Is Anime being abused?

[FatalMemory]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

There really isn't "western anime"

Oops, didn't mean it that way, clearly not a morning person.
Edited my post.

In response to your post though, I guess you could say Avatar is anime-esque.
Although the creators apparently conceived of it around 2001, so it probably wasn't significantly inspired by anime that was out in the states at the time.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by FatalMemory

Indeed.
You both seem to be forgetting Cowboy Bebop though.
Being the first anime to air on Adult Swim, it was a fairly important landmark in the history of the western anime market.

Cowboy Bebop is important in a different sense than what roriconfan and I were concentrating on. We were mostly talking about shows that either indicated a major change in the anime-viewing audience, or initiated that change. Cowboy Bebop touched on the same story elements that Western anime fans had already been known to appreciate, so it didn't open up much new ground.

[Nosauz]

Well I do think that anime being ported to west having no other way to describe sometimes suffers censorship which is somewhat an abuse to storytelling and art in general. The only time a dub has made a show better or on the same level was probably done by Saban called Samurai Pizza Cats. If you look at the 4kid's cut censored dubbed version of One piece or Yugioh english dubb you can realize how badly they butcher the shows that hop across the ocean.

[FireChick]

Anime is so abused right now.

It's like 7/10 drawing books in a bookstore these days are "How to Draw Anime" books, and I'm not talking about the legitimate ones like "How to Manga" series.

It seems like just because you can draw, it automatically means you can draw anime, thus, you can make a book about it. Man, seriously; those books would make otaku's cry.


D'oh! I thought you were discussing generally anime being abused.

Not sure on the current topic. I rather enjoy anime right now to see it abused in a way.

Don't hate me or anything, but I personally think hentai is abusive. Well not only for me, but also a few other people I know IRL. It kinda ruins the glamour and grandness in anime. I mean I've heard from others that hentai have really suckish plots and that there are tons of anime which have way better animation, so I don't think it's necessary to watch.

YAAAAAAY!!! Somebody who agrees!!! If anyone wants something ecchi in an anime form, KEEP IT TO A FORMAT THAT'S NOT WELL KNOWN (like OVAs), or in a TV anime form, KEEP IT TO A FLIPPING MINIMUM!!!

[WolfCoder]

I agree too, but not as loudly. I cringe any time there's a fan-service scene in anything.

[roriconfan]

^ Then you dislike all modern anime.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by FireChick

YAAAAAAY!!! Somebody who agrees!!! If anyone wants something ecchi in an anime form, KEEP IT TO A FORMAT THAT'S NOT WELL KNOWN (like OVAs), or in a TV anime form, KEEP IT TO A FLIPPING MINIMUM!!!

Last I checked, there's a significant number of anime fans who are mature enough to handle a little sexual content in their anime without freaking out, which is why some of us watch shows like Bakemonogatari for both the plot and the fanservice. And last I checked not many studios are giving twelve episode OVAs the green light these days. And what's Clannad without the gym storage shed scene, which is easily one of the hottest anime scenes ever? Seriously, it's not like all anime fanservice is like Full Metal Panic's panty shots where the fanservice detracts from the show.

I don't really want to see ecchi relegated to OVAs only. I strongly suspect that the need to fit the whole plot in - what, two or three episode? - is at least a minor factor in the plot quality of most hentai.

(I sometimes wonder why nobody seems to market H OVAs as a compliment to a full blown TV series though.)

My only real gripe with the ecchi genre is the fact it usually seems to assume a serious lack of sophistication on the part of it's audience. When I can find an image of a girl licking a peach on a image archive that's hotter than most of the scenes in your typical ecchi anime despite having safe search on, it's safe to say that quite a few series aren't really delivering. And indeed, many of what I'd consider to be great fanservice scenes come from none fanservice oriented series - like the aforementioned gym storage shed scene with Kyou from Clannad.

[brocko]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

My only real gripe with the ecchi genre is the fact it usually seems to assume a serious lack of sophistication on the part of it's audience.

Exactly the same gripe i have as well. There are so many shows out there whose main drawpoint is entirely based on ecchi and fanservice. Once you take that away, the show has nothing to fall back upon what so ever. They just don't have any substance, and that's the saddest thing of all.

Fanservice isn't bad by any means, but when that's all a show has going for it, that's saying a lot bout the show in question.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Believe it or not, some of us are actually mature enough to enjoy shows like Bakemonogatari for both the plot and the fanservice

I have to say that I highly resent your implication that a person isn't mature simply because they don't like fanservice. A person can be perfectly mature and not be interested in fanservice. I wouldn't say that an interest in fanservice is immature, but nor is it immature to not have an interest in fanservice.

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by FireChick

YAAAAAAY!!! Somebody who agrees!!! If anyone wants something ecchi in an anime form, KEEP IT TO A FORMAT THAT'S NOT WELL KNOWN (like OVAs), or in a TV anime form, KEEP IT TO A FLIPPING MINIMUM!!!

But concerning your original post -- about shows that are primarily ecchi like Kanokon, Juuden-chan, etc, and not just normal shows with some fanservice -- they are ALREADY at a minimum. If you bother to check all of the TV series that come out for the year and actually count, it'll come out to that 30% or less that you said wanted. (the trend seem to show more of them in the summer than other seasons btw)

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I have to say that I highly resent your implication that a person isn't mature simply because they don't like fanservice. A person can be perfectly mature and not be interested in fanservice. I wouldn't say that an interest in fanservice is immature, but nor is it immature to not have an interest in fanservice.

While it's obviously true that you can be mature and not have any interest in fanservice, it does take a fair amount of maturity to avoid hating what you don't like.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by npcomplete

While it's obviously true that you can be mature and not have any interest in fanservice, it does take a fair amount of maturity to avoid hating what you don't like.

First, I don't understand how being "mature enough" is being a prerequisite for enjoying fanservice either. Except if 0utf0xZer0 means "having hit puberty" (and even that probably won't help in most cases if you happen to be a straight female).

Second, I don't see how your remark is connected to what 0utf0xZer0 said.

And finally, third, the difference between "not liking" and "hating" might often be relevant, in this case it's IMHO purely semantic.

[TJR]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

(I sometimes wonder why nobody seems to market H OVAs as a compliment to a full blown TV series though.)

It's probably a matter of the rights holders. Even now, heavy fan service titles are owned by companies that simply don't deal with the H market. It's forbidden territory, but at the same time, they're interested in pushing the boundaries of "general audience" markets to produce hits. For customers, there's a thrill (not to mention no shame) in buying "porn that's not porn".

An equivalent thing is kinda happening in the game industry. Manufacturers like Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft and respectable publishers want nothing to do with porn games. They'd never sublicense their stuff to adult-oriented companies. However, the boundaries are being pushed too, even on the Nintendo DS (that witch-spanking fetish game comes to mind).

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I have to say that I highly resent your implication that a person isn't mature simply because they don't like fanservice. A person can be perfectly mature and not be interested in fanservice. I wouldn't say that an interest in fanservice is immature, but nor is it immature to not have an interest in fanservice.

I'm just saying that I can handle sex in my anime in a reasonably mature manner. No reason you can't stake out a claim to the term "mature" as well - assuming, of course, that you actually are able to approach sex in anime without freaking out.

Originally Posted by TJR

It's probably a matter of the rights holders. Even now, heavy fan service titles are owned by companies that simply don't deal with the H market. It's forbidden territory, but at the same time, they're interested in pushing the boundaries of "general audience" markets to produce hits. For customers, there's a thrill (not to mention no shame) in buying "porn that's not porn".

An equivalent thing is kinda happening in the game industry. Manufacturers like Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft and respectable publishers want nothing to do with porn games. They'd never sublicense their stuff to adult-oriented companies. However, the boundaries are being pushed too, even on the Nintendo DS (that witch-spanking fetish game comes to mind).

Interesting observation, and a good point. However, I was actually thinking more in terms of various erogame adaptations. I think it's safe to say the rights holders for those have little problem with actual porn.

[roriconfan]

Sex is EVIL and anyone dealing with ero games and ero anime will have his soul burning eternally in hell for his sins.

...or something along these lines. Ain't religion wonderful?

Anyway, ero anime and games are NOT abused by the big shots if they want nothing to do with them.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I'm just saying that I can handle sex in my anime in a reasonably mature manner.

Well, there's nothing immature about liking Bakemonogatari strictly for the plot elements and excellent characters. I don't have any problem with the degree of fanservice in Bakemonogatari, but it's not what I, personally, take enjoyment from in it.

No reason you can't stake out a claim to the term "mature" as well - assuming, of course, that you actually are able to approach sex in anime without freaking out.

All I'll say here is this... there can come a point when an anime or manga is so overladen with fanservice that it distracts from the plot, or simply what's going on in the story. I know more than a few manga readers that find the Negima! manga impossible to enjoy because there's fanservice on practically every other page.

It's not about prudishness at all... it's about wanting to focus on what's actually going on in the story, instead of distracting pantyshot no. 15499. This is especially annoying, imo, during epic battles.

If people are complaining about that it's not because they're freaking out at the sexual content - it's that they're simply finding it distracting from the plot.

Now, thankfully, Bakemonogatari has not had any distracting fanservice like that yet - what fanservice it has had flows naturally from the plot, so it doesn't distract people that are mostly interested in the plot.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, there's nothing immature about liking Bakemonogatari strictly for the plot elements and excellent characters. I don't have any problem with the degree of fanservice in Bakemonogatari, but it's not what I, personally, take enjoyment from in it.

The "I'm just saying" was meant to imply that you're reading more into the statement than I originally intended. I'm perfectly willing to share the "mature" camp with people who enjoy the show for the plot so long as they don't freak about the fanservice, which in the case of this particular show I appreciate.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

All I'll say here is this... there can come a point when an anime or manga is so overladen with fanservice that it distracts from the plot, or simply what's going on in the story. I know more than a few manga readers that find the Negima! manga impossible to enjoy because there's fanservice on practically every other page.

It's not about prudishness at all... it's about wanting to focus on what's actually going on in the story, instead of distracting pantyshot no. 15499. This is especially annoying, imo, during epic battles.

If people are complaining about that it's not because they're freaking out at the sexual content - it's that they're simply finding it distracting from the plot.

Now, thankfully, Bakemonogatari has not had any distracting fanservice like that yet - what fanservice it has had flows naturally from the plot, so it doesn't distract people that are mostly interested in the plot.

I believe that I've mentioned twice that I found some of the panty shots in Full Metal Panic inappropriate, and I'm clearly not accusing myself of freaking out. Hell even the aforementioned Bakemonogatari has a few fanservice scenes I think maybe should have been downplayed a bit.

I'm just disputing the idea that fanservice is always bad and that it needs to be minimized or relegated to OVAs. Sex is a legitimate element in stories aimed at a mature audience.

[animeboy12]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, there's nothing immature about liking Bakemonogatari strictly for the plot elements and excellent characters. I don't have any problem with the degree of fanservice in Bakemonogatari, but it's not what I, personally, take enjoyment from in it.

well I certainly hope one can like a anime strictly for the storytelling or characters what with anime being a story telling and all. At the same time though I don't think there's a wrong or right way to like an anime series, you just do.

I'm sure one can watch Bakemonogatari, and ignore the great characters and story for fanservice and vice-versa. My main problem with FireChick's posts is that there's a lack of respect for other peoples opinions. That somehow people are "wrong" for liking and support a genre they like because that genre doesn't fit her ideals for what anime should be. I'm not saying one's has to like all the genres of anime to be correct or "mature" but you should at least respect that other people have different tastes than you.

Originally Posted by Kimura sensei

Tastes are subjective. The world would be a better place if everyone respected each other tastes instead of getting in fights over it.

yes,yes it would

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I'm just disputing the idea that fanservice is always bad and that it needs to be minimized or relegated to OVAs. Sex is a legitimate element in stories aimed at a mature audience.

I certainly don't think so. It's like any other device it can be used the wrong way, overused, and yes even underused *cough*dragonauts*cough*. As far distracting, I'm actually big fan of fanservice and ecchi, which actually helps a lot because if anything it make you more jaded about the stuff, so unless a series is going out of it's way to reference it's fanservice a lot I.E sparkely background focused of cleavage or panties or the pantyshots in negima have no effect on the story and it's just that the camera happen to be focus on asuna's panties at the moment I don't care. Basically I don't find anything wrong if the fanservice is just "there" and whether or not it's "there" doesn't effect the other components of the series

A great example that I know would be najica blitz tatics had a great story, solid characterizations, and well choreographed fight scene but had a pantyshot literally every 2 seconds but since they weren't reference and it didn't obstruct the other parts of the anime I don't really see any need to get worked up about it. (For anyone still aroused by pantyshots do not watch series, as you will burn after 2 episodes)

[jorez]

This also applies to real life series, you know. They can fall under the non-original series and be abused just as the time passes. It also happens with anime: imagine someone comes out with an excellent idea/plot (like Gurren-Lagann). It could've failed or had a good success.

The same stories still sell in Japan, why stop making them?

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

First, I don't understand how being "mature enough" is being a prerequisite for enjoying fanservice either. Except if 0utf0xZer0 means "having hit puberty" (and even that probably won't help in most cases if you happen to be a straight female).

Second, I don't see how your remark is connected to what 0utf0xZer0 said.

And finally, third, the difference between "not liking" and "hating" might often be relevant, in this case it's IMHO purely semantic.

My reply was actually to Triple_R. What I'm saying is amongst this arguing of maturity, that the need for maturity is orthogonal to the enjoyment of fanservice; that they are unrelated.

But what is related, is that if you do not enjoy fanservice, it takes maturity to realize that it is a personal preference and to not be angry of its existence. Likewise it is when you are a fan of it, there's no need to convince the world of its merits. Passionately railing for or against something that has no objective effect on your life seems silly.

[Theowne]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I have to say that I highly resent your implication that a person isn't mature simply because they don't like fanservice.

I applaud your restraint. My response would have been something like, "What planet is this person from?". That's the only way I would understand connecting maturity with fanservice.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I'm just disputing the idea that fanservice is always bad and that it needs to be minimized or relegated to OVAs. Sex is a legitimate element in stories aimed at a mature audience.

Scenes involving sex as a storytelling element are not the same as gratuitous fanservice. See: Kare Kano. Or Honey and Clover.