AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Community Today's Posts Search

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired A-L > Claymore

Notices

View Poll Results: Claymore - Chapter 107 rating
Perfect 10 21 14.89%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 14 9.93%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 11.35%
7 out of 10 : Good 20 14.18%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 5.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 2.13%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 2.13%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 1.42%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.71%
1 out of 10 : Painful 53 37.59%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-09-03, 12:56   Link #721
MisterJB
Warden of the West
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Casterly Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixl View Post
Consider all the way back in the Slasher's arc where she wasted her Mirages just to save Deneve, Helen, and Claire from the AB? If she had those extra jumps she could have done more.
Quote:
Miria split the strongest Claymores into groups with the weaker claymores? Why? So that the weaker ones had a chance. That was not perfect strategy. Again with the suppression pills, she did it to increase everyone's chances, not just her own.
These

Quote:
In this case, she went alone so that her other teammates would not have to make the choice of killing humans.
and this are very different things.
In the first two, she was trying to save her comrades from certain death. It migth not have been the most logical thing to do but yes, Miria is altruistic. No arguing there.
In the last one, she is simply not saving her comrades from anything. She didn't even ask Tabitha if she wanted to figth. She made a decision for them, one that won't do anyone any good.
This is not characteristic of her. Miria, in the North, let all of them decide for their own if they wanted to move South or not.

And it didn't even made sense. If she is afraid of Tabitha killing claymores, then I assumed she was ready to kill them herself but apparently not.

Quote:
Altruism is not stupidity
Letting enemy soldiers live while you walk deeper and deeper into enemy territory is stupid, no matter how you look at it.
__________________
MisterJB is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 12:58   Link #722
Ardha
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In a Dream
At first I was shocked that she died but I'm over it now

lol I liked the chapter and No.10's power is interesting
Ardha is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 13:12   Link #723
Nixl
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Mr JB, since Miria's introduction what has her concern been for? Claymores, people, and more claymores. Her character never changed. Sparing her enemies is not stupidity, because those are exactly the people Miria is trying to save. Miria's cause has been to save all claymores, which is reflected in the Slaher's arc, the Piera arc, and the Riful/Rachel/Audrey rescue. Every claymore, whether friend or foe, Miria/ghosts have saved. This situation is no different. Why would Miria suddenly change to kill claymores? That in itself would be a sudden character change. Miria has always been so ideological that she is in fact an illogical person. Her saving grace is that she is a strategist, but on an object one.

The major difference with this case is not about killing claymores since that was never an option to Miria. The major difference is that humans/Mibs (not hybrid claymores) had to be killed. Remember Galatea's talk with Tabitha? The conclusion was that Tabitha would kill humans if it came to it. Miria did not want that by any means and so she is saving the other ghosts from having to make that decision. The ghosts want to topple the organization, but at the same time not degrade into killers(this cannot be underestimated). That in itself creates a problem. How to topple a human-led organization without killing humans? Easy, one person takes the hit(s). Miria never gave them the choice out of the need to protect them and their humanity. That is why she went alone.

Miria is trying to free claymores. No matter what, this is a suicide mission for Miria. Why? Because she took it upon herself to kill humans and accept the punishment for killing humans.

In conclusion, why would she kill the people she is trying to save? It is would be like trying to uplift a country by bombing the shit out of it. On top of the fact that Miria was always an idealist and altruistic character. Furthermore, the crisis of character is that she has to kill humans, but she does not want the others to make that type of sacrifice. Finally, and this where we disagree the most probably; Miria does not want any of the ghosts to degrade into killers.


Miria nailed herself to a cross as strange as it sounds.

Last edited by Nixl; 2010-09-03 at 13:27.
Nixl is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 13:26   Link #724
Shiek927
Thread Hijacker
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In a hole, I just need to dig myself out
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJB
A warrior that was specifically trained to figth other warriors and has a god ability that only works on a warrior at once.
Now, what are the chances of this situation actually presenting itself? To me it seems like Yagi just wanted to make Miria's defeat plausible.
That's actually a very good question; at first I thought that this warrior was specifically made to fight the Ghosts, alongside the shrimp twins...but what are the odds of another Ghost being out by themselves? Miria in herself, going out on her own, was practically nil.

I can't think of a situation where this kind of warrior would be affective against the Ghosts.
__________________
"You know, their are as many ways to live as their are people in this world...and each one deserves a closer look."
Shiek927 is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 13:26   Link #725
Newhope
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
I have absolutely no problem with the way Miria was trying to spare the claymore's that's in Miria's character, it's the oh look we have this claymore that no one has ever heard about with this random mindfuck ability that just happens to be the perfect weapon to take you down it's just plain bad writing it could be ripped straight out of bleach and I extect alot better from Claymore.

And there's no way she's been made to just fight the ghosts unless they can vat grow somebody and train them within a few months time span, only reason I can think she exists is because they expect rebellion.
Newhope is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 13:32   Link #726
Kanon
Kana Hanazawa ♥
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 37
WHAT?!

This chapter shocked me so much it motivated me to post in this section for once. I need to vent my frustration. How could Miria, one of the best character in this manga, die like this? It's not that she died that pissed me off so much, but the way it happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Honestly, I could have swallowed this pill if she just blurred Miria's senses, which then would eventually lead to her defeat, but NOOOOO, they had to give her the ability to mind-rape Miria as well just so she could get humiliated in the process.
I couldn't agree more. The mindrape was completely unneeded. Miria was tricked by some petty illusion... are you shitting me? God, the second to last page was simply heartbreaking. I never thought I'd see her like this.

I MAD
__________________
Rize and Kaneki
Kanon is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 13:33   Link #727
Nixl
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Newhope that has happened since the beginning. Consider,

Yoma can shapeshift vs Claymores can sense
Teresa's perception vs Priscilla's suppression.
Dauf's strength vs Galatea's manipulation.
Dauf's armor vs Jean's drill.
Ophelia's ripple sword vs Irene's flash sword
Isley vs Feeders
Rigardo vs Claire
Alicia/Beth
Awakened Priscilla vs A destroyer that can drain energy.

No character so far has been untouchable. The difference is that we have received virtually no character development from this one as of yet. The only one that really angered me was Claire's sudden inner-shounen hax against Rigardo. Personally, for me this is far less annoying since we may or may not get some character development. What would annoy is if she dies 5 chapters later and accomplishes nothing else in the story.
Nixl is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 13:36   Link #728
Ryus
The One Eyed King
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lurking Up Ahead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
WHAT?!

This chapter shocked me so much it motivated me to post in this section for once. I need to vent my frustration. How could Miria, one of the best character in this manga, die like this? It's not that she died that pissed me off so much, but the way it happened.



I couldn't agree more. The mindrape was completely unneeded. Miria was tricked by some petty illusion... are you shitting me? God, the second to last page was simply heartbreaking. I never thought I'd see her like this.

I MAD
We've [the majority of us anyways...] been flipping out now about this for 2 days... since the spoiler pics were pretty much the last 6 pages of the chapter...

Remember to vote for what you thought of the chapter hopefully Yagi will get the message.
__________________
Ryus is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 13:37   Link #729
Gooral
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The town where Copernicus was born.
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
Wow, this is really, really bad.

1-That's not a trump card, it's something Yagi pulled out of his anus or, according to Ryus, Rimuto's balls.
A warrior that was specifically trained to figth other warriors and has a god ability that only works on a warrior at once.
Now, what are the chances of this situation actually presenting itself? To me it seems like Yagi just wanted to make Miria's defeat plausible.
Well, I disagree. I would call a warrior with such abilities a trump card. It was their last line of defence. Even if it doesn't work on ABs (which we don't really know) they always had some counter measure against them. Teresa -> Luciella -> Alicia. #10 is their secret weapon. Such unique abilities are nothing but awesome. It's no surprise to me that they're calling her a trump card, not AFs or Alicia and Beth. It would suffice that Raftela's prey had strong emotions and she could defeat them. It's a perfect weapon against rebellious warriors but not only them. I don't see how it wouldn't work on someone that didn't hate MiB. They just wouldn't use it on others. They wouldn't waste her on anyone else and use her only in emergencies. She's a warrior-vs-warrior specialist. It's still very useful ability. It makes perfect sense that they consider her as a trump card. Any single warrior is of no match to them (maybe Galatea or Clare could defend against such abilities). That in itself is a great thing. Even if more warriors were attacking, #10 would have a good chance of taking out the strongest. We don't know limitations of her power. If she could make Miria hallucinate like this it's possible she could make her believe that someone was attacking Hilda (Tabitha for example), it was probably possible to make her confuse allies with enemies and attack everyone. For other enemies they have AFs and twins. To them most dangerous are rebellious intelligent warriors like Miria, ABs whose only ambition is eating guts are no threat to them. Isley, Riful and Luciella have proven it. Instead of attacking them while they had a chance they idly sit by. If anything you should have problems with that.

All of this could only happen now that Alicia and Beth weren't present. If Miria and co. destroyed the Org I would say it was too convenient and MiBs were retards they let this happened. Everyone, please note that it was Yagi that gave ghosts such huge power up, MiB didn't know that! So from their point of view they really had a trump card. And it was them that used this term (Rubel to be specific). As we could see Miria exceeded their expectations completely but that's a given since they didn't know about partial awakening. In their eyes ghosts were trash, they knew their abilities before Pieta battles and they knew they could only be useful as cannon fodder. Some no names like #22 who could stretch her hands if she appeared they would laugh in her face. I would guess that to take Organization down force no less than Clare and Miria would be needed. Miria + Tabitha shouldn't be enough since Tabitha was many levels below Miria. She could also use her abilities only when she stayed focused and immobile (at least it looked that way when they were fighting Agatha). Even assuming she could do it during her fight, she wouldn't be able to keep up with Miria leading to Miria worrying about her and becoming a handicap to her. Do you think that Miria would be able to defend her against the twins while at the same time defending herself? Somehow I doubt it. Unless she killed the twins at the start it would end the same, only this time Tabitha would be also dead.
Yagi could have killed Miria in many ways. Letting AFs defeat her, making twins more powerful or warriors #3-10 more powerful so that they wouldn't be incapacitated with one move effortlessly or he could come up with Abyssal abyssal, something stronger than Priscilla that from the start was defending MiB. Every option was worse than what he had chosen IMO. The option he chose made the biggest impact of all.

Nixl, I will add some other examples in response to JB's post. When Miria was fighting Rigaldo she didn't know what to do. If not for Clare, Deneve and Helen she would be dead. Also it was Jean not Miria that noticed first that Rigaldo is going after captains and if she didn't shouted it and wasn't distracted she might have defended herself better. As I've written earlier, Alicia and Beth leaving HQ was the same as Priscilla showing in Clare's face. It was Miria's weak point, her hatred. Miria's Pieta plan wasn't perfect. She wouldn't succeed if not for suppressant pills which somehow she got. That was the best part of her plan. With suppressant pills anyone with average intelligence would use them. Before the battle Miria was talking gibberish in a cave instead of evacuating people (humans that were still in Pieta). All this meeting for half-awakends exclusively was only to let everyone know that they have 0 chances of survival which served no purpose at all. It could only break their morale. She was far from being perfect but then again there are no perfect characters in Claymore which is very good. It only made her more human. Many of you wanted her to be a cold, calculated person who she wasn't as we could see in her fight against Rigaldo. She was a great strategist if she could look at everything calmly, without rush but with Alicia gone she was in a rush. In this case Miria couldn't wait, she couldn't have known that Tabitha could help her (or not, we don't really know how useful she could be). Obviously she was expecting something like the twins not some turtle AB. And waiting on Clare, Helen and Deneve would take too much time (she could wait forever for all she had known). They were the only ones that could keep up with her (in fact only Clare could keep up with her but Helen and Deneve wouldn't be left so far behind as Tabitha).

Last edited by Gooral; 2010-09-03 at 13:50.
Gooral is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 13:40   Link #730
Tom Bombadil
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
They came first for Isley,
and I didn't speak up because he is a cat-killer.

Then they came for Riful,
and I didn't speak up because she is no virgin.

Then they came for the Twins,
and I didn't speak up because they are with pimps.

Then they came for Maria,
and by that time there is hardly any cool character left.


/someone should give it a better spin.
__________________
Tom Bombadil is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 13:44   Link #731
Gooral
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The town where Copernicus was born.
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
That's actually a very good question; at first I thought that this warrior was specifically made to fight the Ghosts, alongside the shrimp twins...but what are the odds of another Ghost being out by themselves? Miria in herself, going out on her own, was practically nil.

I can't think of a situation where this kind of warrior would be affective against the Ghosts.
Let me answer to this question separately. MiB weren't taking any chances. In case someone rebelled they've had a perfect leash for them. If sth like that didn't happen - OK. If it did and they didn't have counter measures - not OK. And in case there were more than just one intruder, we don't know how it would end. Even if the would be defeated it would still be more than nothing. And if #10 could use one warrior against the other she wouldn't be 1-on-1 warrior only. Rubel doesn't know everything.
Gooral is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 13:45   Link #732
dantyx
Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
no 10 her name is raftela @_@

anyway the the chapter is out in E
dantyx is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 13:52   Link #733
irvinethearcher
Angriest Angel
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
The annoying thing is that if miria would have killed those soulless shrimp twins immediately she wouldn't have to release her yoki and would probably be still alive.
IN this fight she somewhere had to release yoki this went to her downfall.
__________________
irvinethearcher is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 13:54   Link #734
Ryus
The One Eyed King
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lurking Up Ahead
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantyx View Post
no 10 her name is raftela @_@
Raft... ... more like life jacket What good is she against is actual warfare?

@Gooral we don't have a problem with Miria dying or this warrior. It was the poor way she [#10] was introduced and her power seemly the perfect counter only in this situation which Miria seemingly walked right into. Her number being 10 was out of the blue (it's like Yami (hope I got the name right) in Bleach being both #10 and #0 )... dump the number and have her rankless and/or make her a new warrior with a high number. So what if we never meet Clare's gen #10 there was no trend before hand showing there was never a known #10 throughout other generations and people could actually suspect something. This felt like watching the Star Wars prequels and just being told of past adventure of Obiwan and Anikin.

Next off the way Miria was violated (hence us calling it mindfuck & rape) and it was just more horrific than anything in the story thus far... except maybe for Clare's time as a Yoma's play thing but that wasn't shown for a very good reason.
__________________
Ryus is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 14:20   Link #735
Jean Claymore
Former #9
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by irvinethearcher View Post
The annoying thing is that if miria would have killed those soulless shrimp twins immediately she wouldn't have to release her yoki and would probably be still alive.
IN this fight she somewhere had to release yoki this went to her downfall.
The conclusion would have been the same. Yagi intended to kill Miria at the first time he brought her out from Rabona although his story was unreasonable why would Miria commit a suicide. After all, i would say Miria was a good leader for the ghosts but not smart enough to read the MiB's plan they had at least a trump card at the same level of an AO.

Raftela wasn't THAT strong making us to believe she was actually a trump card. She was just a barricade for defense against the those who rebelled the org. Truly, She wasn't useful against an AB or AO although she was a warrior vs warrior specialist. I don't see what's the brillant point Raftela making illusions or blublering the opponent's eyes to see a mirage. It's the same thing we say Clare's QS and WC were so AWESOME that could have killed even an AO easily. That makes no sense. I don't know what was the intention of Yagi killing Miria off but he made her look stupid taking this mission alone. We already saw Rubel's talking 'bout she would have gotten the revenge if she had come with other ghosts. The combination between the trump card and the shrimp twins was perfect to take down a single warrior; not a group of rebelling ghosts. For example, Miria could have taken the action bringing Miata and Tabitha at least. This was already predicted.... and seems the story's going so easy to predict IMO.
__________________
Jean Claymore is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 14:21   Link #736
Dj0rel
True Believer
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Now that I have seen the actual chapter I can fully form a opinion. It was great. For a while now I was under impression that Yagi forgot that he is writing Claymore and that in Claymore sometimes good guys get killed in a very gruesome manner. Ever since Pieta it seemed like Ghosts have gotten themselves plot armor. Now I think that the reason other Ghosts kept surviving against crazy odds until now was to fool us into believing they are somehow safe and then we get a punch in our guts. (Make that a FALCON punch in our guts)

Miria's death wasn't entirely pointless. This way rest of the Ghosts will know that the Org has something up their sleeve, something that can kill Miria. At least one of the Ghosts should be smart enough to figure this out. It is possible that this was Miria's intention all along. She already knows the how strong no.3 and no.5 are so she attacks the org while Alicia and Beth are away and if she wins, she spares her friends from having to kill humans, if she dies she is sending her friends a message "The org has a way to defend themselves so don't %^&* around".

The trump card has turned out to be a warrior specifically trained to counter other warriors. It makes sense. And she's no.10, one rank under a "single digit radar". The name kinda bothers me. I mean Rafut... um... Rafn... what? I think I'll just call her LSD.
Dj0rel is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 14:26   Link #737
yononaka
nani ni tatoemu
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Next off the way Miria was violated (hence us calling it mindfuck & rape) and it was just more horrific than anything in the story thus far... except maybe for Clare's time as a Yoma's play thing but that wasn't shown for a very good reason.
Someone being illusioned out ot their mind for a few minutes and killed essentially under anesthesia was the most horrific thing in this story? An interesting point of view. Wasn't the enslavement of hordes of young girls mentioned in this very chapter?

@Gooral: that last lots-of-bold one was a great post. If not for you being on the record calling me a fool, I'd be starting to like you

@Nixl: some very good points in the last few posts.

Last edited by yononaka; 2010-09-03 at 14:38.
yononaka is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 14:30   Link #738
Dark Mage
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Damn! Felt so sad reading the chapter. What a pathetic way to get killed. It reminded me of the way Terressa died, why does all the strong warriors die so pathetically? With Miria gone, one of my most favourite characters in Claymore is dead and I was expecting her to die with abit more honour instead of on her knees with tears and under an illusion. I wish she died in a fair fight without being deluded into defeat.

Miria was way too kind and that was her biggest flaw. Her first mistake was to go there alone, and the second mistake was to show mercy to her opponents. I mean she could've cut off their heads anytime she wanted before that number 10 could interfere. R.I.P Phantom you will be missed.

I wonder who will lead the 6 now? I wish Galatea would get back her eye-sight as she would've been the perfect leader IMO. Anyways does anyone remember who the "old numer 10" was? Has it ever been mentioned?

I want to see Raki next.
__________________
Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.
Dark Mage is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 14:35   Link #739
Ryus
The One Eyed King
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lurking Up Ahead
Quote:
Originally Posted by yononaka View Post
Someone being illusioned out ot their mind for a few minutes and killed essentially under anesthesia was the most horrific thing in this story? An interesting point of view. Wasn't the enslavement of hordes of young girls mentioned in this very chapter?
Not shown but done... the worst part of the violation you mention (the actual turning process) has never been shown. Nor have we ever seen the brain washing and conditioning they're given as trainees. Again not shown for a reason...

From what was shown, rather than the reader imagine (key difference there, it's how the Movie Dark Knight got a pg-13 rating and not an R even with the "torture" scene where the Joker "tortures" the fake batman), this was by far the worst violation of a human we've seen thus far in the manga. Even worse than Miria being stabbed in the gut with the tongue by far.

---------------------

Anyways after rereading it few times I have slight issues with how Miria's yoki was released enough for this to take effect. We the readers didn't see it happen but just told of it later. Sure it was dramatic but far from respected the readers intelligence, yet them speculate on the meaning of her releasing her yoki then have #10s powers take effect.

anyways gtg... back on later...
__________________
Ryus is offline  
Old 2010-09-03, 14:41   Link #740
Newhope
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
So it's now oh look she's released her yoki which we can't see so we can now mind-rape you then have you acting like your dead best friend is still alive, this chapter just gets better and better.

Last edited by Newhope; 2010-09-03 at 15:28.
Newhope is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
claymore, manga


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.