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Old 2011-06-05, 19:02   Link #31141
RadiantBeam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
The phrasing kind of falls apart here, because "crash and burn" is not one word. In addition, from a grammatical standpoint, you should use double-quotes (") rather than single-quotes (') and periods always go inside of quotation marks*.
Admittedly, it was the best I could think of to try and describe Vivio's mindset, even though it doesn't completely fit what I was trying to go for. But it was the best description I could think of to really sort of describe what she was thinking at this point. And oh, um, they do? I've seen it vary depending on who does the writing...

Quote:
Some days? I didn't realize there had been a delay between the end of "Sunrise" and the start of LDG...I must read these things more closely.
There's only a day or two so lapse, so it's not very major.

Quote:
Meanwhile, I'm intrigued by the fact that Vivio hadn't been able to start thinking things through on her own. "Live as if nothing had happened" seems a very strange thing for her to do, given that, well, quite a lot happened, not only in terms of revelations about Lutecia's life, and in her own feelings about Lutecia, but also in what it meant for her in terms of her relationship with Nanoha and Fate (given that neither of them had any idea about Lutecia's NSIS status and the fact that they, especially Nanoha, have pretty strong opinions about it all; the fact that Nanoha [/I]hadn't apparently sat Vivio down for a long, long talk about Lutecia and where things were going from there is one reason why I didn't pick up on the fact that there had been some time between the two stories).

Of course, that might just be a writer's reason for justifying why Vivio is coming into
this scene "cold," as it were.
Pretty much. I can adjust it if it really seems glaringly out of character, but my thought was that at this point, Vivio hasn't really had the chance to do much exploration on the topic, and things are still sort of touchy with her and Nanoha, so she doesn't want to stir up the wasp's nest again, so to speak.

Quote:
I'm not sure that this is necessarily a question of "emotion vs. logic" so much as it is "reacting vs. acting." That is, in "Shadow," Vivio is purely reacting to what she sees in front of her--Lutecia's emotional crisis. But so long as she just keeps treating the symptoms, and not actually looking at the source of the problems--that is, taking her own course of action to attack the real, underlying issues--nothing will really ever get solved. So she's actually thinking clearly and looking at the situation, but I think mislabeling it.
Watch this. It'll come back to bite her.

Quote:
Not 100% following this part. I can see why Vivio wouldn't want to provoke Lutecia into Spilling All, whatever "All" may be, in front of Victor, Chrono, Nanoha, and Fate. I'm not quite sure what "had never been that kind of person, anyway" means, though. I mean, I thought Vivio was exactly the kind of person who wanted to get right to the heart of things and was big on honest and open communication about feelings, Nanoha-like. Or do you mean, "that kind of person" in terms of "someone who uses another's vulnerable moments to get them to reveal parts of themselves," which I can see why you'd say Vivio isn't such a person. But it needs a little better definition.
Damn, what I meant didn't come across as clearly as I'd hoped it would. What I meant by saying Vivio 'isn't that kind of person' is that she's not the type to take advantage of someone in emotional distress and turmoil to try and get her own answers out of it. For example, she could certainly press the right buttons on Lutecia now, when she's open and raw and hurting, and get pretty much everything out of her that she could ever want to know; but she won't because she isn't like that. I might need to reword that section a bit, if it isn't coming across as clearly as I'd intended.

EDIT: Pageclaim for critique!
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Old 2011-06-05, 19:15   Link #31142
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Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
...I disagree on both additional counts. (Or all three; it feels more like style than grammar)

Periods always go inside of quotation marks when the quote is a complete sentence. Less than that, and you can find it either way. Personally, I don't put the period inside something that's a fragmented quote. It makes no sense (the period is in no way associated with the quotation), and few people remember that rule.

Single quotes are proper for emphasis or highlighting terms. Though as a style choice I'd probably have used italics.
*cracks knuckles* Going to have to cite your sources on that, mi amigo, because I'd strongly disagree.

The rule is, "periods and commas go inside closing quotation marks." (The St. Martin's Handbook, 3rd Edition, p. 504, St. Martin's Press, 1995) As a matter of usage, I've seen it done the other way all over the place; I agree that people don't know the correct usage (I myself didn't even encounter the rule until Advance Legal Writing as a law-school third-year), but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it right when you do know the rule. The ones who don't know won't care, and the ones who do know will spot it when it's wrong.

The same source (pp.499-500) notes that "In American English...single quotation marks enclose a quotation within a quotation." Double quotations are used otherwise, even for titles and definitions (p. 502) and ironical usage and coinages (p. 503). I do note that Wikipedia agrees with you in that it considers the single/double quote usage not a fast rule but a stylistic point between American and British English, though.

I agree that italics for emphasis would work just as well as quotation marks for ironical usage in those sentences (actually, quotation marks should never be used for highlighting terms), and probably better, though.
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Old 2011-06-05, 19:44   Link #31143
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
*cracks knuckles* Going to have to cite your sources on that, mi amigo, because I'd strongly disagree.
...Are you threatening me?

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
The rule is, "periods and commas go inside closing quotation marks." (The St. Martin's Handbook, 3rd Edition, p. 504, St. Martin's Press, 1995) As a matter of usage, I've seen it done the other way all over the place; I agree that people don't know the correct usage (I myself didn't even encounter the rule until Advance Legal Writing as a law-school third-year), but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it right when you do know the rule. The ones who don't know won't care, and the ones who do know will spot it when it's wrong.
You're thinking like a non-fiction writer. When writing non-fiction, the rules of the area in which you are working - I'll go out on a limb and say you're used to Law - are immutable. But that's not true in fiction. In fiction, it's generally a question of style. As far as punctuation is concerned, I believe that whenever it's a direct speaking quote, the rule works like you say, as that's what the character said. But if a character or the narrator is thinking about something short that somebody said, it might be in the middle of the sentence.

Like if we were having this argument in fiction, and you came back making fun of the concept that I've introduced about "style"... you'd quote it, but probably not put the punctuation inside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
The same source (pp.499-500) notes that "In American English...single quotation marks enclose a quotation within a quotation." Double quotations are used otherwise, even for titles and definitions (p. 502) and ironical usage and coinages (p. 503). I do note that Wikipedia agrees with you in that it considers the single/double quote usage not a fast rule but a stylistic point between American and British English, though.

I agree that italics for emphasis would work just as well as quotation marks for ironical usage in those sentences (actually, quotation marks should never be used for highlighting terms), and probably better, though.
In fiction, there are lots of things that are more like style than grammar. Things that not only feel acceptable, but I've seen in various books I've read - some better than others.

You're a hardcore Prescriptivist, aren't you?

And there's no style guide for fiction writing. So there are no relevant sources to cite. Only opinion and experience.

(And... I've never actually heard of your stylebook >_< Is it pointed at Law students?)
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Old 2011-06-05, 19:47   Link #31144
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...Are you threatening me?
If he is, I need a minute to set up the betting pool.
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Old 2011-06-05, 19:52   Link #31145
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If he is, I need a minute to set up the betting pool.
Count me out of this one. I have a vested interest in both parties coming out intact.
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Old 2011-06-05, 19:56   Link #31146
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Spoiler for MD returns!:
Uh-oh... Seikou saw a picture and said nothing yet, but Yami is going to ask for an explanation... Let's hope Yuuno will be back by then.

Or worse, she's going to decide the Wolkens should be hers or to make her own knight group.
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Old 2011-06-05, 20:23   Link #31147
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Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
...Are you threatening me?
Only in an Internet-argumentative sense...

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You're thinking like a non-fiction writer. When writing non-fiction, the rules of the area in which you are working - I'll go out on a limb and say you're used to Law - are immutable. But that's not true in fiction. In fiction, it's generally a question of style. As far as punctuation is concerned, I believe that whenever it's a direct speaking quote, the rule works like you say, as that's what the character said. But if a character or the narrator is thinking about something short that somebody said, it might be in the middle of the sentence.

Like if we were having this argument in fiction, and you came back making fun of the concept that I've introduced about "style"... you'd quote it, but probably not put the punctuation inside.
Well...no, I wouldn't, because the period would either be omitted entirely or replaced by a comma.

But on to relevant on-topic matters, it's true that a wide variety of fiction writers make stylistic choices to write in very, very ungrammatical ways. But those choices aren't made out of an ignorance of grammatical rules, but in order to make specific artistic points by choosing to violate them. And if you don't know what the rules are, you can't make those points. When Nyx Smith chooses to write Shadowrun novels in the present tense, he's expressing something about the way he wants to present his story, whether it represents the immediacy of the action in a near-future hypertech setting or whether he just likes the way it sounds. But he's a professional author who submitted his work to professional editors and justified those choices to them on that kind of basic. When a fourteen-year-old kid writing fanfiction does it because he didn't pay attention in English class, it means something very different.

In other words, the rules don't change. The ability to violate those rules as a matter of style changes.

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You're a hardcore Prescriptivist, aren't you?
Pretty much, yes. It comes from writing in law. When I have to construct a document where X needs to mean exactly X and not Y or Z, and in which if a problem erupts there'll be an expert on the other side claiming that X does in fact mean Z and that if my client had meant to say X then he would have put a comma or a preposition somewhere else...yeah, attention to rules of language (and rules of construction) is pretty much vital.

(Obviously, usage differs widely and over time can actually redefine the rules...for example, how many times does the slang term "fic" get used here in this thread? But nonetheless...yes, I am. I mean, I type in complete sentences and spell out words on the Internet! How Prescriptivist is that? )

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And there's no style guide for fiction writing. So there are no relevant sources to cite. Only opinion and experience.

(And... I've never actually heard of your stylebook >_< Is it pointed at Law students?)
Nope, college students generally; it happened to be the one used at UT Austin. (I always cite it since other people will have other style guides, and the glory of the English language is that the experts--to say nothing of the actual users--don't always agree.)

But ultimately, I disagree with your fundamental assertion that there's no style guide for fiction. Fiction, just like non-fiction, is communication in a chosen language, and languages have rules. If you choose to step outside those rules for whatever reason, then you should know you're doing it and have a reason for doing it. Consider, for example, the plethora of books out there these days published by the vanity press in which nobody's looked at them as an editor or proofreader and the writer never knew what they were doing in the first place. Is the reader going to think the misplaced periods, sentence fragments, unusual capitalization, paragraphs split in the middle of sentences, misspellings, and misuse of words as "style," or are they going to say that this person needs an editor?

Applying this logic to the specific case of RadiantBeam's story; as a general rule she uses periods, commas, quotation marks, etc. in the fashion prescribed by American English usage. Thus when she deviates from that in a couple of places, I assume that she wanted to use them properly and either didn't know what the rule was or had just typoed, ergo I pointed it out.
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Old 2011-06-05, 20:30   Link #31148
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Guys, can't we all just get along?
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Old 2011-06-05, 20:36   Link #31149
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Guys, can't we all just get along?
If we did, there would be no internet.
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Old 2011-06-05, 20:37   Link #31150
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If we did, there would be no internet.
I meant here in this thread only. Usually we do a pretty good job of it; what the hell happened?
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Old 2011-06-05, 20:42   Link #31151
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Red 1-30

Spoiler for Blood That Flows - Red 31:
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Old 2011-06-05, 20:44   Link #31152
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Only in an Internet-argumentative sense...
I have a hard time debating friends. Please don't make it any harder than it already is.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Well...no, I wouldn't, because the period would either be omitted entirely or replaced by a comma.

But on to relevant on-topic matters, it's true that a wide variety of fiction writers make stylistic choices to write in very, very ungrammatical ways. But those choices aren't made out of an ignorance of grammatical rules, but in order to make specific artistic points by choosing to violate them. And if you don't know what the rules are, you can't make those points. When Nyx Smith chooses to write Shadowrun novels in the present tense, he's expressing something about the way he wants to present his story, whether it represents the immediacy of the action in a near-future hypertech setting or whether he just likes the way it sounds. But he's a professional author who submitted his work to professional editors and justified those choices to them on that kind of basic. When a fourteen-year-old kid writing fanfiction does it because he didn't pay attention in English class, it means something very different.

In other words, the rules don't change. The ability to violate those rules as a matter of style changes.
Rules do change, but I wasn't intending on making a distinction between Prescriptivists and Descriptivists and Linguistics here.

I have actually read somewhere (What, I was supposed to prepare for this debate?) that present tense is the best way to tell stories, and the piece then spelled out why they thought that way. It comes down to the fact that there are style choices to make. Tense and viewpoint are particularly common ones.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Pretty much, yes. It comes from writing in law. When I have to construct a document where X needs to mean exactly X and not Y or Z, and in which if a problem erupts there'll be an expert on the other side claiming that X does in fact mean Z and that if my client had meant to say X then he would have put a comma or a preposition somewhere else...yeah, attention to rules of language (and rules of construction) is pretty much vital.

(Obviously, usage differs widely and over time can actually redefine the rules...for example, how many times does the slang term "fic" get used here in this thread? But nonetheless...yes, I am. I mean, I type in complete sentences and spell out words on the Internet! How Prescriptivist is that? )
By that definition, I'm a Prescriptivist too. And I work in an environment that's stricter than yours as far as grammar and usage is concerned. Because if I deviate, I create a bug in the best case, and it doesn't even compile in the worst. But that's not what we're talking about, is it?

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Nope, college students generally; it happened to be the one used at UT Austin. (I always cite it since other people will have other style guides, and the glory of the English language is that the experts--to say nothing of the actual users--don't always agree.)

But ultimately, I disagree with your fundamental assertion that there's no style guide for fiction. Fiction, just like non-fiction, is communication in a chosen language, and languages have rules. If you choose to step outside those rules for whatever reason, then you should know you're doing it and have a reason for doing it. Consider, for example, the plethora of books out there these days published by the vanity press in which nobody's looked at them as an editor or proofreader and the writer never knew what they were doing in the first place. Is the reader going to think the misplaced periods, sentence fragments, unusual capitalization, paragraphs split in the middle of sentences, misspellings, and misuse of words as "style," or are they going to say that this person needs an editor?
It's about choices. Either you're misinterpreting me in a small way or we agree on a point: You need to know the rules first. But in my fiction writing, I break the rules that don't make any sense.

Like, two spaces after a period is still a "rule" according to some guides. And it's really dumb on modern computers to continue to do that.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Applying this logic to the specific case of RadiantBeam's story; as a general rule she uses periods, commas, quotation marks, etc. in the fashion prescribed by American English usage. Thus when she deviates from that in a couple of places, I assume that she wanted to use them properly and either didn't know what the rule was or had just typoed, ergo I pointed it out.
Why you pointed it out is fair: If she's going to do that, it's best if she knows all of the nuance involved.

But if I ended up with short word/phrase in quotes like that, I'd punctuate outside. This is particularly true with question marks, by the way. If the quote is a question, it's inside; if the questioner is using the quote as part of the question and the quote is not a question itself, I will forever maintain that the mark goes outside.
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Old 2011-06-05, 20:49   Link #31153
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Guys, can't we all just get along?
Now, now, they mean well, Kuroi. Believe me, this isn't an argument in the least. It's just a fun debate between friends, is all.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Applying this logic to the specific case of RadiantBeam's story; as a general rule she uses periods, commas, quotation marks, etc. in the fashion prescribed by American English usage. Thus when she deviates from that in a couple of places, I assume that she wanted to use them properly and either didn't know what the rule was or had just typoed, ergo I pointed it out.
Admittedly, I don't know what the rule is, because I wasn't taught much of anything about it. So I'm supposed to put the mark over the period, too? I might just make it in italics instead to drive the point home, but I'm curious so that if I try to ever use it again, I don't mess it up like I did this time.
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Old 2011-06-05, 20:54   Link #31154
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Spoiler for MD returns!:
I see they're all getting ready for the upcoming battle in various ways, intentional or not.

Nice jab at a certain pairing at the end there
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Old 2011-06-05, 21:54   Link #31155
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Red 1-30

Spoiler for Blood That Flows - Red 31:
The only thing I can say is that Chrono got lucky .
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Old 2011-06-06, 00:27   Link #31156
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Red 1-30

Spoiler for Blood That Flows - Red 31:
In any other situation/story this would have been a very sad moment. Seemingly upcoming father of at least two sent out on dangerous, practically suicidal, mission.
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Old 2011-06-06, 00:39   Link #31157
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I think that depends. If by Maximum Pain Infliction you mean "Here comes a world of pain! WHAM!", I don't think that's her style. DC is the kind who would do it slow and methodical; first she'll pull out all toenails one at a time, then she'll cut each fingers row by row, then the skinning begins etc etc etc...(all without any anesthetics, of course)...and you could only watch in horror and scream as your lower body parts starts to disappear...
.....That sounds like a horror genre O_O....

I like my tragedy to be clearly devastating beyond the obvious level .

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...at which point you're either going to be avidly devouring every Shadowverse fic out there on your own, or completely sick of the whole concept. Syn's false light and deathcurse's (AU to the main 'Verse) Crime Never Sleeps are both excellent long fics to tackle at this point (you really can't go into them cold, but need some background knowledge of the Shadowverse to follow them).
Yeah , so first order of rewriting on draft #3 would be to include enough detail to have the fic stand alone somewhat. That, or have a massive 10 page Author's Note preceding it?

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deathcurse: I need to know if you have any plans for a 19 years old Vivio's military career in your HayatexVivio-verse. If not, I'll just go wild.

Also, I need to know what Vivio's military rank is at 15.
No plans so far...all I thought of was Vivio becoming a forward attacker kind of role, to fit in with her Strike Arts proficiency in Vivid. So her role at 15 is the "SWAT"-like special squad under Hayate's command in the City Defenses, and so they take care of major crimes/violence. I have no clue yet as to where Vivio would want to go after that (nor can I say too much without possibly spoiling "Prerogative of the Brave" ).

Her current rank would be no higher than 2nd Lieutenant or so.

Other than that, I have no clue yet, so it's a blank slate for you ^^.

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I'm glad to hear it, I was worried. ^^;;; Hopefully once I've shipped Lutecia off to Mau Gram and move her story there, it will be a little bit easier to focus on Vivio as an individual since with Lutecia gone, she now only needs to come to terms with the NSIS and Shadows as a whole, and not think so much on her girlfriend.
My initial thoughts about Lutecia going to Mau Gram was that it seemed a bit contrived, but after seeing your full explanation of why I can see that it's a good way of removing Lutecia from the picture so that Vivio can deal with the situation/new revelations without being influenced/distracted by the emotional aspects (or by being distracted by having to be the strong one in the relationship).

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If he is, I need a minute to set up the betting pool.
It gets even more fun with the knowledge that even academic papers/citation sources get it wrong sometimes, or that two different systems can have slight variations in rules .....so we may never know....
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Old 2011-06-06, 03:39   Link #31158
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I like my tragedy to be clearly devastating beyond the obvious level .
And that's why I gravitate towards you stories very much.

No, seriously.

It's not that I believe that True Art is Angsty!!! In fact, I can digest normal, subtle slice-in-the-life romance stories just fine. It's just nowadays in FF it seem so easy to find MSLN romance stories so sugary I got diabetes just by reading at the descriptions, so I might as well go to the other extreme.

...ok that's actually unfair for me, because titles and brief descriptions are often misleading BUTI'MSCAREDJUSTBYLOOKINGATTHEM!
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Old 2011-06-06, 07:20   Link #31159
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Red 1-30

Spoiler for Blood That Flows - Red 31:
A.Y.N. = Are You NUTS!?

make that A.Y.G.I = Are You Guys INSANE!? facing a revenge driven Mazoku...

well... well know that the cast's answer on that one... Let's the party begin!!!
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Old 2011-06-06, 08:31   Link #31160
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Red 1-30

Spoiler for Blood That Flows - Red 31:
Uh-huh, Chrono sure had a guts - to willingly take head the most powerfull Demon Lord of an entire plane.
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