Mobile Suit Gundam AGE - Episode 10 Discussion

[Realist_Classic]

Originally Posted by felix

Have other gundam shows had this very advanced technology known as maps? (and I mean real ones, not just unreadable ones) I would think it would make it really hard on the plot writers if the system and locations were set in stone.

Hmmm, unless the maps or diagrams from old UC series were done after the series were over...

With AGE, I'm feeling somewhat lost in terms of orientation. They have all of these tactical displays and computer-generated diagrams in the show...they could at least generate a map of sorts. A small, but nice touch. Unless we're supposed to get some kind of SURPRISE unveil of where everything is really happening.

[felix]

We might get one or some clearer hints when the politics get fleshed out, probably somewhere in the 2nd and 3rd generation.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Technically, Gundam 00 did show us the worlds map, right? Aside from that, I don't remember seeing any one else.

I don't remember 00 going on anywhere but Earth? And well we don't really need a map of Earth. Unless you were referring to something else?

[kakakka]

I think he/she was referring to the borders of the three blocs presented in the story.

[RES-01 Perses Gundam]

Yeah, I somehow agree with the critics. As much as they were non-existent in the plot, or non-essential, there're ways, subtle ones, to project their presence somehow.

Whatever, I don't think we should kick up a big fuss over this plot detail. It's not like politics is an integral part of this series.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam

Yeah, I somehow agree with the critics. As much as they were non-existent in the plot, or non-essential, there're ways, subtle ones, to project their presence somehow.

Whatever, I don't think we should kick up a big fuss over this plot detail. It's not like politics is an integral part of this series.

Except that the current politics within the federation has them pretty much ignoring the UE.

And not to point it out again, but everything the Diva's crew are doing sofar is because the Federation's current politics. So i have to disagree, this show is very much about the politics of the federation.

It also feels like a bad excuse to motivate the Diva's crew to do what they are doing right now, by blaming it on the federation that's never seen.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Welp this thread got dumb and angry since yesterday.

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

It also feels like a bad excuse to motivate the Diva's crew to do what they are doing right now, by blaming it on the federation that's never seen.

I don't know how it's a bad excuse. The EFF has been pretty much dragging this conflict way too long, and it's underlings aren't motivated to protect the people it's supposed to protect.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by kakakka

I don't know how it's a bad excuse. The EFF has been pretty much dragging this conflict way too long, and it's underlings aren't motivated to protect the people it's supposed to protect.

All we've seen from the federation sofar is the original captain of the Diva, the guy that Grodek blackmailed and the Diva's crew, other than that we've only heard that the federation is corrupt and bad.

We've seen nothing of the actual federation's structure, sofar they seem like a easy scapegoat, set x scenario for the plot and then blame it on the " evil " federation.
The federation has no face sofar, they have nothing at all, no figurehead, nothing except being " bad and corrupt "

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

All we've seen from the federation sofar is the original captain of the Diva, the guy that Grodek blackmailed and the Diva's crew, other than that we've only heard that the federation is corrupt and bad.

We've seen nothing of the actual federation's structure, sofar they seem like a easy scapegoat, set x scenario for the plot and then blame it on the " evil " federation.
The federation has no face sofar, they have nothing at all, no figurehead, nothing except being " bad and corrupt "

And how does that even goes as bad excuse to these characters? Is EFF proper political structure needed to drive what these character feel about the current situation?

Almost 10 years since UE have attacked Flit's home colony, and other people in the story do not even know the dangers this impose to other colonies. EFF's apparent apathy(?) all these years does not even need explaining of its structure to tell how bad they are; on how fed up these characters are on EFF's "action" against this conflict.

[Znozzy]

The UE are terrorists, they've attacked two-three? colonies by now, out of a unknown number, from a realistic point of view, it'd be nothing but random acts of terror, not something worth a full mobilization of the federation's fleet.

No, but sofar - we've seen nothing of the federation, take, Logos from destiny as a example, it was badmouthed by Durandal and we actually see faces to give us the impression of it being a big and bad organization, now we have the federation, with no faces at all, nothing at all, they are just " there " we dont know their size, if they have a fleet, we know nothing about them except that they are lazy, bad, corrupt and don't want to help the maincast and not to mention they get blamed for random things.

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

The UE are terrorists, they've attacked two-three? colonies by now, out of a unknown number, from a realistic point of view, it'd be nothing but random acts of terror, not something worth a full mobilization of the federation's fleet.

Oh yeah, seeing as how colonies can just be blown up from the outside. Or maybe not that, because they also burned parts of the colony to the grounds first, killing inhabitants first using their toys. Or, its just random, what's the chance it'll hit one important colony. Oh yeah... sure it's only chances, it's just bad luck those colonies got destroyed. It's totally worth not taking notice, surviving people could just float by themselves in space when their colonies were destroyed... etc.

No, but sofar - we've seen nothing of the federation, take, Logos from destiny as a example, it was badmouthed by Durandal and we actually see faces to give us the impression of it being a big and bad organization, now we have the federation, with no faces at all, nothing at all, they are just " there " we dont know their size, if they have a fleet, we know nothing about them except that they are lazy, bad, corrupt and don't want to help the maincast and not to mention they get blamed for random things.

As I said, is EFF structure actually needed for the characters to feel the way they feel? For me, it does not matter if EFF is big or small; if it's spread too thin, or just gathering into specific sectors in space. The characters act because they felt EFF is incompetent, and there was no evidence to think otherwise. Again, is this a bad excuse?

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by kakakka

As I said, is EFF structure actually needed for the characters to feel the way they feel? For me, it does not matter if EFF is big or small; if it's spread too thin, or just gathering into specific sectors in space. The characters act because they felt EFF is incompetent, and there was no evidence to think otherwise. Again, is this a bad excuse?

But we've been given no indication of what the federation actually is in AGE, except them being " bad and corrupt "

i'm not talking about the characters, i'm talking about how the viewers see the federation, sofar, we havnt seen or heard anything except what the characters see or say, and the federation is hollow and close to nonexistant in the actual show for the viewers.

They are just " there " as i mentioned in my previous post, of course the characters have motives, they live inside the actual show. The viewers, do not know who the federation are, and we've been shown nothing when it comes to the federation, something that is supposed to play such a big role in motivating the characters atleast needs to be shown, so we can form our own opinions.

Take UC as a example - we're shown the corrupt leaders of both Zeon and the Federation.
But at the same time we're shown the good characters both in the Federation and in Zeon, We're given a bigger picture of the events, why characters act the way they do, and so on

in AGE we're told that they are bad, and that's just the way it is, we're not shown anything, we're just told "that's the way it is" without any further thought

Maybe the writers thought it would be a good idea to keep the Federation a mystery and somehow reveal it as a big plot twist, if they don't, then sofar it's just bad writing.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by SLick_Rick

I thinking you might be missing the point. Perhaps the relative lack of a portrayal/presence is, in fact, a plot point.

Hmm, leave it to Slick Rick to challenge me on the The Art of Storytelling^^...

No, I don't think I'm missing anything...Gundam Age is a breath-strip thin show in-terms of plotting, exposition and overall thematic functionality...If the show were strong in any one area I might be willing to accept that maybe, just maybe I'm missing out on these awesome storytelling points that are being secretly woven in the background...

-Dudes Grodek overheard

-Dude Grodek blackmailed

-Throwaway lines about them not sending reinforcements

That's your awesomely woven plot on the Federation...wingdarkness can't see it...

The Federation is not in this show, but when they do become part of this show, it won't be some culmination based on subtle plotting...It'll be what most of AGE has been: Rushed, hurried, take it or leave it (like this out-of-nowhere "epic" battle was, like the illegal MS shop owner giving a zoo exhibit to kids he just met on the enemy suit last episode)...They simply don't care...

IMO, as I have watched this show, I see so many lazy writing points (Most likely because it's trying to cater to the lowest common denominator of kid viewers) it's not even funny...So it's hard for me to listen to these glass half full accounts when I don't even see milk in the glass...

I think you at need to acknowledge the possibility that might not some conspiracy or failure due to lazy or bad writing but actually by a thought out design. Whether you like that design or not. I'm not going to argue opinions but I do see a bit of a tunnel vision on your criticism here.

Oh I'll acknowledge the possibility...What I won't acknowledge is that there is an above-average level of competency when it comes to manifesting these ideas...I know good $hit when I see it man...If you honestly in your heart think the Age staff is handling the Federation portion of the plot in something resembling a high level, I await eagerly to getting pwned by that revelation...

Originally Posted by Znozzy

No, but sofar - we've seen nothing of the federation, take, Logos from destiny as a example, it was badmouthed by Durandal and we actually see faces to give us the impression of it being a big and bad organization, now we have the federation, with no faces at all, nothing at all, they are just " there " we dont know their size, if they have a fleet, we know nothing about them except that they are lazy, bad, corrupt and don't want to help the maincast and not to mention they get blamed for random things.

Because they don't care...the show doesn't care...They can't be bothered to care because the people writing the show haven't been put to task on this...

I'll accept a show that's true to itself, no matter how low of quality I might personally think it's operating on...But I think AGE is cheating it's viewers because it's playing everything right down the middle, refusing to add depth in any area (whether it be just the battles, or just the story, or just the characterizations)...

If i didn't have a Gundam in it, it would be a really bad show, but because it does have a Gundam in it, I will watch and will hope for the time where it becomes more than good enuff to watch...If there are 2 more arcs, it certainley has a chance to improve, but as the foundation of the series I'd have to give this first arc a clear failing grade overall, even for a kids' show (Which I guess is somehow still up for debate)...

[felix]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

If i didn't have a Gundam in it, it would be a really bad show, but because it does have a Gundam in it, I will watch and will hope for the time where it becomes more than good enuff to watch...If there are 2 more arcs, it certainley has a chance to improve, but as the foundation of the series I'd have to give this first arc a clear failing grade overall, even for a kids' show (Which I guess is somehow still up for debate)...

Wait... you're not hating on the 2nd and 3rd generation yet? Wouldn't it be strange to like the 2nd generation when you don't like the first, given how each generation is built on the foundation of the last. Personally I used to think you could like just half a series but recently I've started to think that it's probably impossible to like the half that comes after the half you hated unless you have a complete change of heart by the time it kicks in, ie. you didn't like the pieces but you like it as a whole. TTGL is a good example the pre-Kamina half is kind of meh the first time you watch it but afterwards or if you watch it again you get a real sense of appretiation for what they did when you understand what they build up to.

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

But we've been given no indication of what the federation actually is in AGE, except them being " bad and corrupt "

i'm not talking about the characters, i'm talking about how the viewers see the federation, sofar, we havnt seen or heard anything except what the characters see or say, and the federation is hollow and close to nonexistant in the actual show for the viewers.

Then you're not actually answering my question. How is it a bad excuse to Diva crew. Because you felt uneasy about Diva's motivation? That they are taking this onto their own hands?

In the recent episodes, who cares about EFF, why do we need to know more at this stage of the story? No one in the known characters work directly to EFF. How do EFF's actual structure motivate these character's further at this early stage? Their experience should be enough for now to understand.

Characters that felt powerless against the external forces that they do not fully understand, but choosing to fight anyways to protect those people that can be saved. Why do we need the external touch to form opinion of what they feel. UC don't detract from that too. (Only they try to cram too much, make laid back episodic stories then go back to things that matter, but I guess that's just me).

[wingdarkness]

@ felix - That's usually true, but this is a new experience for Gundam (Like the two 25-arc seasons in OO)...Given the scope of how they are trying to do the show, it's possible they can learn from the mistakes of this first arc...Bandai has a loooooooooooooooooooooong history of changing, augmenting production in-series based on outside factors...If the rating numbers I've read are true, they're probably changing things as we speak...

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Hmm, leave it to Slick Rick to challenge me on the The Art of Storytelling^^...

No, I don't think I'm missing anything...Gundam Age is a breath-strip thin show in-terms of plotting, exposition and overall thematic functionality...

Really broad claims without much supporting information here. I don't find this show profound but I think they have a formed a picture of certain character motivations and their enemies violence and overwhelming power compared to most of the current forces.

If the show were strong in any one area I might be willing to accept that maybe, just maybe I'm missing out on these awesome storytelling points that are being secretly woven in the background...

-Dudes Grodek overheard

-Dude Grodek blackmailed

-Throwaway lines about them not sending reinforcements

That's your awesomely woven plot on the Federation...wingdarkness can't see it...

What is awesome or isn't is an opinion. I'm saying that this is currently the role of the Federation. Whether you find it awesome or not, the lack of action, the lack of competence, and the lack of presence in this conflict is a part of their characterization.

The Federation is not in this show, but when they do become part of this show, it won't be some culmination based on subtle plotting...It'll be what most of AGE has been: Rushed, hurried, take it or leave it (like this out-of-nowhere "epic" battle was, like the illegal MS shop owner giving a zoo exhibit to kids he just met on the enemy suit last episode)...They simply don't care...

IMO, as I have watched this show, I see so many lazy writing points (Most likely because it's trying to cater to the lowest common denominator of kid viewers) it's not even funny...So it's hard for me to listen to these glass half full accounts when I don't even see milk in the glass...

What if they never become part of the show or in any major way? Why does it matter? This story isn't about them is it? It has centered around them and I think that all by design. I think you claim its bad story writing because your story or the story you'd like would include a bigger role for them. That different than the story the writers are telling now though.

Oh I'll acknowledge the possibility...What I won't acknowledge is that there is an above-average level of competency when it comes to manifesting these ideas...I know good $hit when I see it man...If you honestly in your heart think the Age staff is handling the Federation portion of the plot in something resembling a high level, I await eagerly to getting pwned by that revelation...

I don't think the Federation is that important nor needs to be in order to push the current plot forward. They are a tertiary character, which some just because of the name, wish were more important. I don't think the show needs to make them more important to satisfy these people.

I think the show is handling the important parts well so far which is the crew of the Diva, Flit gaining allies, and the fights with the U.E

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Slick_Rick

What if they never become part of the show or in any major way? Why does it matter? This story isn't about them is it? It has centered around them and I think that all by design. I think you claim its bad story writing because your story or the story you'd like would include a bigger role for them. That different than the story the writers are telling now though.

Since you told me I missed the point, let me turn it back on you...The point stemmed from Nosferatu inquiring about how I thought the Federation aspect of the plot has been handled...Up to and including the conversation with you we have yet to shift from that conversational thread...So it's not about me overtly caring that the Federation portion of the plot is a joke at best which I do believe with no pause, it's just that that's what we're talking about...

While this is a big point of disappointment for me personally, it is no way close to the only problem I have with Gundam AGE...So that's more or less you keeping up with that...

What is awesome or isn't is an opinion. I'm saying that this is currently the role of the Federation. Whether you find it awesome or not, the lack of action, the lack of competence, and the lack of presence in this conflict is a part of their characterization.

And I'm telling you currently that the way the writers have chosen to implement their strategy in-terms of The Federation has been cheap if not non existent...And if you think that (lack of) characterization is a good point, a competent point, then more love to you...

But since I have argued that AGE seems to have poor writing in many areas, it stands to suggest that my issues with the Federation aspect is just more of the same...

Where you see purposeful, clear merit in scripting for this issue, i see laziness and lack of caring because of what the writers view the quality of the show should be (Or who it's targeted to accept this level of writing)...I don't think there's anyway getting around that...

If you're gonna be weak in story, give me great epic battles, if you're gonna be terrible in fight-choreography, give me great characterization, if you're gonna be blahzay in character depth, give me some type of artistic slant (Or great animation atleast), but if you're meh in all areas, that tuff for me...

Even the main point of the show where Gundam Age is suppose to be learning and acquiring information each battle to improve itself, where the hell has that been? Where are the intrinsic in-battle learning scenes that should be developing Flit's piloting ability...Oh the AGE-Builder saw that AGE is slow, so let's give it something that makes it fast? That's the stuff people want to me to sop up with mama's biscuits?

I don't think the Federation is that important nor needs to be in order to push the current plot forward. They are a tertiary character, which some just because of the name, wish were more important. I don't think the show needs to make them more important to satisfy these people.

I think the show is handling the important parts well so far which is the crew of the Diva, Flit gaining allies, and the fights with the U.E

I think it is...I think it's dumb that you have a full scale battle in space with the Federations' main enemy and a federation ship, and someone asks why aren't the Federation sending support and the answer to that question is that they're doing something else, when there has been zero world-shaping in this show on what they could possibly be doing that's more important than killing the mofos that are indiscriminately destroying space-colonies...If that's an important part that's being handled well, that's a wishing-well...

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by kakakka

Then you're not actually answering my question. How is it a bad excuse to Diva crew. Because you felt uneasy about Diva's motivation? That they are taking this onto their own hands?

Oh no, i don't doubt the Diva's motivation or their current objective, nor do i dislike it in any major way either.

What i am disliking is how the show is currently treating the federation, it's the way it's being handled in the actual show, why do they bother bringing it up if it's just a hollow name? hell, if they just gave us some more information about the actual federation other than " it's corrupt, it's bad " then i'd be satisfied.

In the recent episodes, who cares about EFF, why do we need to know more at this stage of the story? No one in the known characters work directly to EFF. How do EFF's actual structure motivate these character's further at this early stage? Their experience should be enough for now to understand.

Characters that felt powerless against the external forces that they do not fully understand, but choosing to fight anyways to protect those people that can be saved. Why do we need the external touch to form opinion of what they feel. UC don't detract from that too. (Only they try to cram too much, make laid back episodic stories then go back to things that matter, but I guess that's just me).

The only character's who have the experience you mention is Grodek and Frit

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I think it is...I think it's dumb that you have a full scale battle in space with the Federations' main enemy and a federation ship,
and someone asks why aren't the Federation sending support and the answer to that question is that they're doing something else, when there has been zero world-shaping in this show on what they could possibly be doing that's more important than killing the mofos that are indiscriminately destroying space-colonies
...If that's an important part that's being handled well, that's a wishing-well...

This is what i'm also wondering, i hope it gets revealed in the next episode or so.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Since you told me I missed the point, let me turn it back on you...The point stemmed from Nosferatu inquiring about how I thought the Federation aspect of the plot has been handled...Up to and including the conversation with you we have yet to shift from that conversational thread...So it's not about me overtly caring that the Federation portion of the plot is a joke at best which I do believe with no pause, it's just that that's what we're talking about...

While this is a big point of disappointment for me personally, it is no way close to the only problem I have with Gundam AGE...So that's more or less you keeping up with that...

Well I think the fact they are a joke validates the Diva doing this by themselves and gaining the allies they do. In that way it gives legitimacy to their mission and is necessary for the plot.

I don't feel the Federation needs a big role in order for the show to entertain or advance its plot.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree, cause I don't see it as laziness and lack of caring to characterize the Federation in a basically side character way to contrast them to the Diva. Which I think is ultimately the true purpose of the Federation. These little side comments do lead to a larger narrative of the Diva being active towards defending the colonies against the U.E when the Federation is not.

Even the main point of the show where Gundam Age is suppose to be learning and acquiring information each battle to improve itself, where the hell has that been? Where are the intrinsic in-battle learning scenes that should be developing Flit's piloting ability...Oh the AGE-Builder saw that AGE is slow, so let's give it something that makes it fast? That's the stuff people want to me to sop up with mama's biscuits?

I think the main point of the story is about war and the civilians caught between it. We see that when the colony is attacked and later how in-fighting between the Zalam and Euba affected the civilians. Later these two forces join together to repel a greater threat. We have the motivations of the crew and about Gordek and Flit's hatred of the U.E and I expect to know about how far Gordek and Flit will go to get vengeance.

I think we have a lot of interesting plot lines to be revealed more later on. Even the romance I wonder how that will play out and how it will affect Flit. We also have to learn more about Decil and his motivations to fight.

I think it is...I think it's dumb that you have a full scale battle in space with the Federations' main enemy and a federation ship, and someone asks why aren't the Federation sending support and the answer to that question is that they're doing something else, when there has been zero world-shaping in this show on what they could possibly be doing that's more important than killing the mofos that are indiscriminately destroying space-colonies...If that's an important part that's being handled well, that's a wishing-well...

I think that's an important question but I think it's a question that we might be able to answer with what we currently know about the Federation.

I think the enemy of the U.E is not the Federation but humankind and the Federation is inept/unwilling to combat it. Therein lies the reason for the Gordek and the Diva actions in the few past episodes.

I don't think they need to spell it out explicitly, so we don't have to employ that silly thing called thinking to figure out, but I think it fairly strongly implied either way.