2006-12-25, 19:22 | Link #321 | |
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Taking your statement literally, truth and lies can decide if a person lives or dies. One quick example would be if you told a manic depressive with a history of suicide that their partner was cheating on them if they ask you (and you do know that they are being cheated on)
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2006-12-25, 19:26 | Link #322 | |
Photomancy Experiments
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Balanga City, Bataan, Philippines
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That statement was wrong, sorry... I was implying the opposite. I was saying it was that entity's right to decide, not yours. What I'm trying to put here is that the fact that Gin willed herself to live makes her qualified to learn the truth.
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2006-12-25, 19:34 | Link #323 | |
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
Join Date: Dec 2004
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More importantly who is the judge of this truth? Back to the topic, a lot of the Shinku hate is based on what Gin says. It's actually very hard to know what Shinku is planning or thinking. Lets take the statement "you can see father"... Is this a lie? No it is not. Why because we all know that Gin actually see's him more times then anyone else so far (as I believe that it was Rozen who revived her after S1 as I don't believe that Enju has the ability to create Rozen Maidens) So from the point of view of us as the viewer we know that Shinku does not lie as Gin indeeds meets Rozen at leasts 3 more times... Well each time after her death and she thinks that Shinku is the favorite???? Now lets pretend that Shinku was planning on becoming Alice, meeting father and then dragging his sorry arse over to see Gin... That would also means she has not lied as long as she can achieve it.... Truth and lies are in the eye of the beholder....
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2006-12-25, 19:38 | Link #324 | ||
~ You're dead ^__^* ~
Graphic Designer
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well there is a thing as being too kind...shinku trying to do whats best for gin isnt always whats best for gin herself thats the bottom line and shinku screwed it up >.< Quote:
yes hes a bastard but still i owe him one for creating gin sama (as much as i hate to )
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2006-12-25, 19:50 | Link #325 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: England
Age: 37
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2006-12-25, 20:39 | Link #327 |
Snobby Gentleman
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Monterrey, México
Age: 43
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So this is it for Overtüre. Although Suigintou's course of hatred is not commendable, nonetheless is understandable and verily justifiable.
Shinku indeed needs to reflect upon her choices of words and polish her heart to incline more towards empathy, than just keeping on schedule her manners and etiquette. Suigintou totally misunderstood Shinku's pity and that's not to be surprised about, because Suigintou's morale is extremely poor. She needs true love to keep herself on track or else her spirit collapses quite quickly, and the only way to fill her void is bent her hatred upon her sisters to make them as more miserable as possible than she is. Shinku should have betrayed her lady's stance and instead turn more emotional to aid Suigintou and prevent her from going astray. But had she done, then we wouldn't had the psycho and devious Suigintou that all of us love dearly. Suigintou needs love. |
2006-12-25, 20:45 | Link #328 | ||
Zetsubo-sensei daaaaaa !!
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Shinku had 2 choices in front of her, telling Gin the truth and broke the last hope she had or let her living in a happy dream because her life whould not last long... Yes, both are cruel in a hand but which one is the "less worse" ? And that's a point that makes RM's story very interesting and deep. Topics that are dealt with in this story match with some ethic problems in our society. In Traumend, Megu's case, for example, was an illustration of the euthanasia problem (people may have heard about that Italian man's death and the huge scandal created by the religious authorities). Here is an other one... do you have to tell the truth that would destroy someone if you can help him to spend the short days he has left peacefully and happily? Shinku made her decision... a decision that I can understand and I think that is unfair to blame her for that... Quote:
After all; the only rational one among the sisters is... -desu |
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2006-12-25, 22:10 | Link #329 |
Hmmm?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Brill, Tirisfal Glade
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After watching episode 2, I can finally understand where all that hatred stems from.
Imagine a person raising your hopes up, and then you had it crashing down. That was what Suigintou hime-sama felt. Sometimes, while the 'truth' (which was true before Suigintou received her Roza Mystica) may hurt, lying to cover it is actually cruelty in the guise of kindness. And just when Suigintou thought that she was finally a legitimate Rozen Maiden (a belief strengthened by Rozen's appearance, and the gift of the Roza Mystica), Shinku refused to acknowledge it. That is perhaps the cruelest thing one can face, not being acknowledged. Try working hard from a lousy student to a good student and then have your teachers still calling you an idiot. Won't that really piss you off? And the fact that Suigintou witnessed Shinku as being the most 'loved' while Suigintou was abandoned probably added fuel to the fire. Suigintou felt that she was lied to and looked down. And she was also envious of Shinku. All that could give rise to a full blown hatred. By the way, Suigintou didn't initially realize that she was staying in the house of Rozen's most 'beloved' doll at that time, which was why she didn't attack Shinku on sight. In my opinion, she fully reclaimed her memories after she got her Roza Mystica, giving rise to the negative emotions that gave rise to her N-field. The fact she felt lied to also contributed to her current mental state. And not being acknowledged was the final straw that finally led to the hatred Suigintou shared with Shinku. And it seemed that Laplace and Enju (strange as it might had seem) could both be the chosen referees of the Alice Game, which might explain why they were looking for the Maidens. Enju was Rozen's apprentice after all, so it wouldn't be surprising that he was also chosen to be the referee. I believe he hadn't made Barasuishou at that era. And I think this special episode touched upon the subject on the origins of Suigintou hime-sama, but that era was probably not the last time they met before meeting Jun. Probably, after that particular era, there were still several more Alice Games which led to Suigintou eventually be known by not only Souseiseki, but Suiseiseki and all other Rozen Maidens, and especially gave rise to her reputation as a very powerful and dangerous doll. |
2006-12-25, 22:18 | Link #330 |
Seeker of Power
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Perhaps we should stop saying "I would do this" and "Shinku could have done that." Take things at face value. I'm sure Shinku/Suigintou's actions were carefully written to be in accord with their existing characters and add to them at the same time.
E'rbody be nice. Conversations can be opinionated without us trying to convince others of the one true truth, especially when it doesn't exist. Go ahead and draw your conclusions, but don't get hurt if someone else doesn't see from your point of view. It's just the internet. /end rational thought
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2006-12-25, 22:23 | Link #331 |
Hmmm?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Brill, Tirisfal Glade
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For Shinku, her actions was probably the kindest to think of, but kindness does not necessarily seem kind to Suigintou.
It was unfortunate, but I do not think Shinku could had done any better. I mean, her hopes was mostly shattered. Suigintou was quite a wreak when she first appeared, and would had stayed a wreak if Shinku hadn't done what she did. The learning of the 'truth' also returned Suigintou into a wreak, but she was fortunate in that sense that the moment she lost hope, Rozen came and she regained her hope again. But there was a dark side, Suigintou came to hate Shinku. The world isn't really fair. Kindness to one may seem to be cruelty to another. Kindness does not always get responded with gratefulness, and sometimes kindness hurts more than it helps in the long run. But heck, if Shinku didn't do what she did, the Suigintou hime-sama we all know and love wouldn't exist. |
2006-12-26, 01:16 | Link #332 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2006-12-26, 01:34 | Link #333 |
My Girl ↓
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Update: Ortigas, Pasig, Phillippines
Age: 36
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I just have finally translated Ouverture and though it is still not perfect I can sense that this one is not a prelude as was speculated, but a flashback. Be ready for RM3 as it will be at fall '07, rumors say....
And for Gin to just move out of pure love for her father.... well love CAN do miracles... as well as murders...
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2006-12-26, 02:21 | Link #335 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Yeah, don't forget Episode 6 of Traumend.
Episode 6 Clip I still hate STINKU in Overture, but this happens to be one of my favorite moments from the show, one of the very few moments that I actually liked Shinku. Almost redeemed her snobbish, selfish, prissy bitchy attitude. |
2006-12-26, 04:18 | Link #337 | |
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
Join Date: Dec 2004
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the.Merines has a very good point and I hope that my post are not taken as trying to convince others of my POV. As what I am trying to do is to understand the hardcore Gin camp's POV.
Now this is a good clip (even thro it goes against some of the things I have posted ) Quote:
S - Thank goodness. Just as I thought father... G - Of course he did! I am the one most suited to be Alice. That is why father revived me. But also if we take the apology, Shinku realises that it was wrong to call Gin Junk after she sees a doll revived and her arm fixed by Jun. So in the past when Shinku called Gin junk she really believed it was right to do so.... @Blitz - It was good and I loved how nothing stuck out like a sore thumb, it all flowed so nicely. Only thing is I wish I saw more Hina
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2006-12-26, 05:56 | Link #338 | |
~ You're dead ^__^* ~
Graphic Designer
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yep she believed it *plays dramatic music* and it took her all the way to the 2nd season to admit she was wrong T_T still i congraz her for admitting to it ~ i think that is why gin protected her against bara's attack... overall ouverture impressed me i was actually scared that it might be screwed up but instead we were bombarded with gin sama moe goodness
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2006-12-26, 06:24 | Link #339 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
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You cannot blame her for thinking that. See, its not because she wants to that she said that, not because she's doing it purposely; but it was because of that deep preconceived notion in her that RMs are near perfection; which we cant blame her for, because before Gin, that was the truth. That's why I cannot blame Shinku, as much as I cannot blame Gin. That's why I can't understand all this Shinku bashing, which kinda irritates me. I'm gonna take it out on Rozen. |
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adventure, comedy, drama, fantasy, nomad, ova, peach-pit, seinen, sequel, supernatural |
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