Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by Icarus

You also forget that Teana was in no position to listen to Nanoha before the first shot. Nanoha waited to see the situation pan out, then decided to attack. Nanoha's binding of Subaru has many messages, and we could speculate back and forth what that message is (you put down some good arguments in your post here) but whatever it was, the intent to show both Subaru and Teana what the consequences of irrational behaviour in a possible real-world situation is there.

Gah. I really need to work on being clear in my posts.

I know that Teana was in no condition to listen. I accept (and have accepted long ago) that Teana was in no condition to listen. Right now, Teana not being in a position to listen during that mock-battle (and before, since she got yelled at by Vita) is irrelevant to the discussion. Well, perhaps not irrelevant, but it's an accepted fact.

What I'm trying to say, and have been trying to say, is that Nanoha is evidently trying to send a message to the trainees. Subaru is the most obvious logical choice, since she's the one who is conscious enough to receive the message, but it is at least odd that Nanoha did not explicitly mention the message during the shooting.

That is why I've been speculating. The fact that I'm speculating in the first place means that the message was not clear.

And since I don't know what the message was, I don't know whether the message was aimed at Subaru (more logical and likely), or Teana (unlikely, but nobody was acting logically in that situation).

I don't know why Nanoha would be trying to send a message to Teana, if that was her intent, by knocking her out. It's the same amount of lack of knowledge I have about why Nanoha wanted Subaru to see her knocking Teana out. Either way, or if Nanoha was trying to send a message to someone else, the message itself is not clear.

And how are we to know that Nanoha isn't acting logically and rationally in this situation? Somehow I doubt Nanoha wanted to take the risk of binding Teana, especially considering Tea has already demonstrated the ability to use higher-level skills. Risking a bind being broken before backup arrives and a possible counter-attack is not an acceptable option.

Teana was stunned. I didn't say that Nanoha must never have used her second shot to knock Teana out, but that using that shot then and there, and telling Subaru to watch, is unlikely to have been regulation-correct.

I'm fairly sure that Teana got stunned because if she weren't stunned, she wouldn't have been just standing there waiting for Nanoha's second shot. ("Stunned" in this case means both physical concussion and emotional breaking.)

In my view, both the "shot to stun, shot to knock out" and the "shot to stun, bind and arrest" approaches are logical, but highly dependent on the situation, and the mindset and personality of the person in charge. Nanoha already mentioned in episode 6 that "if there is time to shout about the small things, there is even more time to teach them things by knocking them down in a mock battle". Perhaps she's done this kind of disciplinary action before?

Perhaps. This does mean that she's done it before and this is not against the regulations, which is odd considering the quasi-military feel of the TSAB, but is still possible.

Again, I'm not asking whether Nanoha's actions were Good or Evil, I'm asking if they were Lawful.

Considering Subaru is just as responsible for the action as Teana, as they are both a co-ordinated pairing, forcing Subaru to watch is both a reminder that every action has a consequence - Nanoha: "This is the end of the mock-battle for today. You were both "shot down and terminated" - and that, if anything, they should both consider their roles and how they function as a group, because if anything, Teana seems intent on putting people in the line of fire to further her goals (hello episode 7), while Subaru seems pretty compliant and self-destructive, blindly rushing into things without some kind of a plan (see episode 1 end - Teana: "you have thought about how you're going to stop, right??").

That is a very possible message that Nanoha would send. In which case, why didn't she say so explicitly at that time?

Aside from showing sadness and disappointment, Nanoha was completely emotionless during the end sequence. Somehow I very much doubt that her emotions ruled over her logic in that situation, especially considering just how calculated and controlled she executed her attack.

When I get really angry (especially at someone, rather than angry in general), I go all emotionless as well. I'd never say (at least, not when I'm calm) that my judgement is not clouded during those times.

Just because Nanoha seems emotionless does not mean that she really is emotionless. I already mentioned it in the post that you linked to: when I'm angry like that, I get a sort of tunnel-vision. This does not mean that, if I were in Nanoha's place, I would pull out a Starlight Breaker. No, I'd do everything exactly by the book, or at least as much of the book as I remember. And if there's something else in the book that I forgot, which may be anything from a tiny detail to several whole chapters on training discipline, I'm not going to know about that.

Emotion does not exist in a binary on-off state. I'm of the opinion that Nanoha, at that time, had enough emotion overruling her logic to at least not tell Subaru why she had to watch Teana getting shot the second time. Logic, or at least enough time around human nature, would easily have told Nanoha that if she did something like that, the next look Subaru gives her would be one of abject hatred. Logic would also tell her that Subaru would be less receptive to any lessons taught in that state, directly after seeing her best friend shot down by her idol.

I'm not sure why people keep saying that if Nanoha had really been angry, Teana would not have survived. It is entirely possible (and indeed, is what I think happened) that Nanoha did get angry enough to stop thinking entirely clearly, and yet have enough cold logic remaining (indeed, more than she might have, since the anger burned away any feelings of forgiveness or friendship for the moment) to tactically bind Subaru while taking care of Teana.

I just want an answer to this question: if Nanoha was trying to send a message (to whomever), then why did she not mention that message explicitly, instead of by implication?

[Fuyu no Sora]

Spoiler for For lenght:

Originally Posted by dkellis

Gah. I really need to work on being clear in my posts.

I know that Teana was in no condition to listen. I accept (and have accepted long ago) that Teana was in no condition to listen. Right now, Teana not being in a position to listen during that mock-battle (and before, since she got yelled at by Vita) is irrelevant to the discussion. Well, perhaps not irrelevant, but it's an accepted fact.

What I'm trying to say, and have been trying to say, is that Nanoha is evidently trying to send a message to the trainees. Subaru is the most obvious logical choice, since she's the one who is conscious enough to receive the message, but it is at least odd that Nanoha did not explicitly mention the message during the shooting.

That is why I've been speculating. The fact that I'm speculating in the first place means that the message was not clear.

And since I don't know what the message was, I don't know whether the message was aimed at Subaru (more logical and likely), or Teana (unlikely, but nobody was acting logically in that situation).

I don't know why Nanoha would be trying to send a message to Teana, if that was her intent, by knocking her out. It's the same amount of lack of knowledge I have about why Nanoha wanted Subaru to see her knocking Teana out. Either way, or if Nanoha was trying to send a message to someone else, the message itself is not clear.



Teana was stunned. I didn't say that Nanoha must never have used her second shot to knock Teana out, but that using that shot then and there, and telling Subaru to watch, is unlikely to have been regulation-correct.

I'm fairly sure that Teana got stunned because if she weren't stunned, she wouldn't have been just standing there waiting for Nanoha's second shot. ("Stunned" in this case means both physical concussion and emotional breaking.)



Perhaps. This does mean that she's done it before and this is not against the regulations, which is odd considering the quasi-military feel of the TSAB, but is still possible.

Again, I'm not asking whether Nanoha's actions were Good or Evil, I'm asking if they were Lawful.



That is a very possible message that Nanoha would send. In which case, why didn't she say so explicitly at that time?



When I get really angry (especially at someone, rather than angry in general), I go all emotionless as well. I'd never say (at least, not when I'm calm) that my judgement is not clouded during those times.

Just because Nanoha seems emotionless does not mean that she really is emotionless. I already mentioned it in the post that you linked to: when I'm angry like that, I get a sort of tunnel-vision. This does not mean that, if I were in Nanoha's place, I would pull out a Starlight Breaker. No, I'd do everything exactly by the book, or at least as much of the book as I remember. And if there's something else in the book that I forgot, which may be anything from a tiny detail to several whole chapters on training discipline, I'm not going to know about that.

Emotion does not exist in a binary on-off state. I'm of the opinion that Nanoha, at that time, had enough emotion overruling her logic to at least not tell Subaru why she had to watch Teana getting shot the second time. Logic, or at least enough time around human nature, would easily have told Nanoha that if she did something like that, the next look Subaru gives her would be one of abject hatred. Logic would also tell her that Subaru would be less receptive to any lessons taught in that state, directly after seeing her best friend shot down by her idol.

I'm not sure why people keep saying that if Nanoha had really been angry, Teana would not have survived. It is entirely possible (and indeed, is what I think happened) that Nanoha did get angry enough to stop thinking entirely clearly, and yet have enough cold logic remaining (indeed, more than she might have, since the anger burned away any feelings of forgiveness or friendship for the moment) to tactically bind Subaru while taking care of Teana.

I just want an answer to this question: if Nanoha was trying to send a message (to whomever), then why did she not mention that message explicitly, instead of by implication?

You know, in real life they don't always explain everything. You have to figure somethings out for yourself.

[Klashikari]

^

side note : you aren't oblidge to fully quote one's post heh ^^"



This is exactly the problem dkellis is pointing :let's say that Nanoha actions had the objective to teach them a lesson.
If you have to do that, why in the hell you do it without explaning it?

this doesn't make sense at all, and i understand why dkellis is rather confused here (and i think he isn't the only one boggled by this lack of explanation to the RIGHT person)

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by dkellis

I just want an answer to this question: if Nanoha was trying to send a message (to whomever), then why did she not mention that message explicitly, instead of by implication?

Most likely the talking part will come next episode. Right now was the 'action' part that was needed to convey the meaning of the message, the words will come later.

So why didn't they put the words in the same episode?

Dramatic effect. The ending would not have been so dramatic if it ended with people talking about the meaning of the message.

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Most likely the talking part will come next episode. Right now was the 'action' part that was needed to convey the meaning of the message, the words will come later.

So why didn't they put the words in the same episode?

Dramatic effect. The ending would not have been so dramatic if it ended with people talking about the meaning of the message.

And to make us speculate. Maybe?

[Keroko]

That too, the more there is to speculate, the more people will be watching if they can go "Ah-HAH! I told you so!". It's a solid marketing strategy.

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by Keroko

That too, the more there is to speculate, the more people will be watching if they can go "Ah-HAH! I told you so!". It's a solid marketing strategy.

Finally someone brings a lighter note to the discussion. I agree. It's gonna be funny if people around here start going "Ah-HAH! I told you so" .

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

This is exactly the problem dkellis is pointing :let's say that Nanoha actions had the objective to teach them a lesson.
If you have to do that, why in the hell you do it without explaning it?

this doesn't make sense at all, and i understand why dkellis is rather confused here (and i think he isn't the only one boggled by this lack of explanation to the RIGHT person)

You get it next episode, along with juicy flashback to tie it all together.

Like any good lesson that needs to be taught, a period of reflection is required to drive that message home. Whether or not Teana and Subaru have enough grey matter between them to get what Nanoha is trying to teach them is another matter entirely.

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Like any good lesson that needs to be taught, a period of reflection is required to drive that message home. Whether or not Teana and Subaru have enough grey matter between them to get what Nanoha is trying to teach them is another matter entirely.

Well, I think it's a bit unfair to claim that Teana isn't intelligent. (Subaru, well, her very character archetype is that which puts actions before thought, so I'll leave it at that.) If nothing else, she does come up with some convoluted tactics and strategies.

This episode itself is a good example of how smart people can still do unbelievably stupid things.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by dkellis

Well, I think it's a bit unfair to claim that Teana isn't intelligent. (Subaru, well, her very character archetype is that which puts actions before thought, so I'll leave it at that.) If nothing else, she does come up with some convoluted tactics and strategies.

This episode itself is a good example of how smart people can still do unbelievably stupid things.

Given that she shows that she's willing to sacrifice others to further her goals; allows her emotions to get in the way of her judgment; doesn't listen to reason; is unable to be taught despite being given numerous chances to do otherwise; unable to plan and execute effectively; rarely gives thought to the consequences...

Hmmm... granted, it might be unfair to label her as stupid, but I see no evidence to suggest otherwise at this point in time. I once said Subaru was self-destructive, but come to think of it, Teana is worse: she is willing to do anything, anything, to prove that she and her brother's style of magic is strong. Even if that means getting herself or the others around her seriously injured.

Would you want that in your team?

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Would you want that in your team?

Different types of "smart": I'd like someone with Teana's tactical prowess on my team, but not with her problems. To borrow a line regarding Batman, Teana doesn't just have issues, she has the trade paperbacks.

Hm... Bat-Teana. Teana-na-na-na-na-na-na. Never mind.

EDIT: I also think that either the comments about Teana's issues are a bit overblown, or the TSAB really has problems in its psych evaluation department.

[FlareKnight]

I'm sure we'll get the explanations in the next episode. Maybe Nanoha wanted to give the shock of the experience first then explain after. Clearly Teana isn't getting her explanation until she regains consciousness. But no time like the present to give Subaru her answers.

Certainly Teana is an intelligent person or else she wouldn't have come up with the strategy. Problem is the other influences on her right now. The effect her dead brother has on her, feeling inadequate, and messing up in the last mission. Both smart and stupid people can do stupid things, the smart people though have the potential to do very dangerous stupid things.

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Both smart and stupid people can do stupid things, the smart people though have the potential to do very dangerous stupid things.

True. There's that level of difference between doing stupid things, and doing stupid things creatively.

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by dkellis

True. There's that level of difference between doing stupid things, and doing stupid things creatively.

Creatively dangerous you mean.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I'm sure we'll get the explanations in the next episode. Maybe Nanoha wanted to give the shock of the experience first then explain after. Clearly Teana isn't getting her explanation until she regains consciousness. But no time like the present to give Subaru her answers.

Certainly Teana is an intelligent person or else she wouldn't have come up with the strategy. Problem is the other influences on her right now. The effect her dead brother has on her, feeling inadequate, and messing up in the last mission. Both smart and stupid people can do stupid things, the smart people though have the potential to do very dangerous stupid things.

Originally Posted by dkellis

True. There's that level of difference between doing stupid things, and doing stupid things creatively.

This I can agree on. And hopefully we get Nanoha's line of thought in the next episode, either directly or through one of the onlookers (such as Fate and/or Vita). Given the preview for episode 9, it is clear that Nanoha feels very bad for what she had to do, but I expect that she'll state clearly that she had no other choice, especially given the past events that will be brought up to tie in with the lessons learned.

In any rate, it is clearly the intentions of the anime directors to have both the main characters and the viewers reflect and think about what has happened at the end of the episode. If anything, a period of quiet reflection to think about the events has a more powerful effect of pushing the incoming message home than actually explaining it away beforehand. A cliffhanger, if you will.

[KempoCatholic]

Wow, I really can't keep up with this thread. I guess it's a bad time in the Nanoha fandom to be busy with RL stuff. After last episode's much more sedated discussion, this one seems to be shooting ahead quite nicely, and without moving off-topic to boot.

Anyway,I have to say that as much as I am looking forward to all the character development we're going to be getting next week, I hope we see some more activity from our villains as well. I'm hoping that this controversy with Teana and Nanoha's past doesn't end up just being a footnote in their training, but has real impact in the way that the story turns out. Specifically, I want the enemy or event that messed up Nanoha so badly to be something connected to the villains this season, instead of just being a driving force for her White Devil mode.

::edit:: spelling...

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by KempoCatholic

Wow, I really can't keep up with this thread. I guess it's a bad time in the Nanoha fandom to be busy with RL stuff. After last episode's much more sedated discussion, this one seems to be shooting ahead quite nicely, and without moving off-topic to boot.

Anyway,I have to say that as much as I am looking forward to all the character development we're going to be getting next week, I hope we see some more activity from our villains as well. I'm hoping that this controversy with Teana and Nanoha's past doesn't end up just being a footnote in their training, but has real impact in the way that the story turns out. Specifically, I want the enemy or event that messed up Nanoha so badly to be something connected to the villains this season, instead of just being a driving force for her White Devil mode.

::edit:: spelling...

Hopefully we'll see the real 'White Devil' in this season. Speaking of Devils, it just ocurred to me that maybe we'll see Nanoha go to the evil side in this season.

[krisslanza]

I'm actually kinda wondering if Fate might go bad if there is anything in that Project F that might make her so... That'd be interesting. But Nanoha going bad wouldn't be too bad either.

We need another ubar Nanoha vs Fate fight. It'd be EPIC!

Gosh. I WANNA SEE EPISODE 9 NAO >_<

[Klashikari]

My only fear about Project F is a possible way to introduce Dark Fate...
don't get me wrong, to be more serious : they can actually make a deus ex machina and introduce a controlled alicia (now if it ever happens, our lovely doctor merits DEATH)

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

I'm actually kinda wondering if Fate might go bad if there is anything in that Project F that might make her so... That'd be interesting. But Nanoha going bad wouldn't be too bad either.

We need another ubar Nanoha vs Fate fight. It'd be EPIC!

Gosh. I WANNA SEE EPISODE 9 NAO >_<

My reasoning is the following: We have three seasons. We have three Aces. 2 out of 3 were bad. Those two are Fate and Hayate. That leaves us Nanoha. C'mon, it would be interesting seeing Nanoha go all 'White Devil' (The real White Devil) on the TSAB, fighting for the villains (like Spaghetti). No?