New codec

[NinjaServ]

Originally Posted by SirCanealot

VP6, RV10 and WMV9 are NOT better than XVid.

VERY much true, but you left out HALF of the information, Xvid is NOT better than VP6, RV10 and WMV9 either. XviD has some MAJOR flaws in it at the current moment, EXPECIALLY with the color BLUE. Each codec has it's good points and bad points. For example, WMV9, if you use the avi codec, it isn't supported by MAC and has to be RIGGED to work on Linux boxes (and doesn't work on some), as well as you mentioned in another post about it taking a lot to decode too. With all these codecs tho, one this stands true, DivX has currently been left in the dust, all we can do is watch to see if they catch back up to the competition.

[SirCanealot]

AAC works with avi, ditto DTS. Don't know of any other advanced audio codecs. Maybe ogg (which indeed does not work with avi), but that seems to be optimised for low bitrates.

AAC requires another codec install; which means it's in EXACTLY the same boat boat as .mkv. And while we're at it, then, why not use .mkv?
And why mention DTS? 0_o
I doubt many groups would be happy to feature 768 or 1500kbs audio streams in their releases 0_o

While I have not tested this myself extensively, savings should probably range in the 100KBs for a file with 1 video and 1 audio stream of 24mins length.

If VirtualDub isn't lying, muxing a VBR mp3 into a .avi file takes aproximately 2 megs. Muxing ogg into .mkv takes... several hundred k?

None (possible compatibility problems). None (possible compatibility problems). Apparently the same as with no filtering (as far as I am aware, xvid doesn't have the ability to test if a filter is being used and change its behaviour accordingly).

Oh yes, poor set-top box players. Well, since they can only (mostly) handle 1 B-Frame in a row, they're broke for most fansub encodes anyway. Don't see why you shouldn't use QPel or custom matrices (VERY unlickely to cause compatibility problems anyway) if it will help your source.
EVERYone who bought a set-top DVD player that plays DivX/whatever should be labled as an idiot, and forced to buy an X-Box - no more compatibility problems! ^^
And XVid DOESN'T detect filters being used, no. But of course, filtering changes the video, so why on earth wouldn't this change its behaviour of the codec?
Example:
Grain chocked Cell anime (no filtering, grain sent straght to codec)
Filtering grain chocked Cell anime (filtered, no grain sent sent to codec)
It's so different with digital, and also so weird, but there's NO way XVid doesn't respond in very random ways to the types of filtering you use...

I just put it in and press encode.

Want me to see if those Highschool! Kimengumi VOBs are still floating around? Or if not, I have Hajime no Ippo sitting here. Real treat there. Not even muich grain.
(Yes, I'm using cell-based anime as it's the extreme example).

I recently released ebichu 21-22, so you can judge for yourself, my encoding ability (with no filters!)

Oh fine! I was going to wait until Seichi finished subbing the last episode, then watch it all in one night or something (possibly leading to brain damage, from what I've heard of that show), but fine. I'll DL your bloody 21-22!
What, pray tell, are your sources? Winny DTV rips, or l33t VOB? It's not really a fair test with l33t VOB - as we know, XVid can actually work unfiltered fairly well from a completely clean source -_-

XviD has some MAJOR flaws in it at the current moment, EXPECIALLY with the color BLUE.

Umm, I can't say the colour blue myself... but, I do agree that XVid has some flaws. Which is why I'm saying XVid can do some odd things with certain sources... A friend was recently encoding FMA's 4th op from the complete best CD. The outcome? Everything up to the high-motion battle at the end of the op was block as fuck, and he couldn't be bothered to fix it, haha.
This is why I'm HOPING H.264 actually IS good. As it's going to be used on the next video disk, hopefully more developed versions of it WON'T have these annoying flaws...

[Sakaki-]

Originally Posted by NinjaServ

VERY much true, but you left out HALF of the information, Xvid is NOT better than VP6, RV10 and WMV9 either. XviD has some MAJOR flaws in it at the current moment, EXPECIALLY with the color BLUE. Each codec has it's good points and bad points. For example, WMV9, if you use the avi codec, it isn't supported by MAC and has to be RIGGED to work on Linux boxes (and doesn't work on some), as well as you mentioned in another post about it taking a lot to decode too.

Color blue ?
Never noticed that, maybe you can enlighten me outlaw :P

[NinjaServ]

Originally Posted by Sakaki-

Color blue ?
Never noticed that, maybe you can enlighten me outlaw :P

Blocks up a TON on dark shades of blue, no matter how much bitrate you give it.

[Sakaki-]

Originally Posted by NinjaServ

Blocks up a TON on dark shades of blue, no matter how much bitrate you give it.

Never experienced anything like that, though in older xvids and divx5's i experienced RED bleading alot.

Take Care
Sakaki-

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Sakaki-

Mentar you wont see anything but mp3 in fansubs till the raw capers change format.
Stuff like this you say make me wonder if you ever encoded tv source yourself.

I did, I did. Note that I didn't say that this is how it _is_ done _now_, but this is how things could be done better. If there was a growing acceptance to use mkv, the RAW providers would certainly adjust to it, because they're also in a competition to be selected. It's a matter of time, I guess - and the first roots mkv takes also in the fansub business will be DVD releases. This development has already started. Slowly, but nevertheless started. There is no reason why RAW providers couldn't tailor the encodes to 175 megs including a vorbis or HE-AAC track. It's just that there's no real demand for it - YET.

The issue with secrecy about scripts is true - there's alot of ego going around. However, we had the same stuff about encoding chains in the DVD ripping world, about how top groups would keep their tricks of trade secret. This was changed, and nowadays there's a high degree of cooperation and tech sharing there. The leading groups assist each other, and this is one of the main reason why the overall quality of dvd-based encodes has progressed immensely. I expect the fansub-script-secrecy to gradually fade away too over the next years just the same. Though I might overestimate the maturity of the people involved - as I said, ALOT of ego issues and personal feuds.

Let me ask you the other way round: Do you think that hardcoded avi with mp3 is gonna remain the dominant format over the next 2 years?

[NinjaServ]

Originally Posted by Sakaki-

Never experienced anything like that, though in older xvids and divx5's i experienced RED bleading alot.

Take Care
Sakaki-

I HIGHLY doubt that, I see traces of it in EVERY fansub released with XviD (1.0+ builds). Unless you have a crappy monitor or you are visually impaired, it's VERY hard to miss. It also has a hard time with a FEW shades of green.

[K_R]

Originally Posted by Sakaki-

K_R then you haven't seen a good encoder at work and your not going to be counted as one cause that is not even considered an effort.

As if it takes much effort to begin with. This isn't the days of shit raws & SBC with its setting of DRF values, etc. Look at all the raws that are coming out now. Not to mention the number of raws. A big name show can have up to 15 raws per episode to choose from! As for the quality of raws... The HDTV caps are, of course, immaculate. Analogue captures are almost as good. The most you ever need is to set the decoder to the highest filtering level (you do know how to do that, right?) and some very light spatial filtering, that's it. Any additional filtering will potentially wash out detail and otherwise alter the image past the original.

But, you could be right about me being crap. After all, AonE did reject my application for an encoder position. Probably just as well too...

@SirCanealot
Ebichu is encoded off my DVDs.

[SirCanealot]

Originally Posted by NinjaServ

I HIGHLY doubt that, I see traces of it in EVERY fansub released with XviD (1.0+ builds). Unless you have a crappy monitor or you are visually impaired, it's VERY hard to miss. It also has a hard time with a FEW shades of green.

http://www.williams1.homechoice.co.u...BlueBlock1.png
http://www.williams1.homechoice.co.u...BlueBlock2.png
(note: from first pass... quality might be better in the second; who knows. I pressed more random buttons with my AVISynth script open... :P)

Do you mean in places like this?
Or BRIGHT areas with dark blue? I've seen dark scenes tinged with blue (especially underwater stuff) block to buggery before, but I wouldn't say XVid had a specific problem with blue, but a specific problem with darkness in general...
If you mean other sorts of problems, any chance you can be bothered to provide an example?

The most you ever need is to set the decoder to the highest filtering level (you do know how to do that, right?)

Right, you've mentioned this before. What "decoder" are you talking about? AVISource (and whatever filter's post-processing would be used if it was on: eg, DivX5's post-processing for a DivX5 raw, etc), mpeg2soruce, or maybe even FFDShow with DirectShowSource?
Are you talking about this? http://www.williams1.homechoice.co.uk/XVidDecoder.png

That's the ONLY thing I can see in XVid's configeration.
And if it's really that good, I'll give it a whirl on a pretty blocky raw (DVD rip too) I have. I've been killing myself trying not to filter any detail, actually ^^
Perhaps I'm missing something very stupid and obvious here; but... what the hell AM I missing?

[crumja]

Oh man, I actually got through all that. I have to say, this thread is *very* funny. It also lends substance to the argument that encoders have hyperinflated egos. ^_^

Personally, Ive been disappointed in the quality of DVD ripping groups' eps, given the quality of the source. (not that I download them)

Ah well, if anyone cares:

I agree that mkv is superior to hardsubbed avi only due to its strength as a container. However, this does not mean that it will be adopted en-masse. In fact, throughout history, the technologically inferior product has often dominated the marketplace (or fansub scene in this case) because of marketing or an established usage base. Fansubbing is comparable to economics to some extent, and each group wants to see the masses choosing its releases over a competitor's. (It's the driving force behind subbing, unconsciously (or consciously) present in every subber to some degree. Don't deny it!) Thus, the group, and the encoder, is forced to conform to an established standard in order to be competitive. (hardcoded avi with mp3 audio) The problem thus lies not in the benefits of mkv versus its disadvantages but in the feasibility of releasing such a product.

In my experience, XviD as a codec is not necessarily superior to other codecs, just different. Each has its own quirks and filters the video in a differnet way. wmv9 spatially smoothes, rv blocks, and vp6 places the raw in a blender. XviD adds grain to the video though, especially around hard edges. However, right now, it is perhaps the most visually pleasing (which is all that matters in the end) codec. But for all I know, my eyes may be jacked, so feel free to experiment for yourself and discover what is, in your opinion, the best codec for your source.

Btw, K_R is taking the not filtering thing to an extreme. All sources will benefit from some type of filtering. However, the trick is to know when not to filter (since overfiltering is a problem on fansubs) and what filters not to use on certain scenes. This requires meticulous checking of every scene and sometimes every frame (the mojo, so to speak). All this is to obtain acceptable results in the end.

[Darth_E_]

98% of the times, you need to apply some sort of filtering to the raw. The source always has noise/blocks due to compression, so you need to remove that without losing much detail as possible. There are times when the colours need to be tweaked, there are times when the raws has ghosting and so on... Anyone who doesn't care about the encode quality nor do some effort at least to improve it doesn't deserve to be an encoder IMO.

Yours,
-Elly

[NinjaServ]

Originally Posted by SirCanealot

http://www.williams1.homechoice.co.u...BlueBlock1.png
http://www.williams1.homechoice.co.u...BlueBlock2.png
(note: from first pass... quality might be better in the second; who knows. I pressed more random buttons with my AVISynth script open... :P)

Do you mean in places like this?
Or BRIGHT areas with dark blue? I've seen dark scenes tinged with blue (especially underwater stuff) block to buggery before, but I wouldn't say XVid had a specific problem with blue, but a specific problem with darkness in general...
If you mean other sorts of problems, any chance you can be bothered to provide an example?



Right, you've mentioned this before. What "decoder" are you talking about? AVISource (and whatever filter's post-processing would be used if it was on: eg, DivX5's post-processing for a DivX5 raw, etc), mpeg2soruce, or maybe even FFDShow with DirectShowSource?
Are you talking about this? http://www.williams1.homechoice.co.uk/XVidDecoder.png

That's the ONLY thing I can see in XVid's configeration.
And if it's really that good, I'll give it a whirl on a pretty blocky raw (DVD rip too) I have. I've been killing myself trying not to filter any detail, actually ^^
Perhaps I'm missing something very stupid and obvious here; but... what the hell AM I missing?

In standstill scenes of course it's not gonna do TOO bad, but it doesn't affect all shades NOR does it effect it at all times (probably why you picked that TWO standstill scenes). As usual MOTION scenes are hit the hardest, and they block WORSE than they should. Also it affect Cartoon Mode worse than regular mode (which youstated earlier that you do not use cartoon mode), so your videos there had a LESS of a chance of causing this flaw, but I'm sure there are plenty of times in your encodes that this flaw has occured, you just seemed NOT to choose those for your screenshots.

There is ONE thing that stops it from occuring as much, that is grain from the raw if you don't filter much at all OR high detail which interrupts solid color sections. Usually night skys (like in Daphne, this flaw can be seen a LOT) it is worse. Usually this flaw hits TV encodes worse being the lack of detail to disrupt solid color sections.

[bayoab]

This is just turning into an ego thread. But anyways, on topic: If you know what you are doing and have the right raw, you do NOT need to filter. It looks just fine if done perfectly. Any encoder should know that not every raw needs the same work and not every encode needs the same filters (if any!). And the right point is, no codec is perfect, but some are better than others. You guys can go on repeating what you can read in 100's of pages of doom9 forums now....

Also, RMVB does decent 90mb encodes at 500kbps/640x480. However... that does not stop that the player is a piece of trash and there are almost no alternatives.

[Sakaki-]

Originally Posted by bayoab

This is just turning into an ego thread. But anyways, on topic: If you know what you are doing and have the right raw, you do NOT need to filter. It looks just fine if done perfectly. Any encoder should know that not every raw needs the same work and not every encode needs the same filters (if any!). And the right point is, no codec is perfect, but some are better than others. You guys can go on repeating what you can read in 100's of pages of doom9 forums now....

Also, RMVB does decent 90mb encodes at 500kbps/640x480. However... that does not stop that the player is a piece of trash and there are almost no alternatives.

Yeah you are right how you filter is ussualy a matter of taste, of what the encoder finds most visualy pleasing himself, i wont say im any expert i just try to make the encodes i do so i will not feel ashamed of myself in the future when i rewatch the episode i encoded.

Take Care
Sakaki-

[RaistlinMajereFS]

Okay, codecs:
-XviD DOES often have problems with darkness. Especially fades in darkness. It's sharp, but it has moderate blocking and ringing. Don't let me sound like I'm saying it sucks. I quite like XviD, but it definitely has its problems.
-DivX, comparatively speaking, sucks. It's got the same problems as XviD with added banding and less details.
-VP6 does smooth more spatially, but, depending on bitrate, can own XviD. XviD will look better at higher bitrates because it will be more detailed, but VP6 will own it in lower bitrates. Deciding what's a high or low bitrate depends on the source. 175MB for some anime episodes is too low of a bitrate for XviD and VP6 will do very well. It also doesn't use B-Frames which also makes it suited for use for raws. For those of you who think it looks like crap, you should actually try it. Maybe it doesn't look as good [as other codecs like XviD] to some people, but this codec does NOT look like crap.
-RV10 is pretty similar to VP6... It definitely doesn't block that much.
-WMV9 is similar to VP6/RV10 but it does smooth a bit too much for my tastes without really showing any more detail.
But what really owns is ATEME's H.264 implementation, now contained in Nero Recode 2. It can be played by FFDShow, though you have to enable H.264 in FFDShow options. If you want to test this out, make sure you use an AVC profile. And this program is set to auto-resize by default, so disable that too. It will create a H.264/AAC (HE or LC, your choice) in the MP4 container. If you don't like this, then use Graphedit to grab the video stream from the H.264, an audio stream in another format from a different file, and mux them into AVI/MKV/watever. But I'm not a fan of AVI, so I'd just like it left in the MP4, personally. Edit to note: You'll probably need to install 3ivx for its MP4 splitter if you want to do this.

Another note about FFDShow/other decoders: never just leave postprocessing on. A good encoder will give you something that doesn't need it. If you're watching a bad encode, then you can turn it on.

Also, video should always be filtered when encoding. Always. All lossy codecs leave behind some sort of noise, even if it's not visible to us. I'm not saying that every source needs a full on Deen. A simple BlindPP will often do the trick.

Also, Ogg Vorbis is NOT optimized FOR low bitrate. Just because a codec OWNS at a low bitrate does not mean it ONLY owns at said low bitrate. Vorbis will own MP3 at ANY bitrate and, IMO, is a match for HE-AAC. It can be put in AVI files, but it's considered a hack, just like VBR MP3s are. Both are prone to going out of sync when seeking very easily. It pains me to see so many encoders using VBR MP3 in AVI files.

Ninja, Mplayer supports WMV9. It exists on Linux and Mac. Edit: No, it doesn't use FFMPEG, but it still has the necessary binaries for other OSes. And AVI is just a container, not a codec.

"Also, RMVB does decent 90mb encodes at 500kbps/640x480. However... that does not stop that the player is a piece of trash and there are almost no alternatives." ----- You are completely right about the first part. However, look up RealAlternative. It installs the necessary junk to play RM files with Media Player Classic without installing Real's actual player. However, I don't know of any similar packages for *nix or Mac. If anyone knows of one for *nix, I would be interested in a link.

MKV is definitely superior to AVI. But that means another 5 second download for the average leecher that knows nothing about quality. Some of us aren't willing to do it. Maybe we need to all agree to stop using old technology and give the leecher little chance to stick with the old stuff.

[Access]

Xvid doesn't have to use b-frames either, if you don't like them, turn them off. Seriously, there has a to be a big jump in moving from one format to another.

Long ago, things were either .mpg or .rm, then there were some obscure codecs like vivo and others. Not much digital fansubing going on, but pleanty of video capture and what-not. Once divx311alpha (.avi) came out, esp. with nandub, much better compression than MPEG-1, much better quality than .rm. Even though .avi was much poorer in terms of compatibility, most people had windows so it wasn't such a big deal. Then divx5 and xvid came out, and again the increase in quality was obvious, not much of a change because it was still a .avi file. Just a new codec to install.

I can still play an .mpg file even today, and an .rm if I care to install the player. But then there are formats like vivo and others that I probably couldn't find a player for today. Something like .mkv, .wmv, etc. who is to say these new formats will even be playable several years from now, rather than having the same fate as the vivo codec and others that were just lost.

Remember for instance when .asf files started show up just because they were the latest thing, they didn't offer any real advantage over .avi and the a/v sync was often off. Hence no mass migration. People are going to stick with .avi and xvid codec until something significantly better comes along.

[K_R]

vivo, the porno format =)

[RaistlinMajereFS]

Yes, but XviD without B-frames is lacking in quality compared to the other codecs.

[CompShrink]

Originally Posted by RaistlinMajereFS

Ninja, Mplayer/FFMPEG decodes WMV9. It exists on Linux and Mac. And AVI is just a container, not a codec.

"Also, RMVB does decent 90mb encodes at 500kbps/640x480. However... that does not stop that the player is a piece of trash and there are almost no alternatives." ----- You are completely right about the first part. However, look up RealAlternative. It installs the necessary junk to play RM files with Media Player Classic without installing Real's actual player. However, I don't know of any similar packages for *nix or Mac. If anyone knows of one for *nix, I would be interested in a link.

Basically, you can play (virtually) anything on linux/mac with the "w32codec" pack and mplayer. FFMPEG boasts almost as complete compatability. I have heard wmv3 has problems at times, but I've only tried wmv3 once, and it worked for me... The other thing Mplayer can't play with those is rm10, which, I would surprisingly suggest the official Real Player.

Now, before you write me off as a wacko for suggesting RealPlayer, it's nothing like the windows version. It doesn't even play formats other than RM. Not mpeg, not divx or xvid, i don't think any type of avi, no mpeg2, just RM. It's a very good minimalist player, I am using Real player from this page, and it takes up 1.5% of my ram, and 0.8% of my processor while playing video (640x480, highly compressed). I am not kidding... and I only have a 1.4Ghz Athlon with 512mb ram on my linux box, nothing earth-shattering.

With Real's Linux/Mac player so efficient, and the realalternative/MPC combo on Windows, I don't think player compatability should be a problem. As I recall, when this same computer was running windows, with MPC, RM files took about 2% to 3% of my processor power, still much less than divx. RM's codec is rather impressive when properly implemented.

Most people don't know about these things, and so there is bad leecher public opinion of RM, which I think is unrepresentative of the true situation.

[Spooky-Electric]

I really hope fansubs don't go the way of MKV.

MKV has never been anything but a headache for me. I can never get them to work. I like my setup I have now.