Macross Delta - Anime Spoilers, Speculation & Theories

[Thess]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Still don't see how Windermere was oppressed. They got a tech uplift gaining VF tech and they still have their knight tradition. Are they really complaining about music?

Um. They took away their sovereignty. That sounds pretty serious. It's written right there in the manga which, by the way, takes place 2 years before the war. What they are doing is similar to South American independence. Up to forcibly liberate zones against the will of their ruling class. This is what happened Peru which was with Spain and was doing counterrevolution in the XIX century, and had San Martin, first, and Bolivar, after, defeat their forces and force them to cut ties with the Spanish Empire. Liberating the states (or planets) that surrounded yours assures the independence because it eliminates the enemies bastions and bases there that will always cast a menace shadow over them. It's basic strategy.

Also both manga confirm that they aren't behind Var at all. It's spread galaxy wide (unlikely those space bugs got infected via apples) and their first actual attack was the ones we saw in the beginning of the show, huh. That Char clone and his group might appear later. I think it's fairly obvious Windermerians are the bait-and-switch antagonists that would later team up against the big bads. That's why they are humanized and fleshed out. We can see they were good people two years before the war. The manga even stated their "anger and sadness" is the basis of their fight. We don't know yet what happened to ignite that war but it was really bad. They weren't angry at this point. The show hints that king was Arad's good friend. So something must have happened.

The king is also convinced that they (the NUNs) used those dimensional nukes on them. I don't think he's lying either. Because of the runes flashing with his bitter feelings. Either humans messed up, or this third, big bad faction, that appears in the other manga is trying to turn the windermerians against the NUNs and the NUNS against the Windermerians, for, I don't know, var experiments. Without this, the Windermerians wouldn't have experimented the whole control the Var infected with song, IMO, which might be crucial for our mysterious shady group. You can see them in the manga. They aren't war crazy or into "liberation". Something changed that and upset their relationship in general.

It's up to Chaos, with Delta and Walkure, to find out what went wrong. Their objective isn't to win the war, it's to stop it from happening.

[Tak]

Then we have to dwell in detail as to what sovereignty was taken away. The Wind is not a parliamentary democracy, its a fedual monarchy. The NUN is completely lenient when it comes to planetary and colonial independence. This is stressed over and over again. The NUN does not install a new government upon contact with new races, and a war was actually fought so the NUN could be just that. If the Wind did lose sovereignty, it wouldn't have a king.

I think the Wind is perceiving a loss of sovereignty due to the loss of its protoculture ruins to various interests within the NUN, and the latter might have presented an impression that they weren't interested in sharing the results. Basically, its a less absolute colonial dynamic. Its an unequal treaty of sorts, which might lead to gradual loss of sovereignty, but not one ending in the loss of society, culture and existing government. Maybe.

When countries have their resources monopolized by outside influence, it could be perceived as a loss of sovereignty. Its understandable.

If Kawamori intends to compare Delta to the dynamics of Japanese modern history, then this goes both ways. The NUN here is behaving like industrialized & militarized Japan of the late 19th century, whereas the Wind is a shell shocked Japan dedicated to the ideals of rich country, strong military of the post Meiji restoration era.

Nobody ever said the Wind was behind Var, they just weaponized the phenomenon. But otherwise yes, classical Macross setup will always reveal actual big bad.

- Tak

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Tak

Then we have to dwell in detail as to what sovereignty was taken away. The Wind is not a parliamentary democracy, its a fedual monarchy. The NUN is completely lenient when it comes to planetary and colonial independence. This is stressed over and over again. The NUNs does not install a new government upon contact with new races, and a war was actually fought so the NUN could be just that.

It doesn't really matter that's not a democracy. It's their native system. I don't see angry peasants with their rulers. There is respect and awe. Even Freyja admired them before the war.

If they were completely lenient, there wouldn't be a war at all. But there was. Why didn't they leave them be if they told them to sod off, huhh? You're kind of siding with faceless people without a POV here: Windermerians and Chaos have POV, NUNs don't. Chaos aren't with the Nuns. In fact, Mirage dropped the NUNS because she couldn't deal with their bloodshed. Which I imagine will have flesh out when we she's developed.

They weren't lenient if they pissed off these people who were chilling and minding their business two years before the war.

Originally Posted by Tak

I think the Wind is perceiving a loss of sovereignty due to the loss of its protoculture ruins to various interests within the NUN, and the latter might have presented an impression that they weren't interested in sharing the results. Basically, its a less absolute colonial dynamic. Its an unequal treaty of sorts, which might lead to gradual loss of sovereignty, but not one ending in the loss of society, culture and existing government. Maybe.

- Tak

Well, economical mistreatment is what ignited all wars of independence in American continent. Later was dressed up with ideals and politics, but I don't think that's fully the case here.

We've a glimpse of Windermere two years before the war, from Keith's POV, and if they were upset, we would see this. While there is some kind of resentment, there's no hatred. Who knows what the Nuns (or this third faction masked as Nuns) did to really piss off the Windermerians and drive them to war. There's not even an inclination of war in their manga. Going by last episode, they do hint terrible torture and some shady stuff which made Roid step in and admonish his men for trying to "Be like the Nuns." So yeah, something really really happened to ignite this kind of hatred.

Let's wait for the manga to catch up to have a catalyst. Let's remember their king was friends with people of Chaos. What happened to that man who was Arad's buddy to become such human hater? It seems more personal than just trade treatment.

And as I said, let's keep an eye on that group who wants to control the var and are doing experiments before the Windermerians even capitalized it. Because they would surely find convenient that the race that coincidentally can control Varred people had a reason to fight just when they needed to run their experiments.

Mind, I'm not saying Windermerians are right. I'm saying something provoked them to act like this. NUNS aren't the good guys either. Chaos is. Chaos is against war. However, I'm willing to give the NUNS a pass because we have a mysterious third faction behind the scenes in the prequel already. I'm betting they are manipulating NUNS and Windermerians.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Thess

It doesn't really matter that's not a democracy. It's their native system. I don't see angry peasants with their rulers. There is respect and awe. Even Freyja admired them before the war.

Reread my post. They remain a monarchy precisely because the NUN couldn't care less what type of government they have.

If they were completely lenient, there wouldn't be a war at all. But there was. Why didn't they leave them be if they told them to sod off, huhh? You're kind of siding with faceless people without a POV here: Windermerians and Chaos have POV, NUNs don't. Chaos aren't with the Nuns.

Thus my expectations of more depth revealing as to what made Wind decide war in the first place. My speculations had always been something to do with the ruins, not because NUN wanted to somehow dramatically change the Wind.

In fact, Mirage dropped the NUNS because she couldn't deal with their bloodshed. Which I imagine will have flesh out when we she's developed.

Bloodshed in regards to? She could not have been involved with Wind's war for independence.

- Tak

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Tak

Reread my post. They remain a monarchy precisely because the NUN couldn't care less what type if government they have.

Leaving the old rulers and system untouched as puppet government isn't an uncommon tactic. Spanish Empire tried to do the same with Incas and Aztecs. The manga stated that they lost their sovereignty.

Originally Posted by Tak

Thus my expectations of more depth revealing as to what made Wind decide war in the first place. My speculations had always been something to do with the ruins, not because NUN wanted to somehow dramatically change the Wind.

Hmm. I don't know. Only Roid seems to care about them. The rest is boiling in anger in revenge for a serious affront. What mattered is that we know this wasn't like this two years before the war began. Keith is kind of chill and relaxed, and he wants to protect his brother openly. He's completely different to this proud, cold person we know in the show. Cassim (?) is fighting because he lost everything in the war. Do you see Bogue caring about the ruins?

Originally Posted by Tak

Bloodshed in regards to? She could not have been involved with Wind's war for independence.

- Tak

Mirage would have been 11 years old when that war took place. No, she mentioned she killed humans in her service of the Nuns. She was evasive about it, but doesn't look it was a good experience for her. So she quit and later was recruited by CHAOS.

Either way, we have implicit that the main members of the cast don't really like NUNS very much. Even so, I'm still betting the third faction is the source of the conflict because Windermerians look like have the key to control the var infected races which seemed to be what they were experimenting with. And they wouldn't have resorted on that if wasn't for their grudge and conflict. They could have given them a reason to be angry enough to do this to not drop the conflict after the independence was 'gained'. Because if their goal is reached, then they don't have a reason to continue to battle. For example: Imagine someone nukes your place, kills your family and destroys your life, and then claims you did it to yourself to the rest of the galaxy? Bet you'll be pissed too. I'm sure the King and the Windermerians didn't use those dimensional weapons on themselves, but the Nuns also didn't; these guys did it and let those two sides blame each other. Furthermore, that would make Windmerians not only unable to forgive but scared they would be nuked again enough to go on a liberation spread to assure to cut NUN control of neighboring planets. You cannot dismiss something like that, it's a reminder they could easily crush you and the freedom you have is fickle.

[Tak]

I can also claim a loss of sovergninty if my neighbor's dog took a crap on my lawn. Except nobody will ever buy that claim seriously.

The Manga is echoing Wind's perspective, and by now an obvious plot device. But we do not know what exactly is lost. They are claming in the anime that they are actually 'freeing' the people of the system and regaining their 'sovergninty' except nobody but them feel that way.

Roid claims a loss of sovergninty.
Aerial Knights claim a loss of sovergninty.
Heinz claims a loss of sovergninty.

Then they blew themsleves up and lie to the public about it.

The entire sector goes huh? and the audiences have no idea except making guesswork. So until I get something I can be convinced, I am calling the claims BS.

- - - - -

Mirage joined Chaos because she admired her aunt Mylene greatly and developed an interest in the Walkure, so when Arad scouted her out, the rest is history.

And as far as killing goes, Chaos kill allies, brainwashed as they may be. Chaos has no qualm about killing, and fighting full scale wars either. Lets also not kid ourselves, its the military, you are trained to kill.

You just don't talk about it.

- Tak

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Tak

I can also claim a loss of sovergninty if my neighbor's dog took a crap on my lawn. Except nobody will ever buy that claim seriously.

The neutral text stated it. Not Roid or Heinz. You have no reason to believe the NUNS, who are half of the time portrayed as incompetent or corrupted in the franchise, anyway. I think this time is an incompetent case, though. Since we have a Char.

Originally Posted by Tak

Mirage joined Chaos because she admired her aunt Mylene greatly and developed an interest in the Walkure, so when Arad scouted her out, the rest is history.

And as far as killing goes, Chaos kill allies, brainwashed as they may be. Chaos has no qualm about killing, and fighting full scale wars either.

- Tak

Which puts in perspective Mirage didn't want to remain with the NUNs, right? She wasn't comfortable there and when the subject was brought up, she looked uneasy.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Thess

Which puts in perspective Mirage didn't want to remain with the NUNs, right? She wasn't comfortable there and when the subject was brought up, she looked uneasy.

Because joining the NUNs was not her goal in the first place. Never mind that she is often compared to her omgfamousawesomehero grandparents all the time as she recalled in episode 7 (who really should drop by and say hello btw). But otherwise this has little to do with killing, because Chaos kills a lot. In fact, Chaos racked up more kills than the NUNs in the entire anime so far.

Besides, being a blockhead, she probably thought she should join the NUNs, make herself noted so she could attact the attention of Chaos and Walkure. No wonder, when Hayate was selected to be an additional pilot, she went ballistic.

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Thess

Um. They took away their sovereignty. That sounds pretty serious. It's written right there in the manga which, by the way, takes place 2 years before the war. What they are doing is similar to South American independence.

Yeah, it's not. South America's revolutions were mainly led by Criollos, meaning direct descendants of the Spanish conquistadores who, because they were born in South America, had less rights than their "pure Spanish" brethren. That doesn't correspond to the Windbags divine mandate philosophy.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Tak

I can also claim a loss of sovergninty if my neighbor's dog took a crap on my lawn. Except nobody will ever buy that claim seriously.

But the reason no one will buy that claim is because it doesn't fit any of the definitions of (state) sovereignty.

Depending on what actually happened, however, a violation of sovereignty may be a legitimate claim for Windermere. In fact, given the history of 'external powers coming in to improve the lives and update the world views of less developed people' in our own world, I'm inclined to believe that it is. The real questions are: what exactly happened, and was it serious enough to justify the Windermerean response?

[Tak]

Yeah, I know that Karice. But after eight episodes, I only see the Wind scream independence, unequal treaty and sovereignty, and not being told what they are except witnessing one contiunous douchebaggary after another. Nevermind the whole thing is not helped by their superiority complex. So when the big reveal comes (if it does), I don't want something like oh, we went to war because how dare they flood our planet with Fuji apples.

Yeah, because that would be akin to my neighbor's dog taking a crap on my lawn and I decided to retaliate by shooting the F-ing bastard.

So echoing my earlier post: I better get something convincing, or the whole thing is BS.

And the Wind already lost plenty of credibility for their hostile takeovers.

- Tak

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Yeah, it's not. South America's revolutions were mainly led by Criollos, meaning direct descendants of the Spanish conquistadores who, because they were born in South America, had less rights than their "pure Spanish" brethren. That doesn't correspond to the Windbags divine mandate philosophy.

Sure, that was the interpretation... many decades ago. You're kind of... outdated with this. There was discomfort after the Bourbon Reforms, but the interest was all $$$ I assure you except in a very very small "intellectual" minority. They wanted free trade because of their deal with the British Empire.

(And by the way, the groups weren't as homogenous as you think, there were peninsular spardians supporting the revolutions and criollos trying to destroy it in every single place ).

Furthermore, not every country wanted that. As I said, as example, Peru was invaded by San Martin's and Bolivar's forces to be 'liberated', and they both tried to put up their own system which wasn't very popular. They were forced to be 'freed'. The "criollos" there in the vast majority sided with the Spanish Empire and were organizing their counter-revolution. Not just between what you know as countries today, but within the same regions. My province, for example, was pro-hispanic because the economic system favored them while the port-cities crushed their resistance to the interests of the cost-areas oligarchies. If you think that the independence was attained by the cooperation of homogenous groups instead of imposition from the minority, you'll be wrong. There were decades and decades of civil war within some countries as proof of their idea of unity is an illusion.

It's all about changing the economic center to benefit them. This "we wanted to be freed" is all a rhetoric built to make their claim legitimate and palatable. Don't confused lectures of why independence happened to what actual interests moved these groups to take these actions, in context. I suggest reading Xavier Guerra who makes a comprehensive study about the construction of nation and people (as pueblo) to see how this has evolved.

Anyway, I think the Windermerians are more like the heroic nature of the independent movements of ideals and politics, plus feel wronged by the NUNs actions (or who they believe was the NUNs). None of the knights we saw looked remotely interested in economics or trade. Yes, they do crush and invade regions that support the empire to ensure the independence. This happened TOO within the areas of the same country. And other countries when the American countries fought their independence war vs the Spanish Empire. Whether the locals liked it or not, they imposed one goal. Later the governments made sure to build heroic discourses about freedom and such. They built their history of nations about struggling to be defined which is a complete lie because when the revolutions took place the concept of nations, as we know today, was unknown.

Originally Posted by Tak

Because joining the NUNs was not her goal in the first place. Never mind that she is often compared to her omgfamousawesomehero grandparents all the time as she recalled in episode 7 (who really should drop by and say hello btw). But otherwise this has little to do with killing, because Chaos kills a lot. In fact, Chaos racked up more kills than the NUNs in the entire anime so far.

Besides, being a blockhead, she probably thought she should join the NUNs, make herself noted so she could attact the attention of Chaos and Walkure. No wonder, when Hayate was selected to be an additional pilot, she went ballistic.

- Tak

That wasn't my impression at all. We know how Mirage was recruited and she wasn't trying to 'be contacted using the Nuns'. Even if she was interested in Walkure.

I'm more inclined believing a group of people who has a manga which portrays them as a sympathetic and fleshed out characters than a faceless force that one of the main characters quit because she couldn't stand the way they do things, apparently. Just think about it. Doesn't mean Windermerians aren't doing wrong actions, but trying to whitewash or dismiss what the NUNS could be doing feels narrow-minded specially when Roid pretty much scolds his people for doing the same as the NUNS.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Tak

Yeah, I know that Karice. But after eight episodes, I only see the Wind scream independence, unequal treaty and sovereignty, and not being told what they are except witnessing one contiunous douchebaggary after another. Nevermind the whole thing is not helped by their superiority complex. So when the big reveal comes (if it does), I don't want something like oh, we went to war because how dare they flood our planet with Fuji apples.

Yeah, because that would be akin to my neighbor's dog taking a crap on my lawn and I decided to retaliate by shooting the F-ing bastard.

So echoing my earlier post: I better get something convincing, or the whole thing is BS.

And the Wind already lost plenty of credibility for their hostile takeovers.

- Tak

Really? Because whether or not the show eventually gets to explaining exactly what happened, to me, your analogy really cheapens the issue to a level that is pretty rude to any nation that's been colonised or had it sovereignty violated in any way.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by karice67

Really? Because whether or not the show eventually gets to explaining exactly what happened, to me, your analogy really cheapens the issue to a level that is pretty rude to any nation that's been colonised or had it sovereignty violated in any way.

Except going by the Galaxy Treaty it is illegal to invade other planets with sentient life. Emigrants made a treaty with the Windermereans which they also signed.

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...elineTF02A.php

Related Matter: The Galaxy Treaty
The Galaxy Treaty was drawn up after the conclusion of the First Interstellar War, and such clauses as the prohibition of invading planets where intelligent life exists were noted in the treaty, which was concluded between the Emigrant Planets and Emigrant Fleets. Also, as disregarding an SOS from another fleet was a violation of of the Galactic Treaty, it has strong aspects of humanity (including extraterrestrial life) and respect for life.

Caption: If the Vajra are intelligent life, than the invasion of the Vajra Homeworld was a violation of the treaty.

Caption: Disregarding the SOS signal was also a violation. The agreement on the aspect of humanity seems to have been performed irregardless of it being peace time or war time.

The royals and knights complaints boil down to MUH Sky. Which I take Windermere can't expand into the cluster as the NUN already took the good planets. Note they see themselves as the true heirs of the Protoculture not Terrans.

With Ragna they are a joint government like with what happened with Terrans and Zentradi. Ragnans get the vote as much as everybody else probably outnumbering emigrants.

Voldor don't have emigrants it seems but NUNS have bases contributing to the local economy and Voldorians make up much of the local NUNS.

What did the Windermereans do? Give Voldorians a bad deal. Behave and we won't have to get your own people kill you and local produce is prohibited instead take these infected apples exported from our planet. Oh those ruins which you believe as holy sites its ours now.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Except going by the Galaxy Treaty it is illegal to invade other planets with sentient life.

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...elineTF02A.php

That's stuff from Frontier. You don't know if it's relevant in the context of Delta. Besides, even if such a treaty existed, it doesn't mean the particular fleet that landed on Windermere would necessarily abide to it.

I think we should wait until Delta reveals its own cards before jumping to conclusions about NUN's actions on Windermere.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by karice67

Really? Because whether or not the show eventually gets to explaining exactly what happened, to me, your analogy really cheapens the issue to a level that is pretty rude to any nation that's been colonised or had it sovereignty violated in any way.

I... ya know what, I can't joke with you.

Anyway look, this is not real life. This is the Wind, a nation consisting of kids at this moment looking as if they are throwing a fit. This perception might change, but at the moment, their actions aren't helping.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's stuff from Frontier. You don't know if it's relevant in the context of Delta.

FYI, that treaty existed since the end to the First Space War.

- Tak

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Tak

FYI, that treaty existed since the end to the First Space War.

My point stands. We don't know how that plays out in the context of Delta, if it does at all.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's stuff from Frontier. You don't know if it's relevant in the context of Delta. Besides, even if such a treaty existed, it doesn't mean the particular fleet that landed on Windermere would necessarily abide to it.

Let's wait until Delta reveals its own cards.

Correction it is part of the official setting as it is in Macross Chronicle.

The Galaxy Treaty also restricts the use of Reaction Weapons and Dimension Weapons. Which Mirage confirms on the previous episode.
http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...ionWeapons.php

The Operation And Restrictions Of Dimension Weapons
Its thought that the first combat that used an especially large quantity of MDE Dimension Weapons was the large-scale battle of 2059 between the Macross Frontier Fleet and the Vajra (the Macross Galaxy Fleet). In this battle, the tremendous pressure of Dimension Weapons was displayed, as the VF squadrons of the New Unified Forces, who escorted the fleet, and the civilian military provider S.M.S. were equipped with MDE - in order to oppose the Vajra, who had acquired a resistance to reaction weapons -, and used them to crush the Vajra.
Due to their power, usage restrictions similar to those for reaction weapons were established for Dimension Weapons - especially DE and MDE -, by the New Unified Government. Also, severe restrictions were imposed on the harvesting, distribution, and possession of fold quartz, which was indispensable for the production of Dimension Weapons.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Correction it is part of the official setting as it is in Macross Chronicle.

Again, my point stands. At this point we don't know if that's relevant in the context of Delta or how it plays out if it is.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Again, my point stands. At this point we don't know if that's relevant in the context of Delta or how it plays out if it is.

How? Have you given any proof to your point? Mirage already said Dimension Weapons are banned under treaty.