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Old 2014-02-27, 06:56   Link #2041
LevelSeven
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Though you seem to be one of the people who agrees with me that Touma did some pretty evil things this book even if it was ultimately justified...
yup ;D

im sure this is also the reason why most of the fans still think of him as hero or saint, his actions have reasons which cant be seen at the first glance.....

a question to you dniv: do you think accel would kill himself if he was in the situation of touma???

i personally think that, since he was willing to hurt and let himself be killed by the d.m. clones of kakine, he would kill himself (like a real shounen hero )
but this should be discussed in accel thread
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Old 2014-02-27, 07:38   Link #2042
dragon1412
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Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
Spoiler for @alfictions:


Spoiler for @dniv:


Spoiler for @dragon1412:


to be honest i think it will happen like LG-Max: So I think a lot of great shit will happen to the two at the end of 10 NT (or not),
You are quite young aren't you, since it's really hard to explain this to someone haven't experience it, now let's put it in different POV, stand in Othinus shoes, ultimately, the current world is fake after being altered, in our case, let take an example that you were thrown into your class realized that you knew no one, despite they have the same same as your friends, and only you aware of that different, can you behave like normal around those who have the name of your best friends, your lover without being anything like them at all?? same case for the serial killer example, remember that something sound simple to you might be extremely serious to others, that's why they need to investigate the motive, ultimately, the problem never lies in right or wrong since in normal people POV, Othinus is the criminal, while in Othinus POV, all human are literally fake. So, glorified the term would be the human united together to fight a criminal and a girl who is trying to make the world real again, but if you put it in different term, we will see that, the world which is possibly, for the lack of better words, fake, trying to eliminated the last real human and the human who considered herself real trying to destroy all current human happiness. Othinus just happened to be on the side of minority, reverse the situation and put her on majority, it's will turn into that a group is trying to alter the world and the "real" human is trying to protect it. put it more simple, when majority have power over minority, we call them oppression, when minority have power over majority, we call them dictator.

Last edited by dragon1412; 2014-02-27 at 08:00.
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Old 2014-02-27, 08:18   Link #2043
Draco Spirit
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Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
true, but what could they do?? the only thing i see is that they stop the others long enough for touma and othinus to escape.....
i really hope this will happen, at least it would make me starving for the next chapter with touma and othinus are hiding themselfes and the magic+science side are after them....
(but deep inside i hope it because i want to see more chapters focused on accel )
Well they are trained commandos, thanks to Testament they know how to do things like how to evade pursuit.

Also the Sisters includes Last Order... so I'm putting "Touma and Othinus being saved by Accelerator" pretty high up in the likely events list!
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Old 2014-02-27, 08:18   Link #2044
LevelSeven
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You are quite young aren't you, since it's really hard to explain this to someone haven't experience it, now let's put it in different POV, stand in Othinus shoes, ultimately, the current world is fake after being altered, in our case, let take an example that you were thrown into your class realized that you knew no one, despite they have the same same as your friends, and only you aware of that different, can you behave like normal around those who have the name of your best friends, your lover without being anything like them at all?? same case for the serial killer example, remember that something sound simple to you might be extremely serious to others, that's why they need to investigate the motive, ultimately, the problem never lies in right or wrong since in normal people POV, Othinus is the criminal, while in Othinus POV, all human are literally fake. So, glorified the term would be the human united together to fight a criminal and a girl who is trying to make the world real again, but if you put it in different term, we will see that, the world which is possibly, for the lack of better words, fake, trying to eliminated the last real human and the human who considered herself real trying to destroy all current human happiness. Othinus just happened to be on the side of minority, reverse the situation and put her on majority, it's will turn into that a group is trying to alter the world and the "real" human is trying to protect it. put it more simple, when majority have power over minority, we call them oppression, when minority have power over majority, we call them dictator.
XD age is only a number, what counts is the mind/experience (whch can be gathered through age)/ etc., im sure i would be considered young to someone who is lets say 24-30 years old....

what you wrote: i agree but what we discussed isnt the relativistic terms in which we should put othinus....

of course she is victim from one point of view and the monster from another one....
what i tried was to point out was that she is at least on par with others who are not-liked inside the fandom, as example i used accel and fiamma becasue they are similar in some ways or another......

like othinus's alpha world: Touma could also be the monster who caused WW3, instead of the one who stopped it, or the one who stopped the only being which could save the world...

life is confusing, what humans try to do is to bring order into the chaos, i wrote my opinion about Othinus and i can also understand if people have different opinions, like dniv's opinion about the people in the 'fake' worlds...
if i go with her point of view than i would consider Othinus as the victim in this whole story and Touma into the being which prevented her from reaching her home (the place where she can be happy), since he came from the 'fake' world, he is also 'fake' therefore it isnt a big deal if he kills himself and helps Othinus reaching 'her world'.....

but this was her point of view like i understood it.....

people have different opinions about things and this is the reason why dicussions are so interesting , (at least if it is done like now and not like in a few other sites where only because someone is in a minority they start to insult and flame), like you said: remember that something sound simple to you might be extremely serious to others
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Old 2014-02-27, 08:25   Link #2045
LG-MAX
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Originally Posted by Bakaizer View Post
maybe will-san could do something
this is way easier to he at least achieve allies to help him, but I doubt that will solve the situation, like it or not Othinus was responsible for a lot of shit in Hawaii and Bagagge City, I doubt that the leaders of the nations forgive her just because she lost her powers and changed, she will be punished in the end, but need not die.
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Old 2014-02-27, 08:30   Link #2046
LG-MAX
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
I see your point now. Now I understand. You didn't say Touma shouldn't help her, you just was saying he was helping a murderer. This makes more sense, got it.

I also see why you treat those as deaths even though they are fake. Then your point of view is fine even if I don't agree with the fact it's bad per-say.

Though you seem to be one of the people who agrees with me that Touma did some pretty evil things this book even if it was ultimately justified...
I do not agree with the "fake", what happened was not an illusion or a dream, everything was real.
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Old 2014-02-27, 08:57   Link #2047
LevelSeven
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I do not agree with the "fake", what happened was not an illusion or a dream, everything was real.
the exact same way i see them too, first i thought they are incredible good illusions but the way her ability works means that this lives are real and the lives touma ended too....
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Old 2014-02-27, 09:08   Link #2048
dniv
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Originally Posted by LG-MAX View Post
I do not agree with the "fake", what happened was not an illusion or a dream, everything was real.
Ah. I just realized the problem with why we disagree. It may be this:

You believe Kamijou destroyed the potential "other people" that weren't his same friends in that other world and prevented that world's people from existing. Yes, that may be true from another perspective...

Sukoshi (However) even from that perspective, it was arguably not only his right to do so, but also just one of the three choices he could have picked (not doing anything, killing himself, or rejecting the world).

Touma had an impossible choice and he had to pick something. Personally, he chose the world he knows with people he knows over another world with people he doesn't know. It was a human choice... It wasn't a mistake, but it wasn't a perfect choice either.

In Othinus's case, she ended up making the same choice of killing these "possibilities" of people that could be in order to recover the original world that had existed before she had tampered with it because she still believed partly in inherent meaning (that the world as it originally was, was meaningful that way) and she wanted to find someone to understand. Kamachi described her as searching for meaning. In the end, bringing back a world for your friends, bringing back a world in search for meaning. If both actions are as dear to a person because of their deep significance to an individual, then it is likely wrong to call either of them better or one of them more evil, especially if the person does what they think is right.

Personally, I don't see why Accelerator/Fiamma deserve a chance to repent and Othinus doesn't. If it is ultimately true that it is supernatural powers that twist the minds of their users and are ultimately the cause of what those three did, then I can't really blame those three for something they hadn't originally intended/known about, especially if that blame lies elsewhere, and if they make up for it by doing crazy things.

Finally, the main point to think about here is this:

Touma's Imagine Breaker signifies the existence of original meaning. It could either be a reference point to his world or to some other world depending on the individual who uses it. Their perspective helps shape how the world should and will turn out. This is why both Othinus and Touma are justified in returning to their original world. Both worlds have some form of implicit meaning, because there is something under the phases of magic/science that exists without those supernatural powers messing with reality. The fact that there is a reason for why the world is the way it is also makes it meaningful, because it becomes unarbitrary. This might not make sense to someone who hasn't learned about these topics, but regardless I want to point out that the world for an individual is how an individual perceives it. And this is why an individual's reference point to the world affects how they think it should be, and why they are justified in wanting it to return to how it was before it was "corrupted/changed," if we are assuming supernatural powers to be some sort of corruption to the mechanisms of God...

Last edited by dniv; 2014-02-27 at 09:18.
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Old 2014-02-27, 10:55   Link #2049
dragon1412
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Umm... "however" is read as shikashi and Sukoshi meaning is " a little"
Language aside, the problem here is you and me seen Touma and Othinus as independent individuals and the choice they make as well as it's consequence is solely belong to them, LevelSeven seeing the situation as Touma and Othinus choice disregard others.
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Old 2014-02-27, 12:17   Link #2050
demino_hellsin
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I think the simplest idea is that Touma doesn't like the way things turned out so he's trying to save Othinus. It has nothing to do with past experience, just the vast unfairness of the situation.

Othinus won't fight back anymore. Everyone else is out to lynch her. He's in a situation where the right thing to do is watch someone be killed in cold blood by people he cares about. It's oversimplifying but that should be the biggest reason. If Othinus fought back, Touma wouldn't do what he did. If everyone around him took Othinus into custody instead of bombarding her with attacks so one-sidedly, he wouldn't have done what he did.

He just saw something that wasn't fair, just as he saw how the circumstances around Index, Mikoto and every other person he helped wasn't fair.

Sometimes justifications aren't enough to warrant an act. The ends do not justify the means because the means themselves are the end. And Touma didn't want an end where everyone is celebrating the fact they killed someone. He never did for Accel, never for Fiammia, and never even for Biaggio.

Last edited by demino_hellsin; 2014-02-27 at 12:43.
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Old 2014-02-27, 19:34   Link #2051
dniv
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Originally Posted by dragon1412 View Post
Umm... "however" is read as shikashi and Sukoshi meaning is " a little"
Language aside, the problem here is you and me seen Touma and Othinus as independent individuals and the choice they make as well as it's consequence is solely belong to them, LevelSeven seeing the situation as Touma and Othinus choice disregard others.
I'm in quarter 2 of Japanese... I mixed that up sorry... please cut me some slack...

Yes, that is the problem. But I'm saying that even under the perspective where they disregard others, that point would be moot as long as we examined why they are disregarding others, and whether or not they would be justified in doing that for this particular reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
I think the simplest idea is that Touma doesn't like the way things turned out so he's trying to save Othinus. It has nothing to do with past experience, just the vast unfairness of the situation.

Othinus won't fight back anymore. Everyone else is out to lynch her. He's in a situation where the right thing to do is watch someone be killed in cold blood by people he cares about. It's oversimplifying but that should be the biggest reason. If Othinus fought back, Touma wouldn't do what he did. If everyone around him took Othinus into custody instead of bombarding her with attacks so one-sidedly, he wouldn't have done what he did.

He just saw something that wasn't fair, just as he saw how the circumstances around Index, Mikoto and every other person he helped wasn't fair.

Sometimes justifications aren't enough to warrant an act. The ends do not justify the means because the means themselves are the end. And Touma didn't want an end where everyone is celebrating the fact they killed someone. He never did for Accel, never for Fiammia, and never even for Biaggio.
I think this is the second largest reason this time, even though it has been his usual reason for protecting others. I think it's different this time.

This quote is probably the easiest explanation for his motivations this time:
Spoiler for NT 9:


Touma doesn't want to accept a world where smiling people kill a single person for the sake of peace. He doesn't like high ideals talking about the greater good; he cares about people suffering right in front of him (very pragmatically).

If Touma lets Othinus die. If he lets his friends kill her for the sake of the world, then two things would be true. #1 Touma would be letting the person who just saved his life and everyone else in the world, to just die. #2 If he lets her die, then he's accepting a world where individuals are sacrificed for the greater good.

He's protecting Othinus because he understands what this situation is like, and because he just realized that the sort of world that does this isn't a world he would like to live in. I'm not sure what is going to happen next, but I can pretty surely say that he's doing what he's doing right now because he doesn't want to live in a world that forgets about individuals along the way to success/justice/peace/whatever.
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Old 2014-02-27, 20:16   Link #2052
Birdway
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Sorry guys but you should know that this thread is Touma's not Othinus'.

Btw, I think that she can redeem but she will pay for her sins be it by herself or by karma. Just like what happened to Accelerator or Fiamma in the series.
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Old 2014-02-27, 23:20   Link #2053
dniv
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Sorry guys but you should know that this thread is Touma's not Othinus'.

Btw, I think that she can redeem but she will pay for her sins be it by herself or by karma. Just like what happened to Accelerator or Fiamma in the series.
You do realize we're talking about why Touma saved her... your post is the only post not saying anything at all about Touma...
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Old 2014-02-28, 16:03   Link #2054
Miraluka
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You are more into explaining why Othinus should be saved, using Touma as the protector but arguments are all about Othinus, then Fiamma and Accelerator.
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Old 2014-02-28, 17:22   Link #2055
demino_hellsin
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It's a matter of perspective. The subject is the morality of Kamijou's act of protecting Othinus. Partially wether he should succeed or not.

Last edited by demino_hellsin; 2014-02-28 at 17:45.
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Old 2014-02-28, 19:12   Link #2056
dniv
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You are more into explaining why Othinus should be saved, using Touma as the protector but arguments are all about Othinus, then Fiamma and Accelerator.
I'm talking about why Kamijou wants to save her i.e. how he feels about villains, that has to do with his mentality and it is therefore about him.

The traits of the people in question like those three were what determined how Touma treated them.

That's really what I've been trying to focus on...

Kamijou's perspective is what's interesting anyway after that ending...
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Old 2014-02-28, 19:15   Link #2057
LevelSeven
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he will succeed, i dont doubt it a single bit (how and which way they will succeed is unknown), if you have a acceptable personality and a ok-past AND met touma you will not die, as proof: every char who appeared in toaru, terra was a idiot from the beginning to the ending......

what I discussed (or tried to proof) was that touma is not a saint or a hero, i used his othinus-protection as proof, in fact after this discussion i realised that he killed more beings than accel and fiamma.....

if this is bad or acceptable depends on the point of view, for me at least he have exactly done That what he tried to stop in the previous volumes.....
he placed his selfish goal over that of the lives from millions, for me (and only my opinion): he is 'worser' (not character wise (even if he isnt my favo), i mean in a morality point of view (the main reason why fans hating accel ))than accel now, not only killing more beings, his goal was also only for him and that in contrast to accel/fiammas goal: sake of others.......

PS: the main reason why fiamma and accel was used: they are the best examples....
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Old 2014-02-28, 19:20   Link #2058
dniv
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he will succeed, i dont doubt it a single bit (how and which way they will succeed is unknown), if you have a acceptable personality and a ok-past AND met touma you will not die, as proof: every char who appeared in toaru, terra was a idiot from the beginning to the ending......

what I discussed (or tried to proof) was that touma is not a saint or a hero, i used his othinus-protection as proof, in fact after this discussion i realised that he killed more beings than accel and fiamma.....

if this is bad or acceptable depends on the point of view, for me at least he have exactly done That what he tried to stop in the previous volumes.....
he placed his selfish goal over that of the lives from millions, for me (and only my opinion): he is 'worser' than accel now, not only killing more beings, his goal was also only for him and that in contrast to accel/fiammas goal: sake of others.......

PS: the main reason why fiamma and accel was used: they are the best examples....
One thing you forget is that he killed everyone and also brought all of his friends back to life. He was trying to revive them, not just kill. Accelerator and Fiamma weren't trying to do that, so I don't think it's fair to say it that way. If he were just killing people, that would be completely different. Trying to recover his friends by rejecting the people in front of him is definitely not just killing them... he's trying to save his friends. What he was doing for himself was also for his friends, just the friends that he knew. This is why the way you are saying it sounds a little weird to me. He might have ended up killing more people, but he also brought everyone back to normal and that's a lot more people saved than anyone else has...
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Old 2014-02-28, 19:27   Link #2059
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Kamijou's perspective is what's interesting anyway after that ending...
Meh, all is pointless because Touma always will forgive them and save them all.

You know what would be interesting? (at least for me)

Touma hunting down someone he considers beyond salvation or at least shows his ill will towards someone... like the terrorist guy from vol.17 where Touma didn't stop until he saw him suffering until the plane stoped.
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Old 2014-02-28, 19:29   Link #2060
dniv
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Meh, all is pointless because Touma always will forgive them and save them all.

You know what would be interesting? (at least for me)

Touma hunting down someone he considers beyond salvation or at least shows his ill will towards someone... like the terrorist guy from vol.17 where Touma didn't stop until he saw him suffering until the plane stoped.
It's interesting to me how he does it even if I know what's going to happen. Dark Touma is interesting too, but that needs a reason to happen. Maybe that'll happen with Laura?
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