(L) Shoukoku no Altair

[MgMaster]

I'm starting to like this more than Arslan Senki tbh and the main reason's the difference between MCs. Whereas Arslan was a kind king that yea, had way more qualified help for war,fighting,spying and it was best to let them do it other than try to do it himself, that did get rather annoying at times,esp with everyone of his allies kinda kissing his ass all the time. Mahamut's struggles and his more direct approach to them is somewhat more spicy,curios to see how he develops throughout the series.

Anyway I'm convinced enough for now, this one's a keeper.

[Kanon]

I think the council's decision to strip Mahmut of his rank is a good one. He definitely has high potential, but he just wasn't quite ready for such a high ranking position yet. He thinks with his heart first, and with his head only after. A leader needs to be able to look at a situation calmly. Of course, I'm not saying he should become completely heartless, but he needs to find the right balance between emotion and reason.

[iko_uwais]

The pacing's gotten better overall and I'm starting to enjoy it more. Next episode is Suleyman, which mean they're skipping where Mahmut meet Shara and the rest of her troupe or maybe they're keeping it for later, hope it's the latter. Can't wait for the scene Mahmut meet Suleyman, it was one of my favorite scene from the early parts of the manga.

[Wandering Soul]

So the first three episodes were basically a prologue to show Mahmut's fall from Grace and it looks like the series going forward will be about him maturing into someone that can balance out the responsibilities of being a Pasha with his emotions as a person.

[Haak]

I think it's been okay so far. Nothing particularly offensive but nothing particularly impressive either. How exactly Mahmut managed to get all those eagles to pull that massive tent clean off, I have no idea though I doubt we're meant to think too hard about it, and I absolutely laughed my arse off when the guy with the fire accidentally set him himself on fire.

I do wish the pacing wasn't so fast and the show could just slow down a little to expand upon on the "why" of things. If at any point it explained what this Araba tribe were and their history with Turkiye then I must have missed it. I didn't even catch what halted the Purple Pasha in his tracks when he reached the city.

Mahmut got shafted pretty hard when he lost his position and again, I would've liked the story to slow down a bit and explain the why of it in more detail. We never hear an "official" reason from the big hat guy but from my understanding it seems the reason he lost it was because he was completely oblivious to the deeper political machinations of the situation but wasn't Mahmut the only one in the first episode perceptive enough to not only understand the deeper politics at play but also solve them effectively? And ultimately what does it even matter when he's seemingly capable of commanding an army of eagles to do whatever the fuck he wants?

[iko_uwais]

Originally Posted by Haak

And ultimately what does it even matter when he's seemingly capable of commanding an army of eagles to do whatever the fuck he wants?

This is one of the stupidest comment i've ever heard.
For the eagles carrying the tent:
those are wild eagles, and they could carry really heavy stuff.
In Shara’s flashback , Mahmut was setting up the minced shrimp meat on tent to lure the wild pack.
Thats why eagles swarmed and carried the tent, they thought it was a “good catch”.
And no, mahmut can't control them to do what he wants when he wants them, he can only manipulate them. And even the Tughril clan's way of manipulating the eagle's behavior has weakness in it, as will be shown in the next episode. And do you really think this is some lower tier shonen where everything can be solved by the protagonist special ability? Really can't wait for the civil war arc where Mahmut's tactical genius truly shines, so everyone can shut up about the eagles.

Just like Khalil CLEARLY said in the episode, Mahmut was demoted because while he was a good person for deciding to help ibrahim, it doesn't make him a good pasha. Pasha, which is the equivalent of a General, must think about the nation as a whole, not just one person. That's what a good statesman does. Mahmut act thinking as Ibrahim's friend instead of Turkiye's pasha and disregard order from his superior, which is shit that could get you demoted or even stripped of your position in real life, as there are something called CHAINS OF COMMAND in every nation. Mahmut was lucky his plan succeeded as it could have gone south anytime, just like Zaganos himself mentioned at the end of the episode.

It's really hard to take any of your comments seriously, considering it's very clear you don't even bother to pay attention to any of the plot points

[mnedel]

Originally Posted by iko_uwais

This is one of the stupidest comment i've ever heard.
For the eagles carrying the tent:
those are wild eagles, and they could carry really heavy stuff.
In Shara’s flashback , Mahmut was setting up the minced shrimp meat on tent to lure the wild pack.
Thats why eagles swarmed and carried the tent, they thought it was a “good catch”.
And no, mahmut can't control them to do what he wants when he wants them, he can only manipulate them. And even the Tughril clan's way of manipulating the eagle's behavior has weakness in it, as will be shown in the next episode. And do you really think this is some lower tier shonen where everything can be solved by the protagonist special ability? Really can't wait for the civil war arc where Mahmut's tactical genius truly shines, so everyone can shut up about the eagles.

There is nothing wrong with Haak’s comment. I had the same thoughts. The eagle parts are pure fantasy in an otherwise realistic historical show. This is a good series and I am looking forward to watching it but the eagles scene is one of those when I roll my eyes and just don’t think about it. No wild eagle would ever behave that way. First eagles hunt by sight; they don’t have good sense of smell. Even if they could smell the bait, the tent looks nothing like food, they would not lift it. Second, eagles don’t live in flocks so to get that many eagles he would have to attract every bird in 100km radius. And they are territorial and usually fight each other for food. They would never cooperate like that and in the first episode Mahmut calls them during the night. Eagles have bad eyesight at night so they don't fly at night. I am a biologist so that’s how i know this stuff. Honestly, all these eagle scenes feel stupid and pointless to me. I guess they are meant to make the character look cool but to me he would be much cooler if he solved problems with personal skill and not magical eagles. If what you say is correct and there will be more of Mahmut’s skills shown in the future and less eagle ex machina then that is great. The series as a whole is still very good.

[kuromitsu]

FWIW the eagles' involvement pretty much disappears from the story quite early. If I remember correctly the next miniarc is one of the last times any eagle does anything plot important instead of just soaring dramatically or looking cool. Other than that there's one... or maybe two such instances, the second is probably late enough that the anime won't cover it.

[Haak]

So I guess I've found the perfect solution to this shows pacing problem: Piss off a manga reader so they tell you everything you missed. XP

Originally Posted by iko_uwais

T
Just like Khalil CLEARLY said in the episode, Mahmut was demoted because while he was a good person for deciding to help ibrahim, it doesn't make him a good pasha. Pasha, which is the equivalent of a General, must think about the nation as a whole, not just one person. That's what a good statesman does. Mahmut act thinking as Ibrahim's friend instead of Turkiye's pasha and disregard order from his superior, which is shit that could get you demoted or even stripped of your position in real life, as there are something called CHAINS OF COMMAND in every nation. Mahmut was lucky his plan succeeded as it could have gone south anytime, just like Zaganos himself mentioned at the end of the episode.

Funnily enough, I was actually thinking at the time that it would make sense if Mahmut was disobeying orders, but I never heard them specifically say that and it was my understanding that Mahmut had autonomy despite the purple dude saying it was his beef.

And you know I was joking about the eagles right? As disappointed as I am that they used the same gambit twice in a row, I'm not actually all that bothered and I don't expect it to be recurring either. Like I said, I'm not thinking too hard about it. And for what its worth, I don't recall any flashback with Shara and using minced shrimp meat: Just her commenting on the smell of the tent.

[iko_uwais]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

FWIW the eagles' involvement pretty much disappears from the story quite early. If I remember correctly the next miniarc is one of the last times any eagle does anything plot important instead of just soaring dramatically or looking cool. Other than that there's one... or maybe two such instances, the second is probably late enough that the anime won't cover it.

Indeed, the eagles' appearance become reduced after phoenicia IIRC. I think in the last few volumes, there was only one or maybe two appearance of Iskander where Mahmut uses him in his tactics. Even then, he uses Iskander in tandem with other methods.

[Guardian Enzo]

FWIW, I thought the eagles flying off with the tent thing was a pretty silly resolution too (shrimp or no shrimp). For a series that seems to be trying to steer pretty close to realism it wouldn't be good if that sort of thing happened too often.

In the end is it a big deal? Not for me. Just a mild annoyance that took me out of the moment.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

I agree with Haak & Guardian Enzo. I think the eagles and how they work in this episode of Altair is preposterously unrealistic. Mnedel already said the reasons above. Say what you want about Arslan Senki, but its depiction of (tamed) hawk/falcon/kestrel is a lot better (than the wild eagles' portrayal here) which is really good for a story that has space-bending black magicians in it. That’s because Arslan’s author has done a thorough research, not just the history but also the customs and other details.

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Anyway, Altair's story is interesting enough so far, so I guess I'll follow it when I have the time.

Originally Posted by iko_uwais

This is one of the stupidest comment i've ever heard.
For the eagles carrying the tent:
those are wild eagles, and they could carry really heavy stuff.
In Shara’s flashback , Mahmut was setting up the minced shrimp meat on tent to lure the wild pack.
Thats why eagles swarmed and carried the tent, they thought it was a “good catch”.
And no, mahmut can't control them to do what he wants when he wants them, he can only manipulate them. And even the Tughril clan's way of manipulating the eagle's behavior has weakness in it, as will be shown in the next episode. And do you really think this is some lower tier shonen where everything can be solved by the protagonist special ability? Really can't wait for the civil war arc where Mahmut's tactical genius truly shines, so everyone can shut up about the eagles.

insulting Haak just because he pointed something ridiculous in the show is not cool, man. And those eagles' behavior is indeed ridiculous. There's no way around that.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I agree with Haak & Guardian Enzo. I think the eagles and how they work in this episode of Altair is preposterously unrealistic. Mnedel already said the reasons above. Say what you want about Arslan Senki, but its depiction of (tamed) hawk/falcon/kestrel is a lot better (than the wild eagles' portrayal here) which is really good for a story that has space-bending black magicians in it. That’s because Arslan’s author has done a thorough research, not just the history but also the customs and other details.

And here's where I roll my eyes, because Altair has quite a lot of research on customs and "other details" - just because you either don't recognize them or don't think they're important doesn't mean they're not there. (Also there's been 3 episodes.)

The eagles (not wild, btw) might be unrealistic, but again they'll be mostly irrelevant very shortly, only there as a reminder of Mahmut's heritage. I think the whole aspect is just there because the original (perhaps editorial) concept was probably trying to include more stereotypical shounen-y adventure elements to be a better fit for Sirius' target demographics. But these were discarded very early in the manga, specifically because they don't mesh well with the setting and the tone. (It's not just the eagles, there are other elements that I'm not getting into due to potential spoilers.)

(And I really wish people would stop with the Arslan comparisons... at least compare it to the novels, not what is essentially a shounen adventure romp.)

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

And here's where I roll my eyes, because Altair has quite a lot of research on customs and "other details" - just because you either don't recognize them or don't think they're important doesn't mean they're not there. (Also there's been 3 episodes.)

Oh, I'm not accusing Altair's author for not researching enough, but he clearly goofed on the portrayal of the eagles here compared to what Arslan's author did. That's the cold hard fact.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

The eagles (not wild, btw) might be unrealistic, but again they'll be mostly irrelevant very shortly, only there as a reminder of Mahmut's heritage.

Iko Uwais above (who is a manga reader from the looks of it) said that those are wild eagles. So now we have conflicting explanations from two manga-readers. Whom should I trust? Not that it matters. The eagles' portrayal are still ridiculous whether they're wild or tamed.

And just because those ridiculous eagles won't be relevant soon, doesn't mean we can't address them when it was shown this episode. In fact, if that's the case, you don't need to be so defensive just because we pointed an obvious flaw that soon will be irrelevant .

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

(And I really wish people would stop with the Arslan comparisons... at least compare it to the novels, not what is essentially a shounen adventure romp.)

In this case, I compare them because both portrayed the relationship between certain eagles/hawks and men. Also, you do know that 60-70% of what you've seen in Arslan Senki anime (season 1) is directly adapted from the novel, right? I know coz I've read those parts of the novel.

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[iko_uwais]

I really don't know why the director love changing stuff from the manga. i respect the guy for his past works, but he's not really doing a good job this time. I dislike how he changes the dialogue, the dialogye in the manga feels more natural. Here, it sounds really pretentious sometimes. Also, suleyman is more jovial and easygoing in the manga. Somehow, i got the feeling the director is trying to make it a more "serious" series, which IMO doesn't really work most of the time

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by iko_uwais

I really don't know why the director love changing stuff from the manga. i respect the guy for his past works, but he's not really doing a good job this time. I dislike how he changes the dialogue, the dialogye in the manga feels more natural. Here, it sounds really pretentious sometimes. Also, suleyman is more jovial and easygoing in the manga. Somehow, i got the feeling the director is trying to make it a more "serious" series, which IMO doesn't really work most of the time

The work of Kazuhiro Furuhashi as a director really depends on the script/writer. He'll do a good job if the script is good. Just like how fluctuative his directing works in Rurouni Kenshin series & OVA are. In RK Tsuiokuhen OVA he did a great job coz the script (by Masashi Sogo) is strong but in RK Seisouhen OVA, the end result is rather so-so since the script (by Reiko Yoshida) is not as strong as before. The fluctuation is even more noticeable if you watch RK series since he has to juggle with a number of different writers with varied quality in between arcs or even episodes. His work in Hunter x Hunter TV (1999) was solid all around (even the fillers) coz he was able to work well with the script by Nobuaki Kishima.

Also, your complaint is that this Altair anime is too serious? So, is the manga more lighthearted or something?

[kuromitsu]

So finally the main story arc (for this cour, anyway) is starting, but along with iko uwais above I don't really get the deal with changing the dialogue for no apparent reason, and for none the better. I would understand if it was due to trimming and streamlining, but that's not what's happening most of the time... It's pretty weird, especially since the changed dialogue is in no way better than the original, and it doesn't always make sense in larger context.

It seems like the show is trying for a "grandiose epic" style, which is... not quite what Altair the manga is going for? It's not that the manga is lighthearted (although in this episode some lighthearted scenes were changed to serious) but it's a lot more dry than the anime, and kind of more down to earth. The anime seems to be going out of its way to be as dramatic as possible, like a taiga drama. And I'm not sure how well this approach is going to work in the long run, with characters like Kyros, Abiriga, Luciano, Leledric or Orhan... none of whom lend themselves well to such a relentlessly dramatic style, I think. Not to mention it might very well cheapen the actual drama when it happens.

The overwrought music doesn't help. The composer seems to have that "LISTEN TO MY SONG!!!" attitude where instead of supporting the scenes the music seems to be trying to get in the focus, being cheesy and distracting.

(And funny that the Kenshin OVAs have been brought up, because one of my huge issues with them is that they're just so overwhelmingly ~dramatic~ and ~tragic~ that they have none of the out the human element left, even though that's what made the story so effective in the manga. It's like they said "this story could have been good if only everyone was a one-note angst machine... time to do something about that!")

And off-topic so I won't get into this any further...

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Also, you do know that 60-70% of what you've seen in Arslan Senki anime (season 1) is directly adapted from the novel, right? I know coz I've read those parts of the novel.

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You're probably not aware of this...

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[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

(And funny that the Kenshin OVAs have been brought up, because one of my huge issues with them is that they're just so overwhelmingly ~dramatic~ and ~tragic~ that they have none of the out the human element left, even though that's what made the story so effective in the manga. It's like they said "this story could have been good if only everyone was a one-note angst machine... time to do something about that!")

Just because it’s so dramatic & tragic doesn’t mean it’s not human or humane. There's a lot more tragic events IRL that's worse than what's depicted in Tsuiokuhen. Tomoe's unexpressed internal struggle alone is quite subtle just like how IRL Japanese people (of that era) acted in her situation.

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Furuhashi & Sogo chose the realistic approach and it was executed well, so I thank them for that. Who knows, maybe they'll remake that arc in a more shonen-y way like in the manga just like you wanted.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

You're probably not aware of this...

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I’ve read those parts, so yes, I’m aware of what you're talking about:

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[iko_uwais]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

The work of Kazuhiro Furuhashi as a director really depends on the script/writer. He'll do a good job if the script is good. Just like how fluctuative his directing works in Rurouni Kenshin series & OVA are. In RK Tsuiokuhen OVA he did a great job coz the script (by Masashi Sogo) is strong but in RK Seisouhen OVA, the end result is rather so-so since the script (by Reiko Yoshida) is not as strong as before. The fluctuation is even more noticeable if you watch RK series since he has to juggle with a number of different writers with varied quality in between arcs or even episodes. His work in Hunter x Hunter TV (1999) was solid all around (even the fillers) coz he was able to work well with the script by Nobuaki Kishima.

Also, your complaint is that this Altair anime is too serious? So, is the manga more lighthearted or something?

No, the manga is not lighthearted and includes many heartbreaking scenes. But just like kuromitsu mentioned, there are still joke scenes in the manga to ligten the mood, which was somehow changed in the anime into more serious "sombre" moments. Mahmut and Suleyman's meeting in the manga has a lighter mood and Suleyman even laugh out loudly when he asked whether Mahmut dislikes Zaganos. I actually reread the tankobon up to the Suleyman chapter and found many jokes are cut and somehow downplayed into drama scenes. Even the scene where Khalil meets Mahmut in the first episode was quite funny in the manga, where mahmut act as straight man to Khalil's more jovial nature. The tone is very different to the drearier anime. Even in the current very epic arc, there are still comedy moments when the characters are not battling.

And yeah, the way the make it so serious really do remind me of those Taiga drama. I mean, I'm big fan of those really, but in general, being based on actual history, actually made the serious tone work. Altair, even with it well-researched historical basis , are still fiction with some outlandish elements. Seriously, when you have character like Abiriga, who is basically a ninja from not!Africa, making it into this grand realistic epic is just weird. And don't get me started on the Tauro twins.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

It's not that the manga is lighthearted (although in this episode some lighthearted scenes were changed to serious) but it's a lot more dry than the anime, and kind of more down to earth.

Originally Posted by iko_uwais

The tone is very different to the drier anime.

Umm...you're both manga-readers yet you have two very opposite views on this subject (just like in previous case of whether the hawks are wild or not).

kuromitsu said: the manga is drier
iko uwais said: the anime is drier

You're confusing me. Which one is the right one?