[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[kamuinoyume]

Lol. I actually have an argument for this:
So, ep 2 it is:
First point: Shannon is dead in ep 2. Battler can see right through her head. Going by your "George is the culprit" theory, George would have been the one to kill her. But going by ep 8th's Purple statement:

Spoiler for ep 8:

it is impossible for George to kill Shannon.

well, you see the problem here...

And, no, your motives make no sense to me whatsoever, because they are all based on the fact that George loves Shannon. Now, why would George, who has just proposed to Shannon, and said girl had just accepted his engagement, go on a killing spree? He clearly stated in ep 6 that he is not afraid to confront Eva about their relationship, so the whole "the family won't accept us" motive fails right there. As for Battler, it is stated in ep 7 (this very ep) that the tragedy would still happen regardless of whether Battler came to the island, or if Shannon existed at all on the island. Please try explaining that if you will.

[Klashikari]

This line has no impact for Beato's games, it holds only truth with Bern's little game in Ep8.
For all we know, it is possible for Piece George to kill Piece Shannon.

and for the love of the golden witch: do NOT mention spoilers from future episodes.

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

This line has no impact for Beato's games, it holds only truth with Bern's little game in Ep8.
For all we know, it is possible for Piece George to kill Piece Shannon.

and for the love of the golden witch: do NOT mention spoilers from future episodes.

Yes, I'll admit that I might have rushed with that purple statement, but then it would be even more improbable for George to be the culprit, because, if you remove Shannon from the equation (as killing her would imply that George doesn't care for her), that would leave George with no motive whatsoever to kill his family.

Sorry about the spoiler, I'll try to limit my arguments to the first 7 ep.

[AuraTwilight]

Please, that can be applied to every freaking character in the game! And only for the first twilight! Try reasoning George as the culprit for the second twilight of the first game! His alibi is solid.

Revenge killings.

Anyway, it's irrelevant. The culprit of the games doesn't mean anything whatsoever about the true culprit of Rokkenjima Prime, technically speaking.

[Jaden]

Well how about this...George finds out Shannon's true identity and that she has killed Jessica and Gohda, and possibly even killed the first twilight victims. Maybe even catches her redhanded. George goes apeshit, seizes her gun and shoots her in the head. Realising what he has done, he has no choice but to continue the ritual murders to maintain his alibi. (meaning he just stakes himself and Shannon) The bomb goes off, or maybe the servants set it off according to Beatrice's will or something.

[rogerpepitone]

Aura: The point was that, in Episode 2, Battler and George remain together continuously from a point when Jessica is confirmed alive to a point when she is dead.

[AuraTwilight]

Yea, and? It's 100% impossible for one person to do all murders across all four games, even when we cut out stuff that is obviously not done by the same culprit, like when Battler was shot by Eva and the like.

[Kirroha]

Will's explanations of all the closed rooms from Ep1-Ep4 are still confusing in some areas.

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Well how about this...George finds out Shannon's true identity and that she has killed Jessica and Gohda, and possibly even killed the first twilight victims. Maybe even catches her redhanded. George goes apeshit, seizes her gun and shoots her in the head. Realising what he has done, he has no choice but to continue the ritual murders to maintain his alibi. (meaning he just stakes himself and Shannon) The bomb goes off, or maybe the servants set it off according to Beatrice's will or something.

Again, why KILL her? He LOVES her! Didn't he say in ep 4 that he is willing to sacrifice his whole family for her? If she was the culprit (which she obviously isn't), it would be more plausible to think that he'd be an accomplice rather than kill her.

And, no, AuraTwilight, it's not irrelevant! because, even in the first 4 games, you can depict Rudolf and Kyrie as the killers if you look for clues hard enough.

And I'll agree with you on that Kirroha, Will's explanations don't make much sense for some of the twilights.

[AuraTwilight]

And, no, AuraTwilight, it's not irrelevant! because, even in the first 4 games, you can depict Rudolf and Kyrie as the killers if you look for clues hard enough.

Except for when their deaths are confirmed early in red, right? Lol, you can go ahead and tell me how you think Rudolf and Kyrie, or anyone, really, can commit every murder. Go on, try.

[KazePT]

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

Again, why KILL her? He LOVES her! Didn't he say in ep 4 that he is willing to sacrifice his whole family for her? If she was the culprit (which she obviously isn't), it would be more plausible to think that he'd be an accomplice rather than kill her.

And, no, AuraTwilight, it's not irrelevant! because, even in the first 4 games, you can depict Rudolf and Kyrie as the killers if you look for clues hard enough.

It could be explained if he felt like that she was still in love with Battler and went mad with rage, for example. If you add that to all the other issues that George has, a motive wouldn't be hard to find.

AuraTwilight, I think that is fun to theorize about the culprit of the games. If it is there, then is meant to be discovered...No? And it can give some clues about the true culprit of Rokkenjima Prime.

But now that I'm writing this, is it possible to have different murderers for each game? (Looking back to Higurashi). I think it was never stated that every game had the same culprit.

[AuraTwilight]

Indeed, it wasn't. That's my point.

[KazePT]

Oh! I thought that you were talking about the "culprit needing accomplices".
Than we have 4 games, and each can possibly have 4 different mastermind murderers... Like that it really doesn't matter, because the 4 games can be seen as a game of its own, so trying to connect them unless we have the certainty that we can connect it to Rokkenjima Prime is pointless in discovering the truth of what happened originally.

That's is kinda depressing.

[AuraTwilight]

What I'm saying is there can be a mastermind, but no single person can physically carry out every murder. So kamuinoyume's anti-George arguments don't hold water; when he's under Battler's watch he can have his accomplice do it.

[Jaden]

The fact that different games had different cuplrits/accomplices was in itself a clue. It points to that the mastermind is in possession of the gold, and can buy people off to do as s/he likes.

In episode 2 it's especially apparent that Rosa must be an accomplice. In episodes 1 and 2, some people (Hideyoshi in the shed?) are helping fake the deaths of others. In episode 3 you can see Yasu give out the pin code for the bank account, probably Eva's reward. Also the people calling Battler are telling lie after another.

None of Kinzo's children can be the cuplrit in every game, because they sometimes die or have solid alibis. So none of them is the mastermind, either. However all of them can be converted into Beatrice's pieces with the magic of gold. The servants can be converted even more easily, because they serve Beatrice. The grandchildren aren't so easily bought, but they might have a personal stake in some killings as well.

[KazePT]

What a mess.
I thought that you were "saying" that.
When I said "But now that I'm writing this, is it possible to have different murderers for each game? (Looking back to Higurashi). I think it was never stated that every game had the same culprit" I meant what I explained in my last post.

But either way you're right, of course that a culprit (mastermind) couldn't perform all the murders without accomplices, so "alibis" are easy to make.

Originally Posted by Jaden

The fact that different games had different cuplrits/accomplices was in itself a clue. It points to that the mastermind is in possession of the gold, and can buy people off to do as s/he likes.

In episode 2 it's especially apparent that Rosa must be an accomplice. In episodes 1 and 2, some people (Hideyoshi in the shed?) are helping fake the deaths of others. In episode 3 you can see Yasu give out the pin code for the bank account, probably Eva's reward. Also the people calling Battler are telling lie after another.

None of Kinzo's children can be the cuplrit in every game, because they sometimes die or have solid alibis. So none of them is the mastermind, either. However all of them can be converted into Beatrice's pieces with the magic of gold. The servants can be converted even more easily, because they serve Beatrice. The grandchildren aren't so easily bought, but they might have a personal stake in some killings as well.

If there really is a different mastermind for each game, then it's just a pain, because we could interpret like:

Anyone can write a tale about what happened in Rokkenjima, even without knowing the truth of what happened in Rokkenjima Prime, by simply knowing "the heart" like Hachijo said. And that "heart" could mean anything - it's not necessarily to "know the real culprit of Rokkenjima Prime" if the heart is, for example, knowing that Beatrice is not the real murderer and is covering for the real one with magic - and you can spin a tale with where the real mastermind is anyone in the family (finding motives is not hard).

Its exciting in one part, to think that there's a possibility that each game has a mistery of its own but on the other hand we can end up never knowing what really happened in the original Rokkenjima because there is not a real clue in the games (well, I haven't read the 8th episode, so we will have an answer to this).

[Jaden]

Ah, nah, I do actually believe Yasu is the mastermind in every game. And s/he's actually Kinzo's child...that was a slip by me

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Ah, nah, I do actually believe Yasu is the mastermind in every game. And s/he's actually Kinzo's child...that was a slip by me

S/he's probably the mastermind of the epitaph-solving game, but not the murders. Well, by that, s/he probably didn't carry out any murders but may have counted on them to do that.

At one point in EP2, it was stated that Beatrice's magic meant taking risks, and taking risks is part of no plan. So s/he may have intended the murders to occur, but started the game to take the gamble of whether or not the culprits who actually carried out the murder would kill anyone. Or something.

[Jaden]

That's very likely. Yasu only has to stage the first twilight and show a number of people the gold or let them find it themselves. Then shit will go on.

The first twilight was always laughed off by Will as "illusions to illusions" meaning nobody really dies in it. In ep2 you see the adults gathered in the chapel, accepting the deal to take part in the ceremony. Why would they do that? For money. So obviously, they are not really dead. The same can be assumed for the shed in episode 1, and the episode 3 first twilight is staged by the servants, so nobody even has to be bought. Episode 4 first twilight is a magic fest, and the people who supposedly fell into pitfalls call Battler and tell him lies. So they likely have the same kind of agreement as in the ep2 chapel.

The problems come after the first twilight in a situation where no one's still found the gold. There isn't reason enough for them to start killing each other, especially with ritualistic closed room murders. Also, the bomb always goes off even when nobody finds it. That's why I think Yasu does actually kill people in some cases. Otherwise things would not continue on. Besides, s/he has confessed to being guilty of mass murder, and even Willard accepted that confession.

You can evade naming a simple cuplrit and mastermind by saying things go different in each fragment, and that other characters can commit murder too, and Yasu isn't to blame for what s/he's become, but in the end if s/he was stopped, there would be no incident.

[AuraTwilight]

The problems come after the first twilight in a situation where no one's still found the gold. There isn't reason enough for them to start killing each other, especially with ritualistic closed room murders. Also, the bomb always goes off even when nobody finds it. That's why I think Yasu does actually kill people in some cases. Otherwise things would not continue on. Besides, s/he has confessed to being guilty of mass murder, and even Willard accepted that confession.

Who said the First Twilight are the only faked murders, or that Yasu has to be the one to trigger the bomb? Even if no one solves the Epitaph, there's three other people besides Yasu who knows about that VIP Room.

You can evade naming a simple cuplrit and mastermind by saying things go different in each fragment, and that other characters can commit murder too, and Yasu isn't to blame for what s/he's become, but in the end if s/he was stopped, there would be no incident.

Yea, but that's like saying that it's Kinzo's fault the murders happened. If Yasu didn't actually kill anyone, it's not really right to blame her for accidentally creating the atmosphere for someone else to start getting choppy-killy.