Aquarion EVOL - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[Destined_Fate]

Than you just aren't that invested in it than.

That's untrue, especially since the love of Genesis was based off a lie and was really about a jealous reincarnated dog. Apollo and Silvia may have loved each other but they weren't destined for each other even though later they thought they were. However, after saving the world they made their own destiny that was apart from the original one and this is the one Amata and Mikono are tied to.

Which explains why Mykage was pissed off about Zessica trying to make a promise, like Pollon did(Though unlike Zessica, Pollon made his in secret) who had tricked Mykage in the last cycle, with Amata and he cut her short even though he still plans to keep his end of the promise to her.

[crayven]

I'm still not sure about this pregnancy thing.. Isn't Mykage's promise to Zessica simply to open the dimensional gate in exchange for him taking her body (which we learned this ep)? He said that Kagura's turn would be after Zessica had fulfilled her promise in ep 19 and it's happening just as expected.

[Destined_Fate]

No that was not the promise he made with her. He took advantage of her depression over Amata, Mix taking a hit for her just intensified her depression since she wanted to just die/go away at that point because it hurt too much to watch Amata from afar, and promised to take that hand, Amata, which he would rip away, from Mikono, and give it to her. Only Mykage meant what he said, literally and physically(While Zessica just wanted him to love her of his own free will). After all, he never told Zessica why he wanted her body, and even erased her memories of the promise which he forced on her due to her fragile mental state, just that he wanted it. Considering how he tried to go woman before and totally loves Apollonius even after all this time as well as him happily feeling Zessica's stomach, to birth Apollonius, and breasts, to nuture and raise his lover than abandon Zessica's body afterwards. That baby he wants being Apollonius forced to reincarnate makes this theory seem more plausible than just him wanting a baby just cuz.

Futhermore, Mykage never said he had to complete his side of the bargin before taking her body only that he would eventually get around to it just like she would eventually lose her body to him when he saw it fit. The promise was always loopsided in Mykage's favor since he's the one that made the terms which he forced Zessica to accept.

I see him punishing Kagura by forceing him from Mikono(Or even torturing her personally while he's powerless) than trying to make her merge him back into Amata(The one that can actually be put to use) thus making him, Kagura, cease existing altogether.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Qilin

What started out as a beautiful romance between an angel and a human spanning several millenia turned into a dog's attempt to deceive everyone around it to steal its master's partner.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Which explains why Mykage was pissed off about Zessica trying to make a promise, like Pollon did(Though unlike Zessica, Pollon made his in secret)

Yeeesh, some people keep talking about Pollon as if he's the most fiendish fiend to ever be fiendish, when all he did was make a wish to see someone he loved again in his next life. He didn't even make a wish to have Celiane fall in love with him. He didn't wish to deceive anyone, and he never tried to deceive anyone. When he was Apollo, he didn't know anything for sure about what his previous life was, didn't commit to being Apollonius, and didn't even care about his past life. He wasn't the type to be bogged down in the past.

Besides, how do you know that Pollon made his promise "in secret" ? Hey, for all we know he could have told Celiane and Apollonius all about it! "Bark. Ruff. Bark bark. Woof." He was a dog: he couldn't talk.

[Destined_Fate]

Well Pollon did know about the promise and he still decided that he should be allowed a chance to get with Celiane in the next life anyway even though she didn't even notice him as anything more than a cute pet. It doesn't matter if he planned to deceive anyone, what matters is that's exactly what happened because of that wish he made despite knowing how much Apollonius and Celiane loved each other and wanted to always be together.

He wished it under a star or however romancey they portrayed it. What did happen is that Celiane knew nothing of this desire of his and was fully expecting to get back with Apollonius.

[KleenexGhost]

I would call Amata's infatuation over Mikono seriously unhealthy. His affection for her seems to be based off of love at first sight, a chance meeting, and 1 thing they had in common (their mutual feelings of being useless.) He's obsessed with her, to the point where the majority of his actions are influenced by her in some way shape or form.

Zessica too. Since episode 8 she's been desperately obsessed with trying to get Amata to accept her feelings. Whether it be changing her personality and manner of dress to putting herself in danger just so he'll notice her and when that didn't work she almost got herself abducted by Izumo.

Kagura has just been there to pursue Mikono and be an obstacle to Amata and the other protagonists. Simply just the evil rival character you see in most anime or manga.

Mikono? Well simply put she's just been a trophy and essentially somewhat of a MacGuffin girl. Vital to the plot and source of the main character's affection, with some great power that the good guys and bad guys are fighting over.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Yeeesh, some people keep talking about Pollon as if he's the most fiendish fiend to ever be fiendish, when all he did was make a wish to see someone he loved again in his next life. He didn't even make a wish to have Celiane fall in love with him. He didn't wish to deceive anyone, and he never tried to deceive anyone. When he was Apollo, he didn't know anything for sure about what his previous life was, didn't commit to being Apollonius, and didn't even care about his past life. He wasn't the type to be bogged down in the past.

Besides, how do you know that Pollon made his promise "in secret" ? Hey, for all we know he could have told Celiane and Apollonius all about it! "Bark. Ruff. Bark bark. Woof." He was a dog: he couldn't talk.

You know, I might not have been completely serious when I made that post. That said, I'm pretty sure that Pollon had no intention of deceiving anyone, but that's still what he did whether he wanted to or not. It was a consequence of his wish. The fact remains that he still throws a wrench into the whole idealized romance between Apollonius and Silvia.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

I would call Amata's infatuation over Mikono seriously unhealthy. His affection for her seems to be based off of love at first sight, a chance meeting, and 1 thing they had in common (their mutual feelings of being useless.) He's obsessed with her, to the point where the majority of his actions are influenced by her in some way shape or form.

And the majority of Andy's actions are influenced by Mix in some way shape or form (hell, he was attracted to her when all he knew about her is that she filled his holes), to say nothing of Jin who fell in love with Yunoha after seeing her cry, defected to Vega and eventually sacrificing himself for Yunoha. Does this mean they're obsessed, too? This is the sort of series where love is blown out of proportions. But Amata hasn't killed or harmed people casually to get Mikono, it didn't even occur to him to take her by force, he didn't sneak after her when she left Neo-Deava, and for that matter he didn't even try to restrain her. And were Mikono to reject him, I'm sure he'd be crushed, but from what we've seen of him he most probably wouldn't get a debilitating near-suicidal case of depression or go on a rampage.

And while we're on the topic of trophies, Amata may still end up as one for Zessica, as we've seen that this show doesn't really care about convulted developments. The writing is in a corner with Zessica and Kagura: as things are right now, their characters are so singularly focused on their respective love interests that there are not many choices about how to handle them: they'll most likely either get killed off or get Amata/Mikono in one way or another. Neither is able to move on, Kagura would probably die before giving up on Mikono, and Zessica has already demonstrated that Amata has become her entire reason for being.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Qilin

You know, I might not have been completely serious when I made that post. That said, I'm pretty sure that Pollon had no intention of deceiving anyone, but that's still what he did whether he wanted to or not.

Sorry then. I saw people saying that seriously, so I mistook what you said as serious too.

There is usually (although not in every case) an implication when people say "deceive" that there is something dishonest going on, that there's a deliberate misrepresentation or lie.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Well Pollon did know about the promise and he still decided that he should be allowed a chance to get with Celiane in the next life anyway even though she didn't even notice him as anything more than a cute pet. It doesn't matter if he planned to deceive anyone, what matters is that's exactly what happened because of that wish he made despite knowing how much Apollonius and Celiane loved each other and wanted to always be together

I have to say, if Apollonius and Celiane's destiny/fated love can be disrupted solely by a dog wanting to meet one of them again, their destiny is pretty fragile...

If the Apollonius = Aquarion+Fudo+Rena theory is correct, by the time Apollo and Silvia had fallen in love, there wasn't any chance of Celiane and Apollonius getting together anyway. But if, say, there hadn't been a tragic ending, and Apollonius' reincarnation was some random guy who came along and proved undeniably who he was, I doubt that Silvia and Apollo would have chosen to break up for that reason. Apollonius and Celiane might always have wanted to be together, but the same doesn't have to go for their reincarnations.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

And while we're on the topic of trophies, Amata may still end up as one for Zessica, as we've seen that this show doesn't really care about convulted developments. The writing is in a corner with Zessica and Kagura: as things are right now, their characters are so singularly focused on their respective love interests that there are not many choices about how to handle them: they'll most likely either get killed off or get Amata/Mikono in one way or another. Neither is able to move on, Kagura would probably die before giving up on Mikono, and Zessica has already demonstrated that Amata has become her entire reason for being.

A Zessica/Amata end in the last few episodes would be shockingly bad writing (which does not necessarily preclude it happening...), but my suspicion is that it'll end with Zessica saying she'll try for Amata in 12,000 years, or end on the implication that she will or will have a good chance of getting him in 12,000 years.

In my opinion, what has been done with making Amata Zessica's entire reason to exist is the worst thing the writers have done in EVOL. I'd love for them to fix that, but it's so late now that I don't know if it can be done any more. But since - possibly - one of the themes of the series is that obsessive love is bad, they might be planning a last minute change for Zessica.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

In my opinion, what has been done with making Amata Zessica's entire reason to exist is the worst thing the writers have done in EVOL. I'd love for them to fix that, but it's so late now that I don't know if it can be done any more. But since - possibly - one of the themes of the series is that obsessive love is bad, they might be planning a last minute change for Zessica.

Well, seeing that they went out of their way to make sure viewers are very sorry for Zessica and are sympathetic towards her, I don't see a lot of chances for a last minute change... :/ They screwed her up so much, and apparently intentionally, that I really don't see how they could ever fix her.

[KleenexGhost]

@kuromitsu Yes, this series does blow romance out of proportion. Everything you said was true. Saving Mix has become Andy's primary motivation. I guess what I was trying to say was that Amata's world revolved around Mikono. That dream he had where he held her down was proof of obsession. Like I said, I agree with everything you just said and get what you're saying. I was just kinda giving examples. In this series, they kinda jump the border from romantic interest to obsession with multiple characters in a sloppy way.

[Destined_Fate]

The problem is that something prevented Apollonius from reincarnateing and if he's stuck as Aquarion, or broken into 3 parts, it explains his absence. He still loves his dog and wants to protect him even though his dog is totally trying to bang his girlfriend and he's powerless to smack some sense into Celiane or reveal the truth for whatever reason.

Yet the reincarnations of Apollo and Silvia should be any different? What gives them the right to get their cookies and cake while Apollonius and the EVOL cycle end up being screwed because the selfishness of a dog that got his wish but wasn't satisfied and wanted more.

If the entire theme is obsessive love is bad than that means Amata shouldn't get with Mikono either because he has been overly obsessive about Mikono and until his Kagura arguement he was obsessed with destiny being on his side because it means Mikono would "have" to come around for her "soulmate" eventually.

[KleenexGhost]

@GoldenLand & kuromitsu I get that they tried to develop her character from just being a tease to Amata to genuinely having feelings and make her sympathetic but they did a bad job to say the least. They pretty much made her the punching bag and plaything of the series. All I'm asking for now is that she just live through the endgame and at least be happy.

She doesn't have to end up with Amata to be happy.

[Destined_Fate]

With her current character state there's no way she will be happy if she can't be with Amata. She tried giving him up and look how that turned out. The only happy end for her is getting with Amata, unlikely, or dying so she doesn't have to suffer anymore and maybe get in a cycle with Amata and no more Mykage or fate interfering. That's assuming that Mykage doesn't drag her soul down with him and she's forced to sacrifice her entire existence for Amata only for him to ignore her sacrifice the moment Mikono shows up.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

With her current character state there's no way she will be happy if she can't be with Amata. She tried giving him up and look how that turned out. The only happy end for her is getting with Amata, unlikely, or dying so she doesn't have to suffer anymore and maybe get in a cycle with Amata and no more Mykage or fate interfering. That's assuming that Mykage doesn't drag her soul down with him and she's forced to sacrifice her entire existence for Amata only for him to ignore her sacrifice the moment Mikono shows up.

The way the series is going is that outcome is very probable. They've been treating her like crap since for the longest now.

All I can see for this series to end appropriately would be a bittersweet ending. A happy ending for all the main characters involved wouldn't make sense.

They're gonna probably go for the Amata-Kagura merge ending as a cop-out.

[Destined_Fate]

They dug themselves into a corner with that. I would vastly prefer a bad ending where all the MCs are screwed, just like Genesis, only they don't try and make another 12,000 promise. Just let this hatchet be buried and never dug up ever again. They've done enough with EVOL, I can only fear how much more trolling and "surprise" reveals they would do to Genesis and EVOL in another sequel.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

The problem is that something prevented Apollonius from reincarnateing and if he's stuck as Aquarion, or broken into 3 parts, it explains his absence. He still loves his dog and wants to protect him even though his dog is totally trying to bang his girlfriend and he's powerless to smack some sense into Celiane or reveal the truth for whatever reason.

Yet the reincarnations of Apollo and Silvia should be any different? What gives them the right to get their cookies and cake while Apollonius and the EVOL cycle end up being screwed because the selfishness of a dog that got his wish but wasn't satisfied and wanted more.

They have every right to be happy together. Why should they be miserable and apart from the person they love? And why, if Apollonius loves Celiane, would he want her reincarnations to be alone forever? Why would he smack half of her reincarnation for falling in love with someone else? She doesn't owe him her love, and he's not entitled to it. Silvia is her own person. Neither she nor Celiane were Apollonius' property.

Besides, Apollonius might be fine with the way things turned out. He chose to be part of Aquarion, and if, for example, he is also Fudo and Rena, there's no evidence that either of the latter two are romantically interested in Celiane's reincarnations or that they couldn't have revealed the true reincarnations if they wanted to. Apollonius in Aquarion was able to talk to Apollo, and take over Apollo's body: if he wanted to tell everyone that badly, he it's possible he could have said "hey guys, this is my dog's reincarnation here, and I'm just borrowing his body for a moment".

We're forgetting Sirius too (like EVOL is!). He was just as much Celiane as Silvia. Was he also the eternal property of Apollonius? And if we're talking about people no longer having the right to be happy or choose who they love once they've loved once (even if it's a love from a previous life), then Toma is the most righteous of them all, owning Apollonius forever.

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

All I'm asking for now is that she just live through the endgame and at least be happy.

She doesn't have to end up with Amata to be happy.

Yes, that'd be the best ending. She's had a bad time in the main part of the series, but at least she might be happy at the end. ...If the writers allow it. It would suck if she got killed or the show decided to prove that she really can only be happy if she gets Amata. I don't want her to stay that weak.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

But Amata hasn't killed or harmed people casually to get Mikono, it didn't even occur to him to take her by force, he didn't sneak after her when she left Neo-Deava, and for that matter he didn't even try to restrain her. And were Mikono to reject him, I'm sure he'd be crushed, but from what we've seen of him he most probably wouldn't get a debilitating near-suicidal case of depression or go on a rampage.

Amata's obsessed (everyone is obsessed and/or stupid when it comes to love in this show). He stole a vector when they were already down one, just to chase after a "calling" with no basis, completely disregarding that Mikono had told him to stay and defend Neo-Daeva before leaving (so much for respecting her wishes). He left Zessica under rubble, which Mykage was oh so happy to use to torment Zessica. He doesn't need to be rejected to go suicidal, he's gone life-endangering stupid multiple times in this show (Ep. 15, 21, 22) whenever Mikono has been concerned and has needed saving time and again (be it from a car, from hitting the floor with his head, from getting crushed by a cherubim). Had 21/22 not occurred recently, I'd give it to you that he's actually been doing pretty well, sort of. Post 21/22? Not a chance.

This is the case with everyone. Andy messed up his confession? Tries to make amends? Nope, instead he just starts sinking into holes and then goes batshit insane to rescue MIX. Does MIX try to talk with him? Nope, gets turned into a guy. Yunoha and Jin? Three episodes? Three episodes, and now we never stop hearing about Jin-kun. Zessica? She's been on a roller-coaster from hell, destination unknown. Mikono? Wall flower.

The only couple that's any good is/was Cayenne and Shrade, and now Shrade is dead. They: talked, interacted frequently, could talk to each other about important subjects, expressed more than one or two emotions.

Kind of sad.

[KleenexGhost]

I would prefer them to just copy the ending of Genesis at this point. But have Amagura, Zen and Mykage sacrifice themselves and say something like "It's time to end this cycle and let time progress forward." Or something like that. An ending where Amata and Mikono end up together would just seem cheap.

@GoldenLand Yeah give her strength by showing independence.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by Vena

Amata's obsessed (everyone is obsessed and/or stupid when it comes to love in this show). He stole a vector when they were already down one, just to chase after a "calling" with no basis, completely disregarding that Mikono had told him to stay and defend Neo-Daeva before leaving (so much for respecting her wishes). He left Zessica under rubble, which Mykage was oh so happy to use to torment Zessica. He doesn't need to be rejected to go suicidal, he's gone life-endangering stupid multiple times in this show (Ep. 15, 21, 22) whenever Mikono has been concerned and has needed saving time and again (be it from a car, from hitting the floor with his head, from getting crushed by a cherubim). Had 21/22 not occurred recently, I'd give it to you that he's actually been doing pretty well, sort of. Post 21/22? Not a chance.

This is the case with everyone. Andy messed up his confession? Tries to make amends? Nope, instead he just starts sinking into holes and then goes batshit insane to rescue MIX. Does MIX try to talk with him? Nope, gets turned into a guy. Yunoha and Jin? Three episodes? Three episodes, and now we never stop hearing about Jin-kun. Zessica? She's been on a roller-coaster from hell, destination unknown. Mikono? Wall flower.

The only couple that's any good is/was Cayenne and Shrade, and now Shrade is dead. They: talked, interacted frequently, could talk to each other about important subjects, expressed more than one or two emotions.

Kind of sad.

At least Shrade died before they could ruin his character.