winded on the response, but I hope that helps!

[microlith]

n the case of Japan, there isnt any reciprocal copyright recognition (and I dont know why) so all these fansubs fall into a legal grey area.

No, it is reciprocal. There has never been a true grey area, the only reason it was called that is simply because it was taking place in such small numers and outside Japan. Any possible gains from pursuing fansubbers was negated by the excessive legal costs that would be incurred due to the international coordination required to pursue them.

With internet distribution and foreign licensing beginning to have that much more influence, it's quite possible that the gains of pursuing international violators could quite possibly outweigh the legal costs that may be incurred.

Read this, even though it's from 2000 it still applies today.

[Gold_Rogers]

Originally Posted by kj1980

Honestly speaking:

A. We know you guys get off the "raws" from our sources
B. We could care less because it doesn't affect us, but it does makes us sad to see our stuff being exploited

As for our stereotypical image of foreign anime fans:
"Anime rocks! I love Akira, Ghost In The Shell, Cowboy Bebop!"
"I love so-and-so anime!! All others sux!"

...And I still cannot grasp this "l33t" mentality.

Hehe... I guess a lot of anime fans in America have limited exposure, so Akira/GITS/Bebop are often talked about. I mean, count how many people watch Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon, Dragonball, and Inuyasha and those types of shows exclusively. I mean, it's hard to blame them with the stuff that gets shown on TV here.

Then again I once heard that people in Japan loved the movie Pearl Harbor, and I remember thinking to myself "Eh?" I thought the movie was pretty degrading towards Japanese people and was pretty surprised to hear it did well at the box office over there. I guess to each his/her own tastes?

As for the exploitation, a lot of the raws are gotten off of Japanese sources such as Winny, so American fansubbers are actually being aided by Japanese raw cappers (even if it may be unintentional).Of course I'm not saying that the general public is involved, but there are still people helping out who are insiders nonetheless. Then again, lots of warez groups have industry insiders who are helping to leak the software, and same goes for the movie industry insiders who leak screener DVDs to the public.

I think there's also a positive aspect to fansubbing, and that's the fact that a lot of Americans who watch fansubs think very positively about Japanese culture. I would say that in America, out of all Asian cultures the Japanese is received in the most positive light, and in general Americans are more interested in Japanese culture than many other foreign cultures. Part of it may be America's obsession with Japan that results from the victor and defeated relationship brought about by World War 2, but I also think anime has contributed a whole lot to this. Yeah, the official DVD releases should be considered first (as they are the legitimate business side), but a lot of times fansubbers will pick up shows that are distinctly Japanese and try to present them in a manner which is not Americanized, and so in effect familiarizing more Americans (and people all over the world) who watch these fansubs with the Japanese culture (well, at least they try... they might not always succeed).

I hope I didn't sound argumentative here, just making some observations.

[Arwyn]

Originally Posted by microlith

n the case of Japan, there isnt any reciprocal copyright recognition (and I dont know why) so all these fansubs fall into a legal grey area.

No, it is reciprocal. There has never been a true grey area, the only reason it was called that is simply because it was taking place in such small numers and outside Japan. Any possible gains from pursuing fansubbers was negated by the excessive legal costs that would be incurred due to the international coordination required to pursue them.

With internet distribution and foreign licensing beginning to have that much more influence, it's quite possible that the gains of pursuing international violators could quite possibly outweigh the legal costs that may be incurred.

Read this, even though it's from 2000 it still applies today.

Good link. I agree, my comment was based on current practices after I looked up the relevant sections. I get to deal with a lot of copyright issues at work, so I see this kind of question a lot. Yes, it is illegal at the bottom line. The issue with liscensing and copyright holder is still there though. Recently we are starting to see companies cross producing titles like Geneon USA has been doing recently. As far as copyright law is concerned, that means they have partial ownership. Now obviously thats hasnt been persued on several new titles, but they certainly could make the case for copyright infringement. Obviously they havent. Not yet.

The anime studios do have legal grounds, but havent persued them. That is more or less why I made the comment I did. I am curious as to why though. You see more manga fansubbs stopped due to requests by the Japanese publishers than you see anime fansubs stopped. Possibly its market penetration? Who knows.

I imagine as the market expands, there will be more of a focus on multi-language original releases. It just makes sense for the studios to persue it, just due to the size of the potential market. As anime becomes more mainstream in the US and Europe, its going to be in the best intrest of the studio to persue this up front.

Basically the fansubs are tolerated right now, but as the market expands and heats up, the studios arent going to be as tolerant. Of course in most cases, the legitimate fansubbers have gotten what they wanted anyway, which is current anime releases in their local language.

[KristopherZ]

Well, Just imagine this. If america has an animation company that is the envy of Albania (this is hypothetical) and albania would release the american animation digisubs in albanian because it will not get released for a couple of months what do you think the American Animation Company would do?

They would A) Sue the crap off the albanian digisubbers to get money off them or B) they would let them go and people of other countries which do have the said animation released in in DVD already would Download it because they don't want to pay for the DVD. I bet that there are some kids in Japan that DL fansubs because they don't want to pay for the DVD, just like I bet that there are kids in america that DL fansubs because they don't want to pay for it nor will they ever pay for it once released.

[kj1980]

( ﾟдﾟ )ﾎﾟｶｰﾝ