(L) Arpeggio of Blue Steel (Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio)

[Tenzen12]

Sure Arpeggio from alternative universe you watching have plot holes. I am glad mine is perfectly consistent.

[EadTaes]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Sure Arpeggio from alternative universe you watching have plot holes. I am glad mine is perfectly consistent.

Well plot holes created by things that could possibly function differently in said alternate universe can be forgiven.

Plot holes created by your own plot device that you created for you story specifically are terribly sad.

[Tenzen12]

We already explained how it works, authors confirmed it. Honestly If you were right, THAT would bring plot holes as it makes very little sense in Arpeggio settings. Anyway you should just read whole things again (I did four times si if there were some incosistence U would notice it).

Anyway until some new argument is brought to the table, I am finished with this discussion.

[DLRevan]

I am embarrassed, as I myself read the special book before. Then again, what I've been saying matches what the special book says perfectly, so maybe I don't need to be embarrassed.

It really confirms everything I've Tim yy, Tenzen and I have said. What plot holes...

Originally Posted by CrazyPerson

Your first and second points contradict each other. The I-400 class has sufficient power as Iona'a fired the cannon before. And why not fire the cannon at a lower power setting, a setting low enough to not stress power generation or nanomaterials?

Just to point out these as examples, but you make a ton of unsubstantiated or incorrect assumptions in your arguments. There's no evidence that power output can even be varied, and Iona clearly wasn't designed to bear the power output required.

[Tim yy]

@Tenzen12, Thanks for posting the actual glossary, that made things a lot easier to explain.
@DLRevan, there is nothing to be embarrassed about. It's not until the time you explained the concept of quantum computers, that I went back and read the glossaries in the manga. lots of things (black technologies) were actually explained in detail in these glossaries.
There is also a short glossary at the end of volume 2 I think, regarding how nanomaterials behave like "atoms", and Takao made replica bodies detailed to the atomic level.

@EadTaes

that I was able to read, said that all nanomaterial is identical. They could well be "specialised"

This is might be possible, we've seen examples that nanomaterials retain a signature of its user. Haruna was able to pick up Takao's signature from the nanomaterials she left in her apartment.

@Crazyperson

Why not have Haruna reconfigure to the sensors of an I400 class and then let Kirishima pound on Iona? Haruna would still have all her missiles and torpedoes and have sensor capability to sense Iona.

Because it's redundant for them to do so, and did not make any sense for Battleship to resort to such tactics. Kirishima/Huruna even had a side fleet they can use for reconnaissance and partol, but they didn't even use them, to find the reasons you just have to read that part again.

The Fog haven't cared about overkill.

Oh they SO cared, Maya's Annihilation attack had to be halted by the AC personally. Now that's an overkill.

The I-400 class has sufficient power as Iona'a fired the cannon before.

Iona has enough, but barely enough. Every component were stressed to the max when she used it.

And why not fire the cannon at a lower power setting, a setting low enough to not stress power generation or nanomaterials?

This is self-explanatory, If they can, then they would. Mostly they prefer not to use it or only use it as a last resort.

Iona has a Modified "Battleship-grade" SGC installed on her, If you look at the way how SGC was fired then you'll know how inefficient and cumbersome it is compared to an example like Takao's. Even if it can be deployed at lower energy levels, the stress placed on the ship and processing power still will restrict her to use it only as a tactical weapon.

@EadTaes: what was the plot hole? That not every ship goes around with a SGC or a mirror ring system if they can just install the software and morph their nanomaterials?
You can read the part about the union core and their respective processing power to find out.
A lower ranked ship, light cruisers, destroyers simply do not have the processing power to operate weapons of that grade.
I-401 was a special case, and her SGC was heavily modified.
U-2051's mirror ring system was several magnitude smaller
Takao's SCG does not cause spatial distortion on a scale like Kirishima's
You have to note that inner workings of some of these weapons are a secrete even among the Fog.
Also, I think what was explained by 00idiot was more than enough to justify the plot based on a warfare/tactical point of view, you might want to read that again.

[kagato3]

Also the processes required to use these weapons require what I'll dub as core memory space for the lack of a better term. For Iona to take on the programing info for the SGC she had to severely down grade her sensor system while it is still better then most battle ships it is no where near the i400 or i402. This explains why the fog fleet can't do what CrazyPerson was asking in point 1. There is only room for one or the other and it doesn't look like it can just be downloaded from the fleet network.

[synx]

If Iona made her SGC, then why did Gunzou refer to it as "loot"? Unless that was a mistranslation.

[Tim yy]

Originally Posted by synx

If Iona made her SGC, then why did Gunzou refer to it as "loot"? Unless that was a mistranslation.

nope, how can they possibly call it a "loot" when Hyuuga was so willing to give everything she has to Iona. Now i'm actually glad, Iona "recreated" the SGC herself with the data they "cough" looted "cough". If that was Hyuuga's original cannon, and with that stuck in Iona all this time....man, the graphic implications, with a mere thought, Hyuuga would go ....

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Tim yy

nope, how can they possibly call it a "loot" when Hyuuga was so willing to give everything she has to Iona. Now i'm actually glad, Iona "recreated" the SGC herself with the data they "cough" looted "cough". If that was Hyuuga's original cannon, and with that stuck in Iona all this time....man, the graphic implications, with a mere thought, Hyuuga would go ....

I would advise you not to think too much about how Iona has been being repair then. Hyuuga did just replace 40 percet of her equipment. Of course her description of being sunk makes it clear Hyuuga is the bottom in the relationship.

[EadTaes]

Originally Posted by Tim yy

@EadTaes: what was the plot hole? That not every ship goes around with a SGC or a mirror ring system if they can just install the software and morph their nanomaterials?
You can read the part about the union core and their respective processing power to find out.
A lower ranked ship, light cruisers, destroyers simply do not have the processing power to operate weapons of that grade.
I-401 was a special case, and her SGC was heavily modified.
U-2051's mirror ring system was several magnitude smaller
Takao's SCG does not cause spatial distortion on a scale like Kirishima's
You have to note that inner workings of some of these weapons are a secrete even among the Fog.
Also, I think what was explained by 00idiot was more than enough to justify the plot based on a warfare/tactical point of view, you might want to read that again.

The plot hole will come from the fact that is now every fog vessel is now just one download away from a core refit. They might not have thought of the idea originally, but now that the cat is out of the bag, it would make the fog total idiots to not refit all ships blockading to refit to sensors to increase their range and make the blockade unpenetrable even to 401 and so on. Even if the version of this sensors, GCs, anti-GC defences, is weaker then that used on the larger ships.

You might then say well the fog doesn't think of such things and you would be totally right if you were talking about the pass, how ever mental models exist to learn tactics, and they have now just been taught the tactics of refits.

A clear example of mental models learning tactics is Takao, with he fight with 401 she did use an ingenious trick with 501 that nearly gave her victory. Then when she fought against U-2501 even though she was massively outnumbered, out gunned, and overloaded by he task of the decoy 401 she fought an extremely well played battle, she even realised one of her tactical mistakes when she comments that she stirred up the water to much.

So unless the fog starts showing this behaviour it will lead to this plot device to begin to unravel slowly and if they do use it it will turn the fog into overpowered even more probably making the vibration warhead useless. What Yamato fears will happen by humans catching up will/could be delayed by many more years to come now.

That's pretty much how I see this plot device starting to slowly crumble as time goes on.

[Tenzen12]

You might not noticed it but Hyuga is a bit technical genius, yet I-401 cannon was barely usable. SGC was incompatibile with systems Iona uses standartly and even though core create parts from nanomaterial it doesn't means these will work correctly together when you messing with it.

Tunning fog submarine is same like tunning cars or computers.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by EadTaes

The plot hole will come from the fact that is now every fog vessel is now just one download away from a core refit. They might not have thought of the idea originally, but now that the cat is out of the bag, it would make the fog total idiots to not refit all ships blockading to refit to sensors to increase their range and make the blockade unpenetrable even to 401 and so on. Even if the version of this sensors, GCs, anti-GC defences, is weaker then that used on the larger ships.

You might then say well the fog doesn't think of such things and you would be totally right if you were talking about the pass, how ever mental models exist to learn tactics, and they have now just been taught the tactics of refits.

A clear example of mental models learning tactics is Takao, with he fight with 401 she did use an ingenious trick with 501 that nearly gave her victory. Then when she fought against U-2501 even though she was massively outnumbered, out gunned, and overloaded by he task of the decoy 401 she fought an extremely well played battle, she even realised one of her tactical mistakes when she comments that she stirred up the water to much.

So unless the fog starts showing this behaviour it will lead to this plot device to begin to unravel slowly and if they do use it it will turn the fog into overpowered even more probably making the vibration warhead useless. What Yamato fears will happen by humans catching up will/could be delayed by many more years to come now.

That's pretty much how I see this plot device starting to slowly crumble as time goes on.

What you are suggesting is extremely inefficient. First the ship you are suggesting to upgrade will have to purge some other core system to make memory space for those new sensors so which do you chose to drop your armerment, your defenses or engines? Or since you have a fleet do you leave these duties to the specialist ships like the i501 or the i400 class. Iona needed go be refit because she doesn't have a support fleet and much of that was used on last ditch weapons to be used when there was no other options..

[EadTaes]

Saying that refitting them selves in such a way would automatically mean turning other systems off assumes that the light cruisers and lower are all operation at max or near max output already.

In addition I did not say that they would be anywhere near as effective as their originals, but it would be an improvement over the standard capabilities. That is all.

[kagato3]

The cruisers have been started to have lower capacity then even the subs they don't even seem to have the ablity to make mental models Maya was treating hers as children. Fog mind set would be to make cores to the level of use anything more is a waste of resources that would be illogical to a machine intelligence. As it stands mental models noticeably reduce a ships abilities for direct system capabilities but the insight they give is deemed to make up for it. Sensors and gravity cannons are very prosser and aperertly memory heavy any meaningful gains would decrease the operation of their primary function.

[synx]

Originally Posted by kagato3

The cruisers have been started to have lower capacity then even the subs they don't even seem to have the ablity to make mental models Maya was treating hers as children. Fog mind set would be to make cores to the level of use anything more is a waste of resources that would be illogical to a machine intelligence. As it stands mental models noticeably reduce a ships abilities for direct system capabilities but the insight they give is deemed to make up for it. Sensors and gravity cannons are very prosser and aperertly memory heavy any meaningful gains would decrease the operation of their primary function.

Maya is a little... odd.

And you guys want plot hole, how about the whole "humanity can't even touch a Fog torpedo boat without the vibration torpedo" bit from Kamikage. Then 20 chapters later, we see Takao slaughtering the Seehund with conventional torpedoes. That was very wtf-inducing.

[Tranhieu]

Originally Posted by synx

Maya is a little... odd.

And you guys want plot hole, how about the whole "humanity can't even touch a Fog torpedo boat without the vibration torpedo" bit from Kamikage. Then 20 chapters later, we see Takao slaughtering the Seehund with conventional torpedoes. That was very wtf-inducing.

I see no problem with that. Those Seehunds are just minion submarines and I doubt they are as powerful as torpedo boats. The problem is their wolfpack tactic that proves difficult when it's exercised with a large number of seehunds.

[DLRevan]

Originally Posted by EadTaes

Saying that refitting them selves in such a way would automatically mean turning other systems off assumes that the light cruisers and lower are all operation at max or near max output already.

In addition I did not say that they would be anywhere near as effective as their originals, but it would be an improvement over the standard capabilities. That is all.

But they are apparently already running at their maximum capacity already...as evidenced many times.

And that they haven't made such changes is already proof that that making such changes would be inefficient. You forget that they operate as a fleet. For example, why would it make sense for a a light cruiser to install a patch for battleship grade sensors that would be a burden on its Core resources and probably require reconfiguration of the systems on the ship (weapons maybe, possibly even defenses and propulsion) to have enough nanomaterial....when it's an escort for a battleship anyway? Add that to the fact that whatever Blue Steel were doing with Iona's systems, it was almost definitely unorthodox procedure. In fact, the only reason Iona may have been able to have such a path was because she has a human crew to reduce processing stress on her systems.

This is like wondering why doesn't the US Navy install strike missile capability into it's supercarriers. They could certainly incorporate such things at relatively low cost to space and tonnage, and the stability of the ship is very conducive for vertical launch systems. But why bother when a carrier group will have at least 4 ships with strike missile capability? They don't even have active sonar installed, again for the same reason.

[Tim yy]

Originally Posted by synx

Maya is a little... odd.

And you guys want plot hole, how about the whole "humanity can't even touch a Fog torpedo boat without the vibration torpedo" bit from Kamikage. Then 20 chapters later, we see Takao slaughtering the Seehund with conventional torpedoes. That was very wtf-inducing.

Those are standard Fog torpedoes, and they are guided by Takao....seahounds are just like decoy subs Iona made, they don't even have waveforce armor.

@EadTaes

The plot hole will come from the fact that is now every fog vessel is now just one download away from a core refit.

There is no indication that Fog vessels are upgrading themselves without human assistance. Each ship's core is unique, I don't know what "core refit" means?

they have now just been taught the tactics of refits.

Again who's "they?"
Only three fog ships mentioned or seen to have modifications (by humans), that is I-401, U-2051 and Musashi. I'm sure you can notice what those ships have in common.

it will turn the fog into overpowered even more probably making the vibration warhead useless. What Yamato fears will happen by humans catching up will/could be delayed by many more years to come now....That's pretty much how I see this plot device starting to slowly crumble as time goes on.

None of the "main" plot development point to a future that Humans and the Fog will destroy one or the another. As of now, both sides are improving at a similar pace, Fog had a head start, but humans are born with more flexibility, Human are learning to use fog weaponry, and Fog MMs are learning human tactics. The conflict b/w the two will last for a long time, not just physical fights, but through politics, or even from personal feelings. I strongly suggest you don't limit yourself to just the fights when reading the manga, you should look at the grand scheme of things to really grasp where the plot is leading us to.

[D-Joe]

More chapter 51 pictures
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2731470343?pn=2

Spoiler for About Hyuuga:

[DLRevan]

I wonder if its like looking at your arm after it's been chopped off for her.