er...just what are your definitions of "moe" and "loli"? Or what do you mean by them?
"Loli" by itself is probably a shorter form of "Lolita", i.e. a sexually precocious young girl. Despite what Nishio puts her through, Nadeko does NOT strike me as a lolita at all, she's just way too naive. (Now, if she behaved like Hitagi does in Mayoi Snail, THEN she'd be a lolita. I will admit, however, that what she says in the CM for her DVD, is quite suggestive...but I'm going to have to read the novels to find out the context, if that's where it was taken from.)
Of course, going by that, Hachikuji isn't a lolita either.
"Moe" isn't (or at least, it wasn't) used to describe a person. It's actually a feeling that's induced in someone. Remember when Hitagi coined "tore" and at least one of the fansub groups translated it as "fascination"? That's basically what "moe" implies, a fascination with something, be it glasses, cuteness etc etc.
For what typically induces a "moe" reaction, Tsuchi's definition
Spoiler for for length:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuchi
Nadeko's probably the clearest embodiment of 'moe' in Bakemonogatari.
She's cute, she's quiet and shy, she is also pretty young and looks fragile enough to make you want to protect her, etc.
Anyway, the definition of 'moe' is fuzzy nowadays due to many bastardizations and misunderstandings, and many times it's mentioned when 'cute' should be used. But I guess the consensus there is that 'moe' doesn't imply a sexual impulse.
is the one that I'm familiar with, the most important points being that the predominating feeling is of wanting to protect, not a sexual impulse.
Between Mayoi and Nadeko...I would say that Mayoi does not induce a "moe" feeling AT ALL, unless you happen to like little girls who will bite you and stutter over your name. Nadeko, on the other hand, does. Even in Koyomi, believe it or not.
"Loli" by itself is probably a shorter form of "Lolita", i.e. a sexually precocious young girl. Despite what Nishio puts her through, Nadeko does NOT strike me as a lolita at all, she's just way too naive. (Now, if she behaved like Hitagi does in Mayoi Snail, THEN she'd be a lolita. I will admit, however, that what she says in the CM for her DVD, is quite suggestive...but I'm going to have to read the novels to find out the context, if that's where it was taken from.)
I think that in our language nowadays it is just more easier to refer to a person as the feeling they induce in us.
As for Nadeko, all I can say is that she is definitely sexually precocious. Like how everyone here refers to her as the "last boss" she is just might be an enemy lurking around in the shadows. And the best part is that Hitagi is not aware of her existence...unless Kanbaru said anything. Besides, Koyomi himself finds Nadeko to be sexually deviant....at least that's what I got.
As for Nadeko, all I can say is that she is definitely sexually precocious. Like how everyone here refers to her as the "last boss" she is just might be an enemy lurking around in the shadows. And the best part is that Hitagi is not aware of her existence...unless Kanbaru said anything. Besides, Koyomi himself finds Nadeko to be sexually deviant....at least that's what I got.
Er...how do you feel she is sexually deviant? Or to be more specific, how is she acting beyond her years in terms of sexual behaviour (flirting, being promiscuous etc)?
I just rewatched her scenes in episode 11, and whilst she definitely might induce inappropriate reactions out of most guys, she doesn't seem to do that intentionally. All I got out of it was that she is really really naive (even if she is sensitive about how others look at her, e.g. Shinobu).
Unless she's a really good actress, of course.
As for her scene in episode 14...it's not as if Koyomi can see her and know what she's wearing. And I have actually known someone who wore lingerie to bed in elementary school, if you think that is an indication of someone's sexual self-awareness.
As I alluded to before, her "I'll teach you, using your body" in the DVD CM, seems to be the most suggestive she intentionally gets, at least to me.
As for Koyomi's view...I feel that his actions - lifting up her skirt, his reaction to being able to hold on to the swimming costume - that's in some way his reaction to her been too cute, too "moe"! so-to-speak, for words. And he actually feels that it's wrong to be lifting up her skirt, which suggests to me that he sees her as a pure thing to be protected.
Of course...I'm probably influenced also by the discussion in the 4th atogatari...where Kamiya Hiroshi and Hanazawa Kana touch on how Nadeko makes guys feel like they want to protect her...
I fully agree with karice67 here, but I'd like to add a few details.
Thankfully enough, characters in Bakemonogatari can't be fully enclosed in a stereotype. They're nothing close to being completely plain and they give you quite some surprises.
Hachikuji is my favorite character in the series because she's kinda unusual. She can act like a child and the next second she can be giving wise advice to Araragi. She seems to be a suspiciously good source of information sometimes. Then they fight like two little kids the same age. Conversations with her have a special lucidity to them. It's hard to give her one of those "titles" (lolita, moe, tsundere or whatever). She seems nothing like sexually precocious not counting maybe a couple of jokes here or there. She, sometimes, even resembles an old lady in the body of a little girl.
Nadeko, on the other hand, is a full-fledged "moe" character... except for, yeah, that couple of details that were mentioned in this page. Which I consider just a playful misdirection game from the author to the readers/watchers. That scene with the lingerie made me chuckle. Not to mention the "2 gaijin" scene at Episode 10.
Seeing things from Araragi's perspective could be kinda misleading anyway. See what happened with Hanekawa? He didn't seem to expect her to love him! At all!
She's Tsukihi's age - maybe 13/14? (I'd wager novel readers might be able to tell us). Young enough for "lolita" to be used...except that she doesn't act or think like one.
And word on how Hachikuji shouldn't just be pigeon-holed, and on the fact that we should remembered that we're looking at Bakemonogatari through Araragi-tinted glasses.
Er...how do you feel she is sexually deviant? Or to be more specific, how is she acting beyond her years in terms of sexual behaviour (flirting, being promiscuous etc)?
I just rewatched her scenes in episode 11, and whilst she definitely might induce inappropriate reactions out of most guys, she doesn't seem to do that intentionally. All I got out of it was that she is really really naive (even if she is sensitive about how others look at her, e.g. Shinobu).
Unless she's a really good actress, of course.
As for her scene in episode 14...it's not as if Koyomi can see her and know what she's wearing. And I have actually known someone who wore lingerie to bed in elementary school, if you think that is an indication of someone's sexual self-awareness.
As I alluded to before, her "I'll teach you, using your body" in the DVD CM, seems to be the most suggestive she intentionally gets, at least to me.
As for Koyomi's view...I feel that his actions - lifting up her skirt, his reaction to being able to hold on to the swimming costume - that's in some way his reaction to her been too cute, too "moe"! so-to-speak, for words. And he actually feels that it's wrong to be lifting up her skirt, which suggests to me that he sees her as a pure thing to be protected.
Of course...I'm probably influenced also by the discussion in the 4th atogatari...where Kamiya Hiroshi and Hanazawa Kana touch on how Nadeko makes guys feel like they want to protect her...
SPOIL to the MAX!!
Spoiler:
During the snake arc, Araragi said that he will visit Nadeko in her one day and that's what he did during the summer. When he got there it seems that she was home alone so he thought that he should go home, but before he could say anything she instantly locked the door. She was at the time also dressed very whorish-like. Anyways she fed Araragi alcohol chocolate and super-carbonated soda that supposely give an alcohol-like effect. She then purposed that they should play the "King's Game" which is basically Truth or Dare but without the truth part. Araragi said that it is impossible to play that game with two people so they ended up playing twister. All in all she pretty much threw herself at him.
Mayoi is completely depraved. How can THAT be moe :\
In any case, I see what you guys mean, but I don't really understand the reason why "moe" exists as a definition, because it's so subtle... But thanks for the clarification.
How is she depraved? Because she calls Araragi a pervert and a virgin? Well of course she knows what they mean, seeing as she's probably around her 20's technically (died 10 years ago, is probably around 10 to 12 when she died) and you can't deny that Araragi is a bit of a pervert (I mean, he tries to grope her whenever he sees her) and she just guessed her was a virgin because of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by omimon
SPOIL to the MAX!!
Spoiler:
During the snake arc, Araragi said that he will visit Nadeko in her one day and that's what he did during the summer. When he got there it seems that she was home alone so he thought that he should go home, but before he could say anything she instantly locked the door. She was at the time also dressed very whorish-like. Anyways she fed Araragi alcohol chocolate and super-carbonated soda that supposely give an alcohol-like effect. She then purposed that they should play the "King's Game" which is basically Truth or Dare but without the truth part. Araragi said that it is impossible to play that game with two people so they ended up playing twister. All in all she pretty much threw herself at him.
During the snake arc, Araragi said that he will visit Nadeko in her one day and that's what he did during the summer. When he got there it seems that she was home alone so he thought that he should go home, but before he could say anything she instantly locked the door. She was at the time also dressed very whorish-like. Anyways she fed Araragi alcohol chocolate and super-carbonated soda that supposely give an alcohol-like effect. She then purposed that they should play the "King's Game" which is basically Truth or Dare but without the truth part. Araragi said that it is impossible to play that game with two people so they ended up playing twister. All in all she pretty much threw herself at him.
I'm not that surprised by this since I figured out Nadeko isn't as innocent as she looks a long time ago, but wow... that's some nice stuff. I would have LOVED to see that animated. OVA please?
During the snake arc, Araragi said that he will visit Nadeko in her one day and that's what he did during the summer. When he got there it seems that she was home alone so he thought that he should go home, but before he could say anything she instantly locked the door. She was at the time also dressed very whorish-like. Anyways she fed Araragi alcohol chocolate and super-carbonated soda that supposely give an alcohol-like effect. She then purposed that they should play the "King's Game" which is basically Truth or Dare but without the truth part. Araragi said that it is impossible to play that game with two people so they ended up playing twister. All in all she pretty much threw herself at him.
You know, I would have believed if you'd said something like "wait til you read the novels" or something.
Spoiler for er...somewhat OT I guess:
I'm looking forward to reading these novels. There is a question of whether this is what she was like originally, or whether it's development that's happened because she's become more confident and has also realised that Araragi is just that dense. Though given that we see everything through his eyes, I suppose we'll never know.
Oh, and going back to Nadeko's age. From ep 9, Koyomi is four years older, so she's around 14...
During the snake arc, Araragi said that he will visit Nadeko in her one day and that's what he did during the summer. When he got there it seems that she was home alone so he thought that he should go home, but before he could say anything she instantly locked the door. She was at the time also dressed very whorish-like. Anyways she fed Araragi alcohol chocolate and super-carbonated soda that supposely give an alcohol-like effect. She then purposed that they should play the "King's Game" which is basically Truth or Dare but without the truth part. Araragi said that it is impossible to play that game with two people so they ended up playing twister. All in all she pretty much threw herself at him.
Ah so that's where the line in advertisement of Nadeko BD/DVD came from...
During the snake arc, Araragi said that he will visit Nadeko in her one day and that's what he did during the summer. When he got there it seems that she was home alone so he thought that he should go home, but before he could say anything she instantly locked the door. She was at the time also dressed very whorish-like. Anyways she fed Araragi alcohol chocolate and super-carbonated soda that supposely give an alcohol-like effect. She then purposed that they should play the "King's Game" which is basically Truth or Dare but without the truth part. Araragi said that it is impossible to play that game with two people so they ended up playing twister. All in all she pretty much threw herself at him.
Now I'm chuckling even more.
Quote:
Oh, and going back to Nadeko's age. From ep 9, Koyomi is four years older, so she's around 14...
How is she depraved? Because she calls Araragi a pervert and a virgin? Well of course she knows what they mean, seeing as she's probably around her 20's technically (died 10 years ago, is probably around 10 to 12 when she died) and you can't deny that Araragi is a bit of a pervert (I mean, he tries to grope her whenever he sees her) and she just guessed her was a virgin because of it.
"Depraved" isn't the right word. Crazy. Psychotic, something like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon
I'm not that surprised by this since I figured out Nadeko isn't as innocent as she looks a long time ago, but wow... that's some nice stuff. I would have LOVED to see that animated. OVA please?
Possibly next season. There's room to rearrange the chronology, AFAIK.
She's too young, she's too bland, and uninteresting.
As a song from The Sound of Music once put it:
Quote:
Your life, little girl, is an empty page that men will want to write on.
At the time, it seemed cute. Now in these days of political correctness, it seems almost threatening. But the underlying truth is that people become interesting partly because of their experiences. Just give her time.
Finally got around to watching this. Great episode, really funny. Tsundere service was really good too. Hitagi FTW!
Quote:
Originally Posted by omimon
SPOIL to the MAX!!
Spoiler:
During the snake arc, Araragi said that he will visit Nadeko in her one day and that's what he did during the summer. When he got there it seems that she was home alone so he thought that he should go home, but before he could say anything she instantly locked the door. She was at the time also dressed very whorish-like. Anyways she fed Araragi alcohol chocolate and super-carbonated soda that supposely give an alcohol-like effect. She then purposed that they should play the "King's Game" which is basically Truth or Dare but without the truth part. Araragi said that it is impossible to play that game with two people so they ended up playing twister. All in all she pretty much threw herself at him.
They should have went for a full 24 episode series and not cut all of the good stuff.
hey, brand new to the forum and love this anime, the only thing i dont understand is how there going to finish off everything and tie it up in only one more episode.
thought episode 14 was pretty good, good ending and 15 will hopefully come out soon.
Location: Perth, Western Australia - Down Where The City Meets The Sea
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by kakajd
hey, brand new to the forum and love this anime, the only thing i dont understand is how there going to finish off everything and tie it up in only one more episode.
thought episode 14 was pretty good, good ending and 15 will hopefully come out soon.
all they will be finishing is the Nadeko arc which will finish season 1 (hopefully we get more seasons)
there are more novels though that the series didnt cover and we can just hope that on how well Bakemonogatari did that they decide to commit and animate all the light novels.
