Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[hero147]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

:P Actually, it doesn't really. Your initial interpretation is more than likely correct: if you listen to V.V.'s words in that scene, he talks about recieving Code in future tense. This doesn't make sense from a 'he still has his memories' perspective, since V.V. had already had one for ~50 years. If he were talking about getting another one (why? how?) he'd probably say something like "I'll reclaim it".

I think it was more rather the fact that VV was recalling some memories, like how Lelouch saw his life flash before him, VV was recalling that particular incident when he was about to die. There's too many plot holes. For we know that when CC lost her code, she lost all her memories from the moment she got Geass and all the time after. Yet VV, definitely has knowledge of Geass in that scene.

[Lie]

Originally Posted by hero147

I think it was more rather the fact that VV was recalling some memories, like how Lelouch saw his life flash before him, VV was recalling that particular incident when he was about to die. There's too many plot holes. For we know that when CC lost her code, she lost all her memories from the moment she got Geass and all the time after. Yet VV, definitely has knowledge of Geass in that scene.

Lelouch saw his entire life and was coherent. V.V. was focusing on a key moment before acquiring the Geass, with C.C. losing her memories when her code was sealed at the end of the same episode. Too convenient.

[chris062689]

Something still really bothers me...
Lelouch was planning to fake his own death even in R1 (See: Episode 22)

After watching that episode again, and the dialog between Euphie and Lelouch, I am almost certain it was a staged death.

He said he wanted to make a recovery back in R1, but of course he wouldn't want to do this in R2, where everyone hated him.

There was even a few pieces of dialog in their conversation that foreshadowed his death I believe.
I think in one of the episodes he said something about.. "If people only want to believe in a miracle, even a fake miracle, that's fine with me." (or something like that).

[lovecakecookies]

We were told to watch the first episode of R1 by the writer/director before the last episode, if anything, the first episode and the things he says foreshadows his death as well.

[killbethy]

Originally Posted by lovecakecookies

We were told to watch the first episode of R1 by the writer/director before the last episode, if anything, the first episode and the things he says foreshadows his death as well.

We were told to watch the first episode to see and recall the journey that Lelouch has taken and how much Geass has changed him.... not for foreshadowing of his death.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by chris062689

Something still really bothers me...
Lelouch was planning to fake his own death even in R1 (See: Episode 22)

After watching that episode again, and the dialog between Euphie and Lelouch, I am almost certain it was a staged death.

He said he wanted to make a recovery back in R1, but of course he wouldn't want to do this in R2, where everyone hated him.

There was even a few pieces of dialog in their conversation that foreshadowed his death I believe.
I think in one of the episodes he said something about.. "If people only want to believe in a miracle, even a fake miracle, that's fine with me." (or something like that).

Did you notice what happened after Euphie and Lelouch's dialogue? "Zero...our Japan's savior..." "Stop it...I'm neither a savior nor a messiah." After that event knocked all the arrogance and deception right out of him, do you really think he could pull a stunt with the same shit insincerity again? Lelouch wasn't pretending to be the world's greatest jackass in the end, he was it. And that is why he was willing to accept his death.

[lovecakecookies]

Originally Posted by killbethy

We were told to watch the first episode to see and recall the journey that Lelouch has taken and how much Geass has changed him.... not for foreshadowing of his death.

I know that... where did I say that wasn't the case..

However, The first episode IMO foreshadows his death..

[chris062689]

How exactly does it foreshadow his death?
Aside from getting Geass

[chris062689]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Did you notice what happened after Euphie and Lelouch's dialogue? "Zero...our Japan's savior..." "Stop it...I'm neither a savior nor a messiah." After that event knocked all the arrogance and deception right out of him, do you really think he could pull a stunt with the same shit insincerity again? Lelouch wasn't pretending to be the world's greatest jackass in the end, he was it. And that is why he was willing to accept his death.

That can be taken both ways.
Why would he attempt to be the Messiah and die like that, then?

[Sol Falling]

:P Lelouch didn't attempt to be the Messiah. Were you even paying attention? Lelouch became the World's Greatest Jackass, genuinely, to the extent that he'd Geass Nunally and make her fall down a flight of stairs trying to chase him. And feel no remorse at all. That part was hilarious.

[Momosan]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

:P Lelouch didn't attempt to be the Messiah. Were you even paying attention? Lelouch became the World's Greatest Jackass, genuinely, to the extent that he'd Geass Nunally and make her fall down a flight of stairs trying to chase him. And feel no remorse at all. That part was hilarious.

Since when was Lelouch ever being an ass to the world? Throughout the entirety of the show Lelouch constantly tried to minimize casualties, but not at the expense of results. There are far too many examples that would take up too much time explaining, but some examples are; Euphy, Suzaku, Shirley, and Rolo. Every single one of these characters inhibits Lelouch's plans at some point in the series yet Lelouch never sacrificed a single one of them. Lelouch constantly discusses how he's tired of losing things that are dear to him and never once sacrificed any of them.

Also, how could anyone interpret Lelouch as being an Asshole to Nunnally? At the end Lelouch used the Geass to prevent Nunnally from feeling as if she betrayed the world. He understood Nunnally was too firmly rooted in her convictions to allow Lelouch to continue his plans (plans that would bring peace to the world) so instead of trying to convince her to join him, the evil side, he used his Geass as a means to make her feel betrayed. In this respect Lelouch preserves Nunnally's desire to save the world, even if it means he'll have to betray the one thing he longs for most: his sister's love.

As for Kallen, I didn't really have a problem with how the series handled her. It was made apparent Lelouch had conflicting desires about the multitude of female characters surrounding him.

Shirley's Romance:

Spoiler:

Shirley identified most with Lelouch, and therefore it was undeniable that she had to die. Lelouch understood that he would end up having to sacrifice "Lelouch" of the Ashford Academy to realize the fruition of his plans. He didn't have the power to attend to someone as gentle and indecisive as Shirley. I felt as if her death heralded the death of the Lelouch we were introduced to back in R1. After Shirley's death you see Lelouch slip further and further from his characteristics from the Ashford Academy.

Kallen's Romance

Spoiler:

Kallen identified most with Zero, and therefore it was undeniable that she had to live. Kallen was probably the most changed/developed female romance throughout the saga which harmonizes with the personification that is Zero. Acting as antithesis to Shirley, Kallen is able to act decisively and therefore becomes Zero's most powerful asset. If Lelouch had an alternative route which allowed for the unification of the world as Zero, then it is almost irrefutable that Kallen would've fallen in love with him. Unfortunately, Lelouch needed Kallen's strong convictions to reinforce the facade that he was working against his former allies. As with many other characters, Lelouch did everything within his power to save Kallen both in China and at Tokyo Settlement. Lelouch even went so far as to indirectly acknowledge "favoritism", I.E. his love for Kallen, during her capture. Throughout all transgressions Kallen constantly questions the "Betrayal" by Zero which is why Lelouch told her that she must live on. Throughout the entirety of the series Kallen was the only one who didn't lie to, nor was lied to by, Lelouch.

C.C.'s Romance

Spoiler:

C.C. was the only character who could Identify with Lelouch and his alternate incarnation of Zero, and therefore it was undeniable that she would be the one Lelouch would fall in love with. Out of all characters, no one understood Lelouch's motives better than C.C., not even Lelouch himself. Everytime Lelouch was faced with internal struggle, the only remaining constant to reinforce his motives was C.C. While Lelouch had to at times remain objective, and therefore had to objectify those around him, Lelouch could never reduce C.C. down to being a tool or an asset. C.C. was an indeterminate factor which Lelouch could not control nor predict and therefore was an object of his fascination. This can be seen as he commonly refers to her as witch in a connotatively playful form. This inability to control C.C. resulted in C.C.'s motives being determined of her own accord. Lelouch constantly found himself time and time again saved or confounded by her. His love for C.C. is evident when Charles is about to take her code and he intervenes. Lelouch discovers that her Geass power was to make anyone fall in love with her, but as her power grew out of control she lost all sense of love. Lelouch says "I know it C.C.! Your geass, your true wish!" Lelouch understood that C.C. wanted to be loved, not to die. C.C. had desperately searched for a reason to live but to no avail. Motivation turned to despair and instead she resigned to find a Geass user to push her code onto. Lelouch was the first one who reached a stage capable of accepting the geass yet she didn't push her curse onto him. The only explanation is that she fell in love with him. Lelouch reciprocates those emotions at the moment she is about to lose her code which makes her realize death is not the only solution and therefore stop Charles.

Geass Code and C.C.'s memories

Spoiler:

Now why did C.C. lose her memories after this scene? I don't believe it was because she "lost her code" because she didn't. C.C. sealed her memories inside her own subconscious in an attempt at love with Lelouch. I assume C.C. felt as if her code and the ability to dispense Geass would inhibit her relationship with Lelouch and therefore secludes her memory of all things Geass. While this is mere conjecture, I ascertained these conclusions in episode 20 in the discussion between Marianne and C.C. where C.C. admits to not understanding why she would do such a thing. The only conclusion that makes sense personally is the one stated above. I believe C.C. returns her memories in an attempt to reevaluate her relationship with Lelouch. Lelouch's feelings for C.C. can be easily discerned during her memory lapse while C.C.'s is evident after her memories return.

Why I knew Lelouch lived

Spoiler:

I'll admit, I did a little research about whether Lulu lived or died at the end. Personally I felt he lived because had C.C. lost Lelouch, then she'd have relapsed into a suicidal state and have begun reinstating the powers of the Geass. Instead we see a very different C.C. than the one we've experienced throughout the series. C.C. was always stoic and dressed in a simple white costume. Her movements and statements were direct and impassive. At the end we see C.C. in a country dress laying in a pile of hay staring at the sun with a smile on her face for the first time in the series.

Who said that they would make C.C. smile? Again go watch episode 16 I believe. Lelouch says he'd make her smile. Therefore I ascertained that Lulu must be alive but I didn't know how. A little research explained how V.V.'s code was passed to Lelouch and this is why C.C. smiles. She's with Lulu at the end ^_^.

Due to the length of my post, I decided to hide the majority of them in spoilers to avoid the "Wall of text" that most people avert. Feel free the reveal any of the topics I adressed for further discussion. This is my first contributing post to Animesuki, hopefully my posts will be pleasing.

[kazuki_yuki92]

C.C doesn't lost her code....in episode 20...

C.C forehead be code symbol...

[Droplet]

Dealing with Subjective Arguments. A Beginner's Guide:

1. Facts are things everyone can agree with.
2. INTERPRETATIONS of facts are not things everyone can agree with.
3. Never mud-wrestle with a pig. You'll get dirty and the pig will just enjoy it. This doesn't have anything to do with the topic. Just practical advice.
   

[D-KLAC]

OMFG 211+ pages & still wonder lelouch is alive or "whacked" alright GORO & sunrise where are ya tell the real mf'n TRUTH or else i'm going ENTER KLAC-MAN to get that answer out of ya!!!

& find my theroies that lelouch is alive

[Revolutionist]

Lelouch lives.
/thread.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Momosan

Since when was Lelouch ever being an ass to the world? Throughout the entirety of the show Lelouch constantly tried to minimize casualties, but not at the expense of results. There are far too many examples that would take up too much time explaining, but some examples are; Euphy, Suzaku, Shirley, and Rolo. Every single one of these characters inhibits Lelouch's plans at some point in the series yet Lelouch never sacrificed a single one of them. Lelouch constantly discusses how he's tired of losing things that are dear to him and never once sacrificed any of them.

Also, how could anyone interpret Lelouch as being an Asshole to Nunnally? At the end Lelouch used the Geass to prevent Nunnally from feeling as if she betrayed the world. He understood Nunnally was too firmly rooted in her convictions to allow Lelouch to continue his plans (plans that would bring peace to the world) so instead of trying to convince her to join him, the evil side, he used his Geass as a means to make her feel betrayed. In this respect Lelouch preserves Nunnally's desire to save the world, even if it means he'll have to betray the one thing he longs for most: his sister's love.

As for Kallen, I didn't really have a problem with how the series handled her. It was made apparent Lelouch had conflicting desires about the multitude of female characters surrounding him.

Shirley's Romance:

Spoiler:

Shirley identified most with Lelouch, and therefore it was undeniable that she had to die. Lelouch understood that he would end up having to sacrifice "Lelouch" of the Ashford Academy to realize the fruition of his plans. He didn't have the power to attend to someone as gentle and indecisive as Shirley. I felt as if her death heralded the death of the Lelouch we were introduced to back in R1. After Shirley's death you see Lelouch slip further and further from his characteristics from the Ashford Academy.

Kallen's Romance

Spoiler:

Kallen identified most with Zero, and therefore it was undeniable that she had to live. Kallen was probably the most changed/developed female romance throughout the saga which harmonizes with the personification that is Zero. Acting as antithesis to Shirley, Kallen is able to act decisively and therefore becomes Zero's most powerful asset. If Lelouch had an alternative route which allowed for the unification of the world as Zero, then it is almost irrefutable that Kallen would've fallen in love with him. Unfortunately, Lelouch needed Kallen's strong convictions to reinforce the facade that he was working against his former allies. As with many other characters, Lelouch did everything within his power to save Kallen both in China and at Tokyo Settlement. Lelouch even went so far as to indirectly acknowledge "favoritism", I.E. his love for Kallen, during her capture. Throughout all transgressions Kallen constantly questions the "Betrayal" by Zero which is why Lelouch told her that she must live on. Throughout the entirety of the series Kallen was the only one who didn't lie to, nor was lied to by, Lelouch.

C.C.'s Romance

Spoiler:

C.C. was the only character who could Identify with Lelouch and his alternate incarnation of Zero, and therefore it was undeniable that she would be the one Lelouch would fall in love with. Out of all characters, no one understood Lelouch's motives better than C.C., not even Lelouch himself. Everytime Lelouch was faced with internal struggle, the only remaining constant to reinforce his motives was C.C. While Lelouch had to at times remain objective, and therefore had to objectify those around him, Lelouch could never reduce C.C. down to being a tool or an asset. C.C. was an indeterminate factor which Lelouch could not control nor predict and therefore was an object of his fascination. This can be seen as he commonly refers to her as witch in a connotatively playful form. This inability to control C.C. resulted in C.C.'s motives being determined of her own accord. Lelouch constantly found himself time and time again saved or confounded by her. His love for C.C. is evident when Charles is about to take her code and he intervenes. Lelouch discovers that her Geass power was to make anyone fall in love with her, but as her power grew out of control she lost all sense of love. Lelouch says "I know it C.C.! Your geass, your true wish!" Lelouch understood that C.C. wanted to be loved, not to die. C.C. had desperately searched for a reason to live but to no avail. Motivation turned to despair and instead she resigned to find a Geass user to push her code onto. Lelouch was the first one who reached a stage capable of accepting the geass yet she didn't push her curse onto him. The only explanation is that she fell in love with him. Lelouch reciprocates those emotions at the moment she is about to lose her code which makes her realize death is not the only solution and therefore stop Charles.

Geass Code and C.C.'s memories

Spoiler:

Now why did C.C. lose her memories after this scene? I don't believe it was because she "lost her code" because she didn't. C.C. sealed her memories inside her own subconscious in an attempt at love with Lelouch. I assume C.C. felt as if her code and the ability to dispense Geass would inhibit her relationship with Lelouch and therefore secludes her memory of all things Geass. While this is mere conjecture, I ascertained these conclusions in episode 20 in the discussion between Marianne and C.C. where C.C. admits to not understanding why she would do such a thing. The only conclusion that makes sense personally is the one stated above. I believe C.C. returns her memories in an attempt to reevaluate her relationship with Lelouch. Lelouch's feelings for C.C. can be easily discerned during her memory lapse while C.C.'s is evident after her memories return.

Why I knew Lelouch lived

Spoiler:

I'll admit, I did a little research about whether Lulu lived or died at the end. Personally I felt he lived because had C.C. lost Lelouch, then she'd have relapsed into a suicidal state and have begun reinstating the powers of the Geass. Instead we see a very different C.C. than the one we've experienced throughout the series. C.C. was always stoic and dressed in a simple white costume. Her movements and statements were direct and impassive. At the end we see C.C. in a country dress laying in a pile of hay staring at the sun with a smile on her face for the first time in the series.

Who said that they would make C.C. smile? Again go watch episode 16 I believe. Lelouch says he'd make her smile. Therefore I ascertained that Lulu must be alive but I didn't know how. A little research explained how V.V.'s code was passed to Lelouch and this is why C.C. smiles. She's with Lulu at the end ^_^.

Due to the length of my post, I decided to hide the majority of them in spoilers to avoid the "Wall of text" that most people avert. Feel free the reveal any of the topics I adressed for further discussion. This is my first contributing post to Animesuki, hopefully my posts will be pleasing.

Yes, because clearly C.C can only be happy because she get's sex. It couldn't be because Lelouch caused her to regain her humanity.

No it can't be character development

[Lord Ryo]

Originally Posted by kazuki_yuki92

anyway.. will R3 coming soon?

or just ova or movie?

R3?! Who dares to start another rebellion after Lelouch went through everything to bring the world peace?! Boy if I find out that happens I'll have to transform myself into a weird anime form, jump through my computer screen and enter the world that is Code Geass, have wild sex with C.C. and then go kill that person!

Another season or OVA is fine, just don't let it involve war, not after what already happened.

[Discerptor]

Lelouch's peace is a farce that won't last longer than a few months. His big idea was that creating a power vacuum will make everyone unite instead of fight over who gets what? Bitch please. Politics don't work that way. There WILL be more war, and in the end Lelouch caused a huge ruckus and threw the world into turmoil for the better part of two years just so it could get a fragile peace that'll go away in a matter of months. The only reason there won't be an R3 is that Taniguchi doesn't want to have to BS politics even more than he already had to in R2 to make his poorly thought-out story work.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

Lelouch's peace is a farce that won't last longer than a few months. His big idea was that creating a power vacuum will make everyone unite instead of fight over who gets what? Bitch please. Politics don't work that way. There WILL be more war, and in the end Lelouch caused a huge ruckus and threw the world into turmoil for the better part of two years just so it could get a fragile peace that'll go away in a matter of months. The only reason there won't be an R3 is that Taniguchi doesn't want to have to BS politics even more than he already had to in R2 to make his poorly thought-out story work.

I imagine that, between the UN and Nunnally, the peace will last a lot longer than a few months. And Lelouch was quite aware that it might not last; he knew and acknowledged the fact that that the future is uncertain. However, what he did do has an extremely good chance at lasting, because of the institutions he set up, and because his sister would become the next Empress of Britannia, who we know is an advocate of peace.

[Discerptor]

You mean the same UN that was SO effective that all it took was one man to completely troll them and take their leaders hostage? Oh, and let's not forget the amazing political insight of the crippled child as well as institutions that would likely be destroyed immediately for being associated with the "demon Lelouch." We got a fantastical sugar-coated cherry blossoms resolution for the world that has no artistic or realistic merits. To even pretend the peace has a chance of lasting is laughable.