[Manga] Chapter 401 Discussion

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

There is a reason why almost nobody in Konoha knows the truth, why Sarutobi the good guy was against it and why Danzou, the guy who force orphans to kill their friend for training, was the one behind it.

I think we are not told whether Sandaime was against it till the end, or approved of Itachi's mission at the end. If Sandaime approved of it, then being supportive of it or against it at the beginning does not make a difference. The views converge to one.

What they did is no different that the Water country killing all those with bloodline sbecause they decided that their existence triggered civil war or Pain killing every single person related to Hanzou.

Konoha's situation is different from both cases. Mist has targeted even people who have nothing to do with wars or clans. People who have been living far away from such, distributed within the country in a way to not plan something in an organized manner. Pain won the civil war. And, he ended the part by getting rid of every single soul who may or may not oppose him, who is simply on the other side during the civil war.

The difference in Konoha's case: First, there was a highly organized clan (you can consider it as one of the best organized ones in the Narutoverse), who was planning to go all the way to become the winner at the end of a future planned fight, without thinking deeply about the consequences and not possibly caring much about who lives or dies during the civil war. Also, they were part of a warrior clan, a clan who does not seem to approve the blood of a member who cannot show Uchiha-signature ninjutsu. Konoha's decision is definitely not honorable but at least it is better than the examples you presented (if you take into account all the factors involved).

It might also be better to ask the question, would it be any better if they had killed the 95% of the clan and left the remaining 5% alive? And at the end, giving the remaining alive ones the task of living in the worst possible conditions with only one thing to do at the end, revenge against Konoha, until getting rid of every single of innocent soul.

[Davitz]

i kno i may be completely off topic of what your discussing atm
but at the end of this chapter
was it another like short time skip of like maybe a week or so
becuse sasuke is standing on a rock wiv a new outfit with like the last thing madara was saying echoeing or is it showing a past event?

[EphemeralDream]

It would be pretty neat if Madara gave Sasuke Itachi's ring.

[HiroInazuma]

Originally Posted by EphemeralDream

It would be pretty neat if Madara gave Sasuke Itachi's ring.

I would laugh if underneath that Sasuke was wearing Itachi's top and necklace, I'm just wondering what Last Words will be like

[bluegarden]

hmmm...

is it just me, or is anyone else really disappointed with the manga??

kishimoto lost his ability.

the reasons itachi had for killing his clan aren't solid enough

[Ancient Soul]

All this Uchiha talk in the last chapters make me to want to know more about the Senju instead.Also Itachi was damn cool as a true evil one.Right now he was good (at least for Sasuke).Hope that the Snake team will be still with Sasuke after this.

[Hage-bai]

Originally Posted by bluegarden

hmmm...

is it just me, or is anyone else really disappointed with the manga??

kishimoto lost his ability.

the reasons itachi had for killing his clan aren't solid enough

Blame the Shueisha hype machine.

[Goshin]

its just you

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by bluegarden

hmmm...

is it just me, or is anyone else really disappointed with the manga??

kishimoto lost his ability.

the reasons itachi had for killing his clan aren't solid enough

I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm disappointed with the manga. However as I said earlier... This particular chapter is very similiar to the Metal Gear Solid storyline in Snake Eater.

The manga is great as a whole, and even then we can't fully judge it till its complete (if that ever happens).

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james3wk

[...]
Having said this, Punishiment, is defined by Right and Wrong, as defined by society.
[...]

No it is not, it's defined by the one delivering the punishment whoever he is for whatever reason he has.

I already made this argument, in fact I am a supporter of Konoha's destruction/reformation if what Madara has said is true, and have had discussions with other posters based on whether we can consider Itachi a "hero", as Madara has called him, if we believe Madara's version of the events.

That's not the point I'm making though (nor am I trying to explain Sasuke leaving the village based on informations he was unaware of), I was only speaking from Sasuke's point of view right there, right now.
Who is the hero, a cold killer or a traumatized and manipulated teen and whether he was right or wrong is beside my point. My point is that right now Sasuke can not share the priority of the village considering its government had ordered his death warrant based on his name alone.

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

I think we are not told whether Sandaime was against it till the end, or approved of Itachi's mission at the end. If Sandaime approved of it, then being supportive of it or against it at the beginning does not make a difference. The views converge to one.

Actually we were told Sarutobi tried to negociate to the bitter end but again that's not what I was discussing.

Konoha's situation is different from both cases. Mist has targeted even people who have nothing to do with wars or clans. People who have been living far away from such, distributed within the country in a way to not plan something in an organized manner. Pain won the civil war. And, he ended the part by getting rid of every single soul who may or may not oppose him, who is simply on the other side during the civil war.

The situation in the Water contry is actually nearly the same. Their power that be decided people with Kekkai Genkai were reason for civil wars and they decided to kill them all for the sake of their country, including those who had never done anything wrong. Except being born that is.
This is exactly the situation of Sasuke, he was a kid who knew nothing about the coup, his only crime was being born Uchiha and it cost him a death warrant.
Most of those killed by Pain were also killed for nothing else but being more or less related to someone who might have opposed him at some point, not for something they actually did.

It might also be better to ask the question, would it be any better if they had killed the 95% of the clan and left the remaining 5% alive?

Yes. There is a reason why what they did is considered the worst possible crime a civilization can do.
Based on this line of thought a nation at war with another should genocide its entire population because there might be bad blood later. Broadening the possible threats you also have to kill people in your country who might disagree with your decision because they could revolt later and so they have to be taken care of. With their families and friends who could revolt against their death, etc.
Your reasoning is simply absurd at best and sickening if you really understand what you are defending : killing an entire population based on what you fear they might do instead of something they actually did or are planning to do.

[Rezard]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Yes. There is a reason why what they did is considered the worst possible crime a civilization can do.
Based on this line of thought a nation at war with another should genocide its entire population because there might be bad blood later. Broadening the possible threats you also have to kill people in your country who might disagree with your decision because they could revolt later and so they have to be taken care of. With their families and friends who could revolt against their death, etc.
Your reasoning is simply absurd at best and sickening if you really understand what you are defending : killing an entire population based on what you fear they might do instead of something they actually did or are planning to do.

They did that to prevent a world war, the reasons for the massacre were good enough. You are viewing things exclusively by the Uchiha's point of view. Simplifying: the ends justify the the means.

Sure, there were other means to solve their dilema, but there was risk involved. Things that happened were the conclusion of lots of errors done by the Uchiha and by the Senju since the Village was created.

Mind you: I dont agree with the Konoha decision, if I was the third, I would attack the Uchiha led by Itachi, I would capture (or kill if impossible) the leaders and its followers. After that I would ban the segregation and would make Itachi a kage, so the Uchiha would feel they were fairly represented in Konoha, preventing future revolts.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Rezard

They did that to prevent a world war, the reasons for the massacre were good enough. You are viewing things exclusively by the Uchiha's point of view.

You don't understand what I'm saying, I'm not even faulting Danzou & co for decimating the Uchiha clan here or trying to find whose fault it was in the beginning. The Uchiha were a threat for them so they had to be killed and that's enough for me even without throwing around the possibility of a world war.
What I am pointing out is that they didn't just kill those who were a direct threat, they decided to kill everybody including kids and people who weren't even ninja.

And even that was but a side point, the original argument was Suna no tate saying Sasuke has no ground to want revenge anymore.

[ChojinLocke]

This is all based on Madara's story which might be inaccurate since it has no backup.

We should take into account that Konoha is not a nice place intrinsically speaking. It is the defence of the Fire Country : trained ninjas from children to defend the interests of the citizens of the nation. The organisational structure is definitely not democratic, nor is it democratic in any army around the world for obvious practical reasons. This particular decision of genocide is definitely wrong morally if seen from a democratic/liberal view but if seen from a militaristic view it is simply brutally efficient. It was always a matter of who is in charge in Konoha - the senju or the Uchihas : I think that was the big mistake.

Although as a human being I detest the kind of decision Konoha took, (which I also think is Kishimoto's point in the story and the change Naruto will bring will be related to the change of this kind of mentality) I still can understand it and grudgingly accept it within the framework of the Narutoverse (as described by Madara in his version of the events and history).

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

We should take into account that Konoha is not a nice place intrinsically speaking. It is the defence of the Fire Country : trained ninjas from children to defend the interests of the citizens of the nation. The organisational structure is definitely not democratic, nor is it democratic in any army around the world for obvious practical reasons. This particular decision of genocide is definitely wrong morally if seen from a democratic/liberal view but if seen from a militaristic view it is simply brutally efficient. It was always a matter of who is in charge in Konoha - the senju or the Uchihas : I think that was the big mistake.

I agree that these two different views of Konoha's organization were purposely demonstrated by Kishimoto. It really shows the consequences of influence from a militaristic leader like Danzou vs an idealistic one like Sarutobi and how both their systems can be either flawed or correct at times. Konoha as a society isn't necessarily good or evil, rather it acts accordingly to the governing body that runs it.

Anyhow, it being the case that Danzou will probably soon learn that Sasuke has defeated Itachi, he should be anticipating the possibility that Sasuke has learned the truth about the massacre. If that's so, he might also be anticipating Sasuke moving against him. Danzou seems to be the type of person who strikes before he can be attacked, so I wonder if this will cause him to take action.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

Although as a human being I detest the kind of decision Konoha took, (which I also think is Kishimoto's point in the story and the change Naruto will bring will be related to the change of this kind of mentality) I still can understand it and grudgingly accept it within the framework of the Narutoverse (as described by Madara in his version of the events and history).

Oh but I love this plotwise, I like Danzou's character and if we get to learn that he put the whole thing in motion since the very beginning to reach a situation where he could order the killing of the Uchiha clan I would like him even more. Talk about ruthless and cold efficiency.

[wiggy13]

Hello,

I though I would like to start the following fact finding info on itachi
I see a problem with "13 year old and having a lover".

I would like to verify his age. where is it from ? is it from the manga or databook, etc.
if we had the following that manga > databook > other cannon > anime
we will elimate the unknown


1) Let get facts about him like age 13 in anbu from manga

[Hunter]

What about it? Having a girlfriend at 13 is nothing but normal and we're talking about kids who can be sent on the battlefield when they are half this age.

[Goshin]

Originally Posted by wiggy13

Hello,

I though I would like to start the following fact finding info on itachi
I see a problem with "13 year old and having a lover".

I would like to verify his age. where is it from ? is it from the manga or databook, etc.
if we had the following that manga > databook > other cannon > anime
we will elimate the unknown


1) Let get facts about him like age 13 in anbu from manga

some one obviously doesn't read straight shota.

but yeah i feel the lover thing was just thrown in there, but there was no indication from the flashbacks, unless idk if other people have mentioned it itachi was homosexual and shunsui was his lover.

[stefanjovan]

the series is called naruto and naruto is the main character in firs so i thaught it will end like naruto becoming the hokage but after its all abot sasuke an is this the last chapter of the manga or what

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by ergonykto

16 years ago, for whatever reason, Kyuubi made his appearance. The villagers/advisers/Danzo come to the conclusion that the Uchihas were involved, starting the mistrust. Eight years later the Uchiha prepare a coup-d’état. What the heck were the Uchiha doing for around 60 years before Kyuubi and the eight years after, how in world were they handling the mistrust that they managed to bring things to such a state that a Konoha approved and permitted private army (because that was what the Uchiha were) was preparing a coup-d’état

Madara mentions there were a few Uchiha rebels who grew distrustful of Konoha soon after the police force was formed, but serious plans of a coup didn't start until after the Kyuubi attacked 16 years ago because it wasn't until after the attack that the Uchiha were confined a separate part of the village.

that Itachi classifies as the beginning of a Ninja War. Considering the political deck, Danzo and the advisers were on one side, the Uchiha on the other side, the Hokage in the middle. From the how Madara describes things, this coup-d’état, considering what a coup-d’état is, should have been about making a change in the advisers and getting rid of Danzo, maybe, and only maybe, the Sandaime. So either it was not a coup-d’état, but something more serious (like a rebellion), which would have involved the ANBU, or Itachi took a molehill for a mountain and goofed. Otherwise, Madara had a hand in deteriorating matters beyond control.

A coup-d’état is overthrowing the government by a branch of the military, which pretty much accurately describes the Uchiha-Konoha situation. Likely, the Uchiha planned to get rid of Sandaime as well. Even if they would've been willing to keep him alone in power, it's doubtful Sarutobi would've just stood by and let his advisors get forcefully removed from office, even if he didn't particularly agree with their views.. Also, removing leaders from office usually involves going through whatever forces still remain loyal to the government. It pretty much amounts to a civil war unless the entire military is involved in the coup.