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Old 2009-11-03, 15:26   Link #3981
Marion
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Why would Kanon kill Jessica. I doubt he would just kill her, when he was shown in a magic scene to be protecting her.
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Old 2009-11-03, 15:30   Link #3982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Why would Kanon kill Jessica. I doubt he would just kill her, when he was shown in a magic scene to be protecting her.
Because all that stuff about having a crush on her was a lie? It's certainly possible...

But I will agree it was more likely that he was killed trying to protect her from Nanjo or Genji...
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Old 2009-11-03, 15:31   Link #3983
Marion
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Because all that stuff about having a crush on her was a lie? It's certainly possible...

But I will agree it was more likely that he was killed trying to protect her from Nanjo or Genji...
What would be the purpose to lie about having a crush on her? It's not like he benefits from lying about liking her - if anything he gets a disadvantage because Natsuhi would (and obviously is) against such a relationship.
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Old 2009-11-03, 15:32   Link #3984
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
What would be the purpose to lie about having a crush on her? It's not like he benefits from lying about liking her - if anything he gets a disadvantage because Natsuhi would (and obviously is) against such a relationship.
I mean the story is lying to us. The first parts of Ep2 are entirely magic scenes, for the most part...
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Old 2009-11-03, 15:48   Link #3985
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If Kanon really dodged the red text by discarding his name in Jessica's room, then how did he get out of the room afterwards? At the time of the discovery of Jessica's corpse, the only people in the room were Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo. No one was hiding.

If we assume he killed Jessica, then he's pretty much trapped. Jessica had his master key, so there was no way to lock the door behind him after leaving the room, and the windows only lock from the inside. For this theory to work, someone else must have relocked the door or window after Kanon left.

On the other hand, if we assume he wasn't involved in Jessica's death, then by the same logic he must have been outside the room when the crime occurred, since he wasn't locked inside by the killer. But why would he leave her alone with a killer on the loose?
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Old 2009-11-03, 16:09   Link #3986
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His body is still not in the room. So he did leave the room...one way or another.
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Old 2009-11-03, 16:13   Link #3987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Because all that stuff about having a crush on her was a lie? It's certainly possible...

But I will agree it was more likely that he was killed trying to protect her from Nanjo or Genji...
Or Rosa.

I believe Jessica died protecting Kanon, by jumping in front of the bullet. Kanon was shot moments later, and perhaps the killer then moved his body such as to scapegoat him. Someone then staked the corpse of Jessica, locked the door and painted the design on her door. The motive of this murder could very possibly be suspicion.

It's possible that those scenes of Kanon liking Jessica was a lie. However, the scene of George proposing to Shannon may be a lie. The scene of the siblings tormenting Krauss in the parlor may be a lie. We could just as well make ourselves blind to everything that does not involve Battler's presence in the immediate area.
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Old 2009-11-03, 16:15   Link #3988
Workworkwork
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
His body is still not in the room. So he did leave the room...one way or another.
Simple. He disappeared, right?

Kanon's body was burned to ash.
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Old 2009-11-03, 16:16   Link #3989
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It's possible that those scenes of Kanon liking Jessica was a lie. However, the scene of George proposing to Shannon may be a lie. The scene of the siblings tormenting Krauss in the parlor may be a lie. We could just as well make ourselves blind to everything that does not involve Battler's presence in the immediate area.
I agree. And wasn't it said "Without love the trth cannot be seen"?
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Old 2009-11-03, 16:18   Link #3990
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Kitsu, that's an EP5 spoiler.
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Old 2009-11-03, 16:19   Link #3991
Ithekro
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Can't burn a human body to ash in Jessica's room...not without starting a fire in said room. Even then the only place people's bodies have been burned (the boiler room), the bodies haven't been turned to ash...since Kinzo's body is intact enough to identify...somewhat. It isn't a quality incinerator that deliveres an urn sized lump of ash.
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Old 2009-11-03, 16:27   Link #3992
Kitsu
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Kitsu, that's an EP5 spoiler.
It isn't. It is said in the Opening and by Okonogi in Ep 4, at least if not in more instances
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Old 2009-11-03, 16:32   Link #3993
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But claiming it is an ep5 spoiler makes it one >.> Even if it wouldn't have been already. Thanks a lot

Though it's kind of vague enough it doesn't really matter I guess.
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Old 2009-11-03, 16:34   Link #3994
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Someone keeps hiding Kanon's corpse after he dies. What is the purpose of doing this? I think reason is that the real culprit(s) want to frame Kanon as the culprit. That's not to say he is not entirely uninvolved himself.
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Old 2009-11-03, 16:44   Link #3995
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Why frame Kanon? He's no more a potential killer than Gohda. Most people know nothing about his personality as he keeps it close to his chest most of the time. Framing Kanon doesn't really seem all that useful, at least no more than framing anyone else. And other people have a much better motive; I'd rather frame Eva than frame Kanon, as we know Eva has things she wants (recognition, money). Kanon, at least on the surface, does not appear to really want or need anything.

We have to look at it:

Ep1: Kanon may not have even died here. There are a ton of reasons why this could've been faked that don't involve him being a culprit or being framed as one (and saying he died makes it hard to frame him). Maybe he really was attacked, and while he survived, he was weak. So Nanjo and Jessica agreed they'd lie so that the killer would not go target Kanon again, hoping maybe Kanon could remember something later. Maybe they mistakenly thought he really was dead.

Ep2: Kanon's disappearance and the later "Kanon story" do seem to be an attempt to shift suspicion his way. But that could be coincidence, since he happened to be with Jessica when they were killed (or so we think anyway). Alternately, maybe he really did survive, and killed someone who tried to kill him. Killing to avenge Jessica's murder and his own near death would certainly make him a killer, but he wouldn't necessarily be committing murder...

Ep3: Kanon dies right off. No attempt is made to suspect him at all.

Ep4: Kanon's body is the only one not found by Battler. But there's no indication that if a body exists, Battler would find it. Why is it unusual that Battler would miss a body somewhere? It's a big house, he's not familiar with it, and there are places that Kanon's body could've wound up that Battler had no access to. Just because he never locates Kanon doesn't mean he really seems to suspect him, nor does it make Kanon suspicious. And even if it did, we know he was the ninth victim, which means if he killed anybody, there were 8 or so other people he definitely didn't kill.
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Old 2009-11-03, 16:54   Link #3996
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If someone's corpse is missing then there is no way to confirm if that person is really dead or still alive.

They did find his corpse in episode 3 so mabye this is the exception.
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Old 2009-11-03, 16:57   Link #3997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Why frame Kanon? He's no more a potential killer than Gohda. Most people know nothing about his personality as he keeps it close to his chest most of the time. Framing Kanon doesn't really seem all that useful, at least no more than framing anyone else. And other people have a much better motive; I'd rather frame Eva than frame Kanon, as we know Eva has things she wants (recognition, money). Kanon, at least on the surface, does not appear to really want or need anything.
You can't say that for sure yet. We know nothing about him.
Although if you applied that one theory where Kanon is faking his death so he could try and stop the murders, it would make sense for the culprit to have some resentment for him and thus try to frame him. Or maybe it's a personal matter. It's nigh impossible to answer this without knowing who the culprit actually is.
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Old 2009-11-03, 17:14   Link #3998
Ithekro
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There is also the theory that Ep3 was when the main plot went wrong. The original culprit(s) were killed during the first Twilight (or perhaps the second). If this is the case, then the cuplrit originally what one of eight people...and Maria is the hardest to believe in...just because of her age and body structure. And since one of those remaining seven is dead (Kinzo) that leaves six people that could be the original culprit....Genji, Gohda, Kumasawa, Rosa, Shannon, and Kanon. Of these two are, reused, in the story (Kanon and Shannon) via Beatrice even though they are confirmed dead in red.

Ep3 seems to either be someone caught the original culprit burning Kinzo's body, The real First Twilight victum fought back and managed to kill the attackers, and/or paranoia sets in and the remaining family members start accussing each other of the murders and start killing each other...or enact their own plans because of the First Twilight.

The thought that Ep3 is an instance were the culprit is killed does make Kanon look bad in the other arcs. Either he is a culprit, or he knows what is going on. Thus it is possible that the mastermind ordered him killed because he was going against their interests, or maybe Kanon wanted out...or wanted more....but then symbolically he would have been stabbed with Greed, rather than Wrath.

Pondering: Do the stakes represent the reason the person was killed (their own sin), or the reason the killer killed them (the killer sin verses the victim)...or the emotion in play when the murder happened?
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Old 2009-11-03, 23:31   Link #3999
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
There is also the theory that Ep3 was when the main plot went wrong. The original culprit(s) were killed during the first Twilight (or perhaps the second). If this is the case, then the cuplrit originally what one of eight people...and Maria is the hardest to believe in...just because of her age and body structure. And since one of those remaining seven is dead (Kinzo) that leaves six people that could be the original culprit....Genji, Gohda, Kumasawa, Rosa, Shannon, and Kanon. Of these two are, reused, in the story (Kanon and Shannon) via Beatrice even though they are confirmed dead in red.
Even Shannon and Kanon, and even Maria were culprits, there still need to be some other culprits to carry on the remaining murders. You may say someone else have taken the stakes from the original culprits and carry on the epigraph. But this act was not rational for outsiders, first using stake as weapons were inferior to using shotguns, second shooting at the stomach was stupid than shooting both stomach and in the head, third is stabbing stakes took time, why wasting time from the outsiders' point of view. For any outsider to use the epigraph, the only reasonable motive would be to frighten the survivors and frame Beatrice as culprits. The drawing of magical circle on parlor's door (in George's case) again implied that someone else must be familiar with the original plan, instead of an impromptu act.

In short, someone else must be culprits outside the 1st and 2rd twilight must be one of the original culprits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Why frame Kanon? He's no more a potential killer than Gohda. Most people know nothing about his personality as he keeps it close to his chest most of the time. Framing Kanon doesn't really seem all that useful, at least no more than framing anyone else. And other people have a much better motive; I'd rather frame Eva than frame Kanon, as we know Eva has things she wants (recognition, money). Kanon, at least on the surface, does not appear to really want or need anything.
Let's say the culprit did not dump Kanon's body somewhere, then Rosa's logical response would be to target Gohda and Kumasawa as culprits since they were the "only" people with no alibi at that time (Genji and Shannon were having no alibi as well, but Rosa hid it). Then probably Rosa would exact surveillance on these two people to separate the "sheep and wolves". This would pose difficulty on executing following murders since these two suspects were probably under watch.

So a simple solution was to dump Kanon's body somewhere and this facilitated the latter murders by putting all the crimes on the "missing Kanon". That's the reason for framing Kanon. (in fact, Jessica's body or the six bodies in the 1st twilight would be dumped instead, but I think Jessica was a less convincing culprit than Kanon, and the sixes involves survivors' parents which made them implausible murderers as well, at least from the point of view of Battler, George and Jessica). I guess Gohda's body would be dumped if he was in Jessica's room instead of Kanon when the culprit came.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Again, this only really works in Japanese. How else do you get redundant statements like "people die when they are killed"?
I looked it up in the Japanese dictionary but don't find the verb "殺す" much different from English verb "kill", both meaning to take life from someone. (Definition 1: 他人や生き物の生命を絶つ。命を取る。Definition 2: 自分ではどうすることもできないで、死に至らせる。死なせる。 Both definitions entail death). How does it work in Japanese? I don't understand.

In your theory, who tried to kill Kanon? Genji? Then why didn't Kanon try to kill Genji back? Why Shannon did not kill Genji when she knew Genji was the murderer, assuming Kanon told the murderer of Jessica? Or do you prefer Rosa as murderer of Jessica? Wasn't it as Rosa was with Battler all the time since the chapel? Or you say Nanjo killed Jessica? Still impossible. Then why and how would Kanon know Nanjo was in Rosa's plan? Or maybe you choose Shannon as murderer as well? Shannon and Genji killed Kanon when he came back and also slaughtered Nanjo and Kumasawa for hearing the truth, Gohda's life was preserved to make them less suspicious? Not a bad choice in this case. Just too cruel to believe in.

I have a theory which does not involve Kanon, Shannon or Gohda or twisting the meaning of the red texts though.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-04 at 00:10.
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Old 2009-11-03, 23:46   Link #4000
Ithekro
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Which means that either the new culprit found a note of the original plan to base things off of, or added their own style to what the culprits were doing when they were caught/killed during the First or Second Twilights. Wasn't the magic circle already on the parlor door from when Shannon was killed? All that was added were the numbers.

As for the stakes...one wonders if that was from the orignal plan, or if there was someone else doing that as they found the bodies? The epitath, if used to make the murders seem ritualistic still, says "gouge"...so the stakes fit that purpose, but not the "kill" part.

Meaning not only are there more than one culprit, but two seperate plots. Or the culprit's manpower is low thus the murders and rituals are getting sloppy in how they are done...but still being effective at killing people.

Though by Ep4, we "should" have enough information to solve the "Who, how, and why" at least for the murders. I'm wondering if anyone reading the translation has yet...or if we, like Battler, are letting ourselves get blinded by Family ties.
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