Lacus Clyne... the Plot Hole Character

[Rever129]

Originally Posted by Bleed Kaga

Lacus Clyne = Game Shark

Kira without Game Shark
ep34 : anti-ship-sword in the chest

Kira with Game Shark
ep23 : owned everyone
ep28 : saviored
ep42 : cool moves
ep50 : flawless victory

Athrun without Game Shark
ep28 : saviored
ep38 : anti-ship-sword in the chest

Athrun with Game Shark
ep43 : victory
ep50 : flawless victory

This Post Not Meant To Be Taken Seriously

Nice post
(and so very true)

[4Tran]

I don't see why a young and effective leader should be viewed as either unrealistic or implausible. After all, young leaders were historically quite common; and a number of them were fairly effective as well. For some reason, Alexander springs immediately to mind.

[kiramuro]

Originally Posted by Phantom Lord

please don't relate Kira and Lacus to Sheridan and Delenn. Sheridan and Delenn seem more beliveable than Kira and Lacus. For one Sheridan was a war hero of the earth/mimbari war who was already a career soldier during that war and became captin of Babylon 5 for his years of service after the war unlike Kira who was a civilian when the first war in seed happened. And Deleen was already at a high postion(she was an assitant to one of the Mimbari's high ranking/religous leaders I think) and expericenced in politics more than Lacus.

In other words Sheridan's and Deleen's experience overshadow's Kira and Lacus

P.S. Sorry for going off a little off topic.

True hence i said it's a silly teenage version of the more realistic progression of events shown in B5.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Bleed Kaga

Lacus Clyne = Game Shark

Kira without Game Shark
ep34 : anti-ship-sword in the chest

Kira with Game Shark
ep23 : owned everyone
ep28 : saviored
ep42 : cool moves
ep50 : flawless victory

Athrun without Game Shark
ep28 : saviored
ep38 : anti-ship-sword in the chest

Athrun with Game Shark
ep43 : victory
ep50 : flawless victory

This Post Not Meant To Be Taken Seriously

Kira without gameshark:
Ep 28, pwns Chaos, pwns Saviour.
Ep 32, pwns Destroy.
Ep 34, beat by Shinn with a game genie. (and gets Shinn-stabbed)

Athrun without gameshark:
Ep 6, pwns Chaos, Abyss
Ep 17 matches up against Chaos with Saviour
Ep 28 gets Savioured
Ep 38 gets Shinn-stabbed

I just think that Kira used up all the Lacus dust by the end of ep 32. If you look at ep 34, Freedom has no Lacus dust coming from its wings in that episode.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I don't see why a young and effective leader should be viewed as either unrealistic or implausible. After all, young leaders were historically quite common; and a number of them were fairly effective as well. For some reason, Alexander springs immediately to mind.

Well as usual your posts aren't easy to hide and screams to me "quote him, quote him..."

I'd like you to transpose the conclusions that make you think this about Lacus with some evidence behind it...That is all i've ever asked of you on this topic...Give me some children-teenage leaders who have acted in a way to make Lacus' omnipresence seem acceptable...Mind you any name or situation you come up with must equate to Lacus's end-game which is total rightousness and absolute victory...


On a side note I could decide to start talking about this non-existent//existent entity controlled by Lacus called "Terminal" but I don't want to totally reign supreme here^^...

[4Tran]

I already gave the example of Alexander - technically, he was 20 when he ascended to the Macedonian throne, but that's little more than a nitpick. If you want more examples, just look at the Manchu child-emperors.

Why must my examples equate to "total rightousness and absolute victory"? After all, Lacus has always had her detractors. The thread is not about how it is impossible for Lacus to accomplish the things she did using the exact methods she used. Rather, it simply is about how it is implausible for someone as young as Lacus to accomplish what she did.

By the way, wingdarkness, what are you trying to get at by saying "omnipresence"?

[tritoch]

I don't know why so many people have a grudge against Lacus.

What about Relena from Wing, she was young, she was a political power. She didn't give Heero his pawnzors wing zero gundam but still.

Also when did Lacus become a leader? She was an activist in Seed and turned mediator of Zaft at the end of GSD. She didn't assume any role other than an activist that had the resources to be well... active.

As for Lacus being the leader of the three ships alliance, not true. It was everyone's unanimous agreement to fight (both in Seed and GSD)
"Athrun is Athrun, the worst thing of all is not being able to do anything when you want to do something." <-- no brainwashing here.

[wingdarkness]

@4tran - Well you have commonly expressed your respect for Lacus' character and have even defended alot of stuff I deem non-sensical at best...You want to be able to make the point that young political minded leaders like Lacus exist and have existed many times in history...So if she has a modicum of realism...if she operates in the realm of relating with these young leaders in real societal history, then we must also use or gauge her accomplishments in terms of comparison...these accomplishments IMO based on GSD is "absolute victory" and we all know the one that achieves this gets "the rightousness" aswell (whether it be the pure pink-pixeled kind or the Djbril kind)...Given the circumstances of the C.E. vs the evidence of Lacus' manuvering to accomplish what she did, shouldn't the comparison atleast equate if her actions are as plausible as you deem??

By the way, wingdarkness, what are you trying to get at by saying "omnipresence"?

Lets keep that door closed for this present moment in time...It is a door that has been opened many times before though...

[Shiryuu]

Originally Posted by tritoch

I don't know why so many people have a grudge against Lacus.

What about Relena from Wing, she was young, she was a political power. She didn't give Heero his pawnzors wing zero gundam but still.

Wasn't she a real princess before her country got destroyed?

[SNT1]

maybe because Relena made mistakes, while Lacus is perfect in every single way? (In CE, she never made a mistake----she's always right)

[tritoch]

Okay bad analogy with Relena.. she's more of a Cagalli type. my bad.

[tritoch]

Originally Posted by SNT1

maybe because Relena made mistakes, while Lacus is perfect in every single way? (In CE, she never made a mistake----she's always right)

She's less than perfect and more human. She falls in love; her father died- she's been a target of assassination. What sense of perfection do you mean? In wars? She got friends who share her sentiments, heck even those speaches in the eternal- its not from someone who is perfect but someone who is in despair. Lacus is just like everyone else in the 3 ship alliance, she's yearning for a better future and what better way to do it is to do it with your friends.

[SNT1]

yeah, my point is she never makes a mistake :P While I hate for other people to call Kira a god or whatever, its really Lacus that made Kira what he is, or at least a major key player. No one has ever said 'no' to her, everyone mysteriously bows down. in CE she can do no wrong. I mean a real human being in Lacus' place would be bitchslapping Meer right now, but even she cries for her o_O She can provide super MSes for anyone who's at her side (wait.. I like super MSes... scratch that)... I mean her walk in PLANT is a direct rip-off from Star Wars (the emperor)...

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by SNT1

yeah, my point is she never makes a mistake :P While I hate for other people to call Kira a god or whatever, its really Lacus that made Kira what he is, or at least a major key player. No one has ever said 'no' to her, everyone mysteriously bows down. in CE she can do no wrong. I mean a real human being in Lacus' place would be bitchslapping Meer right now, but even she cries for her o_O She can provide super MSes for anyone who's at her side (wait.. I like super MSes... scratch that)... I mean her walk in PLANT is a direct rip-off from Star Wars (the emperor)...

Took the words right out of my mouth. I was about to say that but good thing you spared me the time.

It's what made Lacus, IMO, less interesting for me to watch. Her relationship with Kira also seems a little one-sided to me, like they only met twice and they already seem like they're having the perfect relationship - I'm not saying that's unreallistic, but I'm saying it's rather boring to watch. She doesn't seem to struggle as much, rarely has problems, the only time I remember seeing her break down was when her father died, but that's it.

At least Cagalli had struggles, problems and even fights, and her relationship with Athrun had flaws, but was at least more interesting to watch just due to the fact that it did have flaws. BTW, I'm not a Cagalli fan either, just for the record.

I don't see why so many people are fascinated with Lacus so much (yes, there are some sad ppl out there), her personality is kinda boring and one-sided good-guy themed, I understand she's a useful plot device, but I don't see anything special, character-wise. There's NOTHING to develop whatsoever. As an audience of a show, I want to see characters WITH FLAWS and good through some decent CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT to OVERCOME THESE FLAWS, for example, Kira lacked the power, but only had his thoughts, his dreams and his will, he was useless, until he finally got Freedom and was able to use this power to do what he desired. Another example is Athrun - this guy had ISSUES coming out of his ass, his father has become a madman and we see him make tough choices aobut deserting his army, etc. etc. and we were interested on seeing what he'll do in the end, etc.

Same thing with Shinn - this guy had major issues and flaws, except the only problem was, the series only half-developed him and didnt really finish off and develop him further and just left him as he was, because everyone wanted more Kira and Lacus fanservice.

[tritoch]

err.. Shinn was developed into a darth vader clone

As for bishslapping Meer, that'd be wrong. Meer was a victim of Dullindal/Durandal he used her than when the propaganda was going out of control, sent her away and she died for it (albeit a bit late. ep 48 ). Come on, if someone is claiming to be me and is just being used by someone to get something, then what that someone has no need for it, kills it out of convinience. Ouch.

Meer really thought she was Lacus and well Lacus, accepts that since Meer thought she was doing it for a good cause. gah

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by tritoch

err.. Shinn was developed into a darth vader clone

Now that you mention it, Destiny got 'savioured' as bad Vader did, lol.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

@4tran - Well you have commonly expressed your respect for Lacus' character and have even defended alot of stuff I deem non-sensical at best...You want to be able to make the point that young political minded leaders like Lacus exist and have existed many times in history...So if she has a modicum of realism...if she operates in the realm of relating with these young leaders in real societal history, then we must also use or gauge her accomplishments in terms of comparison...these accomplishments IMO based on GSD is "absolute victory" and we all know the one that achieves this gets "the rightousness" aswell (whether it be the pure pink-pixeled kind or the Djbril kind)...Given the circumstances of the C.E. vs the evidence of Lacus' manuvering to accomplish what she did, shouldn't the comparison atleast equate if her actions are as plausible as you deem??

Your wording is slightly off: I think that young leaders are historically commonplace. Some of these leaders were quite effective, and a few are renowned enough to be given a place among greatest leaders of all time. Hence Lacus being a great leader at a tender age is not really implausible.

I most certainly do not think that Lacus achieved "absolute victory"; I think that taking such a term seriously is a sign of naivety. One simply does not gauge the plausibility of an accomplishment by examining whether a historical action exactly parallels a hypothetical one. Instead, it's better to compare the relative scopes of the accomplishments with the resources available.

Originally Posted by SNT1

maybe because Relena made mistakes, while Lacus is perfect in every single way? (In CE, she never made a mistake----she's always right)

That's utterly bizarre: basically, you're suggesting that we should judge Lacus more harshly than Relena because Lacus is the better leader! This is especially telling since Lacus is hardly free from making mistakes; she simply was better at recovering from them.

[tritoch]

That chairman reeks of manipulative power and what better way to have his frontman Shinn be engrossed to him by giving him a brand spanking new suit: Destiny.

The look on Shinn's face everytime he makes a conscious thought about the war is just agonizing. Rey and Dullindal got Shinn on a leash. poor thing.

[tritoch]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Your wording is slightly off: I think that young leaders are historically commonplace. Some of these leaders were quite effective, and a few are renowned enough to be given a place among greatest leaders of all time. Hence Lacus being a great leader at a tender age is not really implausible.

I most certainly do not think that Lacus achieved "absolute victory"; I think that taking such a term seriously is a sign of naivety. One simply does not gauge the plausibility of an accomplishment by examining whether a historical action exactly parallels a hypothetical one. Instead, it's better to compare the relative scopes of the accomplishments with the resources available.

---

I think wingdarkness wants you to give him a concrete example. Find some young leaders. Google it..

[SNT1]

That's utterly bizarre: basically, you're suggesting that we should judge Lacus more harshly than Relena because Lacus is the better leader! This is especially telling since Lacus is hardly free from making mistakes; she simply was better at recovering from them.

I wasn't judging anyone harshly, I don't know where you got that. I'm saying alot of fans DO that however, and just plain dislikes Lacus for what she is (flawless). I really don't see a connection in the first place.

Although at the top of my head, I can't seem to think of any scene where Lacus made a mistake

As for Darth Shinn ---> so true XD Hey at least Anakin was on the upper hand most of the fight with his mentor