Signature of the Month Contest Generic Discussion Thread

[KiNA]

But then again.. When you voting for a crop work.. it isnt even his/her work.. Unless of course the original wallpaper is done by him as well..

[Klashikari]

Actually, it rather sounds like you mean "crop from wallpapers" and such, which indeed reflect of stealing other people work.
I think that it is quite misleading with the usual "crop" term, which is bluntly the image being cut and sized down, and perhaps spicied with effects and such.

I guess the discussion is just mixed up with the 2 situations here.

[KiNA]

Yes.. cropping from wallies are the major problem here.. And thats what pissed me off.

[KasumiGirl]

Cropped:

This is an example of what I mean when taken from a wallie.

Cropped+Effects:

I originally started with this image, and I added quite a bit of things. Though this can be rather ranging in different ways. Something like just colour tweaks and a couple of brushes can also come under this category.

I don't know what any of you guys think whether both of these shouldn't be allowed, or just the first type of using as a crop.

[Klashikari]

Naturally, I think everyone agrees that the first type is the issue here.
The second, I can't see any problem with that, which refers directly to skyfall's post.

[Sephi]

2. Contestants must submit original works. This means you cannot simply cut a picture out, slap your name on it, and call it your own. Claiming someone else's work as your own is also not allowed, nor is reusing one of your older signatures. Anyone caught doing this will have their entries removed from the contest.

It saddens me that something like this should even be mentioned. I can't speak for a majority of the community. But i personally thought the reason that we have SOTM is to improve and to learn. The two quoted things just defeats the purpose of the SOTM to begin with (IMHO).

Unless the participant think it takes great amount of skill to crop a sig and believe that there is a huge learning curve in that...

Of course i can also see Sky his point of view. For a non graphic designer it's just what is most appealing to the eye and vote for it. But for me as a graphic designer who has gone true a lot of effort to get to where i am now. I also get unpleasant feelings from the thought of a crop winning.

Though i already openly spoken about it with the people who i regularly speak over MSN. But at that moment the reason i gave was probably a bit weak. So my second try at it

Just to give a example:
Imagine there is a writing contest. You as a writer(person A) who has spend a lot of time in honing your skills as a writer spends several hours writing a article. And person B just copies it out of a book, twist a line or two around and submit it and than wins. I can not imagine any person in person A shoes that would not harbor any bad feelings about a thing like that happening.

Perhaps i'm a person with to much pride. But those are my thought about this subject. So my apologies if i hurt someones feelings in the process of trying to give my view on this subject.

As for deviantart stocks. It's quite frowned upon by some gfx community. Though i personally don't understand why. Perhaps it's just my limited view on things. But what is the difference of using the stock of someone from a deviantart fan-artist or using a stock some professional(anime scans) who are paid? As long as you don't claim the source is also your work i don't see the problem in that. Of course if the artist clearly said not to use it. Than you should just stay off of it.

Though perhaps it's my narrow view on things that make me think so... But i'm curious to find out why it's frowned upon myself to. So if anyone want to enlighten me on this subject i'm more than willing to learn about it

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Sephi

Just to give a example:
Imagine there is a witting contest. You as a writer(person A) who has spend a lot of time in honing your skills as a writer spends several hours writing a article. And person B just copies it out of a book, twist a line or two around and submit it and than wins. I can not imagine any person in person A shoes that would not harbor any bad feelings about a thing like that happening.

The anology would work with a cropped signature from an existing work (read wallpaper etc). But it simply doesn't work with the second.
Cropping is way too relative, as some case, the crop is barely the absence of "cut" and external BG for the render.

As for deviantart stocks. It's quite frowned upon by some gfx community. Though i personally don't understand why. Perhaps it's just my limited view on things. But what is the difference of using the stock of someone from a deviantart fan-artist or using a stock some professional(anime scans) who are paid? As long as you don't claim the source is also your work i don't see the problem in that. Of course if the artist clearly said not to use it. Than you should just stay off of it.

Though perhaps it's my narrow view on things that make me think so... But i'm curious to find out why it's frowned upon myself to. So if anyone want to enlighten me on this subject i'm more than willing to learn about it

This is probably because in the first case, you can ask the said artist the permission, while CG and such, it is pretty much moot and impossible to do that.
Also, most of the time, the use of render from Cg and such hardly have an impact to the initial goal of the designer: signatures and others are hardly impairing anime/eroge markets etc.

Meanwhile, misusing the arts and works of private and amateur artists is frowned upon, considering they are drawing and making these by themselves for show. various artists probably have different reasons, but I guess the most common is the fact the misuse of the work can go against the ideals of the drawer and such.
Especially if the "stealer" just adds some effects to that etc.

Ironically, using someone's work without their permission is almost like cropping a preprepared wallpaper into a signature. "You are using something which wasn't done by your own". There isn't really any proper middle/grey area here.

That said, I don't know if you saw wao's point a while back, but Japanese artists also begin to be annoyed by the use of their own arts without their permission.

[Sephi]

Cropping from existing work is my only concern. I don't consider stock manipulation cropping(what kasumigirl did). Though stock manipulation isn't the right word for that either more a tag... But yea, a wallie/scan and slapped in a sig size canvas and resized is what i'm talking about. Perhaps i should of made that more clear...

Ironically, using someone's work without their permission is almost like cropping a preprepared wallpaper into a signature.

Depends what you do with it oO if it's something similar like Kasumigirl sig than i don't agree. But if it's like the first than yes.

And no i didn't saw WAO point.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Sephi

Cropping from existing work is my only concern. I don't consider stock manipulation cropping(what kasumigirl did). Though stock manipulation isn't the right word for that either... But yea, a wallie/scan and slapped in a sig size canvas and resized is what i'm talking about. Perhaps i should of made that more clear...

Pretty much what I though. Sorry, I just added that point to be sure if we weren't talking about different things

That said, there is kinda some difficult way to stretch out what is allowed or whatnot
*scratches his head* I believe in the end, it should be left to voters' discretion, but I agree with the concern, and KiNA's solution seems rather nice... though I fear there might be "public executions" because of that.
In the end, if we involve too much things about "efforts" or whatnot, it will rather turn into serious business and competition, which are not the "main" part of the SOTM (I don't pretent there isn't any of these, but It would be troublesome if they are the core compenent of these things... they are quite different to AS banner contest after all).

[Deathkillz]

My, my...what a state we have here

I guess there are two groups of people here. The non siggy makers and the siggy makers. Whereas the non siggy makers will just be looking at what appeals to them the most, to the siggy makes, they know how much effort they need to put into producing siggies. Whilst it is true that which ever siggy looks the best should win, it is rather annoying to see people who use minimal effort (like crops) to produce a pro looking siggy, when in fact the effort spent on making it isn't theirs in the first place. I'm not pointing any fingers in particular as I know the "person" who KiNa was refering to did put in a lot of effort, but as for argument's sake, I generally would shrug at cropped type siggies in contests. Whilst this should be a fun learning experience, I feel that the point is lost if people don't put in the effort (or at least try something new). Luckily though, I have seen minimal of such cases. It's good to see new people trying to make even a crop sig, if it is their first time, that is one of the ways to start before they become more exploring.

[Skyfall]

I understand your feelings on the subject, and trust me when i say i can see where you are coming from. But there is one simple thing that doesn't let me apply your reasoning here - we are rating the end result, not the amount of effort put in to it. I apologize if i sound insensitive, but this is the best way to bring my point across - if i found a signature that was made in 1 hour to be more appealing than something made in 5 hours, i would vote the 1 hour one without blinking twice.

What we essentially have is "rate this signature", not "rate the effort spent on this signature", and i wouldn't approve of a contest based on the later as criteria, as it is too personal, to bias-sensitive and generally too unfeasible to make for objective criteria. I have no problems if a signature is denied entry if it was found unsuitable for the theme (even though even this is personally opinionated conclusion to a degree), but i can not approve of "entry denied because i don't think you put enough effort in it".

Of course i am not talking about the "crop a wall, stick text on it and voila" entries - those can indeed be discarded as plagiarism. But if someone takes an existing source and spends time actually modifying it (KasumiGirl's second example above) then i see no reason to deny such a work, nor would i condone a policy that advertises disallowing of such entries.

This whole project started as an idea for people to have fun, did it not ? Some competition is inevitable, and thats fine. But if it ends up creating such nitpicking of personal nature then i would be tempted to consider it no longer serving the intended purpose.

[xxmimixx]

Well as long the wallie is yours it is fine ^^. I don't see anything wrong with a crop siggy. If you wanna create a signature using a wallie from the creator of the wallie, ask them first, and see what they say. It is like drawing; sometimes you have to copy things to improve what you need to improve. So don't get too "AHHHH!" about it :P.

Sorry it doesn't make sense, but thats what I think. Maybe it is because you guys in general ere use of seeing GFX work instead of crop work oO.

[KiNA]

Again, if KG's example is used.. the 2nd are never classified as a crop sig. A crop sig means its just a cropped and maybe some borders where the total work of that sig could probably taken him/her a few minutes tops to applied. KG's 2nd example have more things applied that at first glance you cant even tell its a crop in the first place.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Sephi

And no i didn't saw WAO point.

Not really the topic, but I believe it is rather important for Sig makers to read that page
http://www3.to/ofp/

Depending how the fanart is used, a permission would be preferable to ask, especially from big shoes, such like kantoku, moonknives etc.
Obviously, this matter is far more related to websites and such which are stealing the artworks for brand use, which is quite different from sig material, but well...

Originally Posted by KiNA

Again, if KG's example is used.. the 2nd are never classified as a crop sig. A crop sig means its just a cropped and maybe some borders where the total work of that sig could probably taken him/her a few minutes tops to applied. KG's 2nd example have more things applied that at first glance you cant even tell its a crop in the first place.

The other problem will be the "third case": what about signatures which "look like crops", but that aren't? What about jobs which are quite nice by themselves (as the original picture CG was outstanding from the start), which don't exactly have much APPARENT work to need?
Maa... I guess the original source picture will be handy.

In the end, it becomes quite difficult to call head or tails, and it is quite "bias" after a while to consider something with sufficient efforts or whatnot, which we, moderators, refuse to apply on such competitions. As far as we can see, the main issue is pin pointed as "use of someone's else work" which is quite normal anyway.

[SeedFreedom]

Originally Posted by Solace

**Contest Rules Revision: Version 1.0**

Each month prospective contestants are given a theme to base their entries on. This theme is decided by the winner of the previous contest. The theme can be anything, as long as it does not break forum rules regarding inappropriate material. At the end of the month, voters choose which entry they liked best out of all submitted entries and a new winner is decided. Themes cannot be used twice in a row.

Sorry to break from the crop vs work discussion for a quick sec, but I just have a question about this line. Are you going to limit the voting to one per person, or should it read "which entries they liked..."

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom

Sorry to break from the crop vs work discussion for a quick sec, but I just have a question about this line. Are you going to limit the voting to one per person, or should it read "which entries they liked..."

It should be in plural I guess, until the amount of entries to vote per persons is subject to change again.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by KasumiGirl

For example, if I took one of KiNA's wallies, cropped it, and maybe added some text, i'm pretty sure KiNA would hit me in the head. That requires no skill, or even...no effort. AND I would have a sore head.

I think this point illustrates the big issue. It's easy to rip off someone's work who isn't related or involved with us on this forum and make the claim that what we're doing involves using other people's works anyway (which is true), but there is a distinction between using a stock image and using a render. The idea of using someone's own work in a competition against them, as pointed out by KasumiGirl, should make most people realize that it doesn't seem quite right.

Being a crop signature maker myself I can attest to the fact that it doesn't require a whole lot of skill or time. I enter my signatures less for seeing how people react to Photoshopping skills and more for the feeling of the signature as well as their response to my placement of elements. It's a different goal than "true" graphic designers, I know, and I can also understand why most graphic designers would have disdain for croppers.

I can also appreciate Sephi's statement about the overall goal of this contest. It isn't about winning, but about learning. Using someone's amazing work in a crop just to win is a hollow victory, because you haven't learned anything. The real prize is in learning new techniques and how to use your program to do different things. This contest spurred me to try things aside from just cropping, to seek out tutorials and learn new functions of the program, and I'm really thankful for it.

It would be very simple to add a rule stating that all source images used must be posted along with the entry, just for verification purposes. I don't know that we'd need to crack down on it unless the atmosphere became more competitive than learning-driven. If the majority of entrants are scouring the net and just cropping wallpapers left and right then the learning goal of the contest isn't being met, and it would likely harm the morale of those who would like to experiment and learn. In that scenario, I think that having such a rule would be necessary.

... with that said, while I don't think that people were referring to my entry for this month as a wall crop, I apparently have a confession to make! When I was originally going through my stocks folders I found that image and thought it was original. Two or three days before the close of the contest I tried to find a higher-resolution version of it due to feedback statements over blurrieness. I found one on a magazine cover, and I'm lead to believe that perhaps the image that I had (downloaded many years ago) was someone's wallpaper work. It would have been easy enough to emulate (render clouds + add some lens flares and light sources), but I ran out of time while cutting out my new-found source. I didn't think much of it at the time because I knew how to do the effects, but reading all of this has made me feel rather guilty about entering the image while having the idea that it might have been someone else's render. I'll certainly try not to do that again, and apologize if it offended anyone.

[Deathkillz]

I don't think you did anything wrong in using a stock that may have been someone else's work. Heck all images are like that in the first place (ie, I didn't make the image in my siggy). But the way you work with it to create something unique is what matters...that means using effects such as clouds, flares or otherwise. For a beginner it is quite alright imo to start with simple effects (otherwise how are you supposed to move onto the more complex stuff? ).

[Solace]

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom

Sorry to break from the crop vs work discussion for a quick sec, but I just have a question about this line. Are you going to limit the voting to one per person, or should it read "which entries they liked..."

It's a typo. Thanks for pointing it out.

[escimo]

2 cents of a noob entering his first sig compo...

I think this is a bit of a difficult question altogether as far as copyrights are concerned. Using a ready made render, or even making your own out of a fan-art or a promo picture can still be considered a copyright violation at least in some extent so as far as legal aspects are concerned there's not much difference in using a render with your own background and effects compared to just cropping a wallie. I'd say that making a good and original signature out of wallpaper stock can be just as difficult as using a render so there isn't necessarily much difference in terms of effort either. However just cut and paste + add border sigs do defy what I and clearly most of the others see as the point of this competition.

I'll use a musical example. Using a ready image, modifying it, retouching it and adding effects to it could be compared to making a remix of a song. In the case of a sigs giving credit to the original author can be a bit of a bitch though since even if you use a render from what ever imageboard it's generally a real bitch trying to find the author of the original picture. Giving credit to the maker of the render wouldn't be exactly right either even as it really is an art form of it's own. The same goes to screencaps etc. I think this is something that's quite widely recognized so I don't think it's really necessary to discuss about the author issue here. Going back to the music analogy you may not be called the author of the original work but the remix is definitely yours.

Then on the other hand just cropping a stock could be compared to just cutting 2 minutes out of a 5 minute song and calling it your own or your "remix". That's just not right. It's just a ripoff.

I can't come up with a single reason why someone would even enter a sig like this. It's not like the prizes are that great. Or does it really feel good to get recognition out of someone else's work? Is it just about cookies? Is winning really that important that something like this wouldn't feel very hollow? And can you really take pride of your work if it's just basically cutting and resizing a picture someone else made?

Going to the other extreme... Hell if a full utter and complete originality of all of the components of the sig would be a requirement for an entry I'm out of the future competitions. I can't draw for shit so I'm stuck with renders.

I did use a ready render in my entry sig. Spent quite a few hours going through a forest of them before coming up with the one that I used. Bg is a heavily retouched crop of a photograph I took. Even as I used a render that someone else made out of a art of a third party I think I can take pride in the work I did. Even, as a complete novice to signature making, I know that I did the best I could with my current abilities and in the time frame available for me. The size limits (both file size and image size) really gave me a headache. So for me this was just as much a technical challenge as it was artistic. I have to say that when the entries were lined up I honestly didn't expect to receive a single vote. The fact that I have already received a couple of votes and some honorary mentions just makes me very happy as someone else recognizes my effort and vision. If I had just scissored someone else's pic I really can't see how I could feel the same.

Anyway thank you very much to everybody who voted for my sig or gave me other kind of feedback. You're giving me a lot of encouragement to try even harder in the competitions to come. This is a prize of it's own.