2011-06-05, 19:02 | Link #31141 | |||||
Test Drive
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EDIT: Pageclaim for critique!
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2011-06-05, 19:15 | Link #31142 | |
Beta by Accident
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maine
Age: 52
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The rule is, "periods and commas go inside closing quotation marks." (The St. Martin's Handbook, 3rd Edition, p. 504, St. Martin's Press, 1995) As a matter of usage, I've seen it done the other way all over the place; I agree that people don't know the correct usage (I myself didn't even encounter the rule until Advance Legal Writing as a law-school third-year), but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it right when you do know the rule. The ones who don't know won't care, and the ones who do know will spot it when it's wrong. The same source (pp.499-500) notes that "In American English...single quotation marks enclose a quotation within a quotation." Double quotations are used otherwise, even for titles and definitions (p. 502) and ironical usage and coinages (p. 503). I do note that Wikipedia agrees with you in that it considers the single/double quote usage not a fast rule but a stylistic point between American and British English, though. I agree that italics for emphasis would work just as well as quotation marks for ironical usage in those sentences (actually, quotation marks should never be used for highlighting terms), and probably better, though. |
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2011-06-05, 19:44 | Link #31143 | |||
Explodes when thrown
IT Support
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 37
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Like if we were having this argument in fiction, and you came back making fun of the concept that I've introduced about "style"... you'd quote it, but probably not put the punctuation inside. Quote:
You're a hardcore Prescriptivist, aren't you? And there's no style guide for fiction writing. So there are no relevant sources to cite. Only opinion and experience. (And... I've never actually heard of your stylebook >_< Is it pointed at Law students?)
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2011-06-05, 19:56 | Link #31146 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Uh-oh... Seikou saw a picture and said nothing yet, but Yami is going to ask for an explanation... Let's hope Yuuno will be back by then.
Or worse, she's going to decide the Wolkens should be hers or to make her own knight group.
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2011-06-05, 20:23 | Link #31147 | |||
Beta by Accident
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maine
Age: 52
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Only in an Internet-argumentative sense...
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But on to relevant on-topic matters, it's true that a wide variety of fiction writers make stylistic choices to write in very, very ungrammatical ways. But those choices aren't made out of an ignorance of grammatical rules, but in order to make specific artistic points by choosing to violate them. And if you don't know what the rules are, you can't make those points. When Nyx Smith chooses to write Shadowrun novels in the present tense, he's expressing something about the way he wants to present his story, whether it represents the immediacy of the action in a near-future hypertech setting or whether he just likes the way it sounds. But he's a professional author who submitted his work to professional editors and justified those choices to them on that kind of basic. When a fourteen-year-old kid writing fanfiction does it because he didn't pay attention in English class, it means something very different. In other words, the rules don't change. The ability to violate those rules as a matter of style changes. Quote:
(Obviously, usage differs widely and over time can actually redefine the rules...for example, how many times does the slang term "fic" get used here in this thread? But nonetheless...yes, I am. I mean, I type in complete sentences and spell out words on the Internet! How Prescriptivist is that? ) Quote:
But ultimately, I disagree with your fundamental assertion that there's no style guide for fiction. Fiction, just like non-fiction, is communication in a chosen language, and languages have rules. If you choose to step outside those rules for whatever reason, then you should know you're doing it and have a reason for doing it. Consider, for example, the plethora of books out there these days published by the vanity press in which nobody's looked at them as an editor or proofreader and the writer never knew what they were doing in the first place. Is the reader going to think the misplaced periods, sentence fragments, unusual capitalization, paragraphs split in the middle of sentences, misspellings, and misuse of words as "style," or are they going to say that this person needs an editor? Applying this logic to the specific case of RadiantBeam's story; as a general rule she uses periods, commas, quotation marks, etc. in the fashion prescribed by American English usage. Thus when she deviates from that in a couple of places, I assume that she wanted to use them properly and either didn't know what the rule was or had just typoed, ergo I pointed it out. |
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2011-06-05, 20:44 | Link #31152 | ||||
Explodes when thrown
IT Support
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 37
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I have a hard time debating friends. Please don't make it any harder than it already is.
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I have actually read somewhere (What, I was supposed to prepare for this debate?) that present tense is the best way to tell stories, and the piece then spelled out why they thought that way. It comes down to the fact that there are style choices to make. Tense and viewpoint are particularly common ones. Quote:
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Like, two spaces after a period is still a "rule" according to some guides. And it's really dumb on modern computers to continue to do that. Quote:
But if I ended up with short word/phrase in quotes like that, I'd punctuate outside. This is particularly true with question marks, by the way. If the quote is a question, it's inside; if the questioner is using the quote as part of the question and the quote is not a question itself, I will forever maintain that the mark goes outside.
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2011-06-05, 20:49 | Link #31153 | |
Test Drive
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Now, now, they mean well, Kuroi. Believe me, this isn't an argument in the least. It's just a fun debate between friends, is all.
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2011-06-06, 00:27 | Link #31156 | |
Under Death by College
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Where you least expect me
Age: 30
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2011-06-06, 00:39 | Link #31157 | ||||
Queen of Tragedy
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Place of rocks and trees, and trees and rocks...and water.
Age: 33
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I like my tragedy to be clearly devastating beyond the obvious level . Quote:
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Her current rank would be no higher than 2nd Lieutenant or so. Other than that, I have no clue yet, so it's a blank slate for you ^^. Quote:
It gets even more fun with the knowledge that even academic papers/citation sources get it wrong sometimes, or that two different systems can have slight variations in rules .....so we may never know....
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2011-06-06, 03:39 | Link #31158 | |
Labda Prakarsa Nirwikara
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pekanbaru (UTC+07:00)
Age: 37
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No, seriously. It's not that I believe that True Art is Angsty!!! In fact, I can digest normal, subtle slice-in-the-life romance stories just fine. It's just nowadays in FF it seem so easy to find MSLN romance stories so sugary I got diabetes just by reading at the descriptions, so I might as well go to the other extreme. ...ok that's actually unfair for me, because titles and brief descriptions are often misleading BUTI'MSCAREDJUSTBYLOOKINGATTHEM!
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Last edited by Tiresias; 2011-06-06 at 04:01. Reason: D-don't get me wrong! It's not like I'm purposedly trying to make you churn out chapters quicker, okay?! |
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2011-06-06, 07:20 | Link #31159 | |
GregOS Offline
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Philippines
Age: 36
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make that A.Y.G.I = Are You Guys INSANE!? facing a revenge driven Mazoku... well... well know that the cast's answer on that one... Let's the party begin!!!
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authorshipping, befriending, fanfiction, interactive fanfiction, nanoha |
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