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Old 2016-07-30, 14:26   Link #21
chaos_alfa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER View Post
it seems you misunderstood me. that indoctrination theory was an outlier theory,not a theory that i embrace. furthermore,even if it was correct,that still means virgilia is a witch in the meta-world.

i would love to know how"chunnibyou"means you can visit alternate timelines and freeze time. in the meta-world,witches and magic are undeniable. that theory was simply about the"game world",and like i said it opens a 1000 cans of worms,which is why it is just a"what if"scenario for me
I have to make a correction in your deduction proces. I get the impression that you view the "alternate timelines" just as timelines which exist independent of meta-Beatrice actions and she is just showing them to Battler.

The different timelines should be viewed as dimensions created by meta-Beatrice. Because meta-Beatrice is the game master of the game between her and Battler, she can move around any piece she wants. By moving around the piece as she sees fit she can create different games and scenarios. She is not omnipotent in this act. There are some rules which she has to follow. Figuring out what these rules are is important. One of them which you should already be aware of, if I remember correctly, is that pieces can't act out of character. They have to be consistent over each game.

The only piece meta-Beatrice can't control is Battler's piece. Only meta-Battler can move that one.

I hope this framing device will help you in your journey of figuring out Umineko's mystery.

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2016-07-30 at 16:15.
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Old 2016-07-30, 20:05   Link #22
Jaden
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True, the objective of the game is to prove witches and magic didn't exist - only during the two days on Rokkenjima. The vase scene that Beatrice showed, either on purpose or unconsciously, was a flashback from the real world that happened before those two days. So, it's not strictly necessary to question whether the vase was fixed with magic or not.

Even Battler isn't looking to disprove magic altogether, since his own existence in the meta-world is obviously supernatural.

Still, if you accept that they used magic in the past, proving that they didn't do it again during the incident becomes more difficult.
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Old 2016-07-31, 02:05   Link #23
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER
i thought of that,but like i said"if beatrice fabricated the whole scene then that would mean that she can read minds,as how else would she know that current eva has an alter ego that looks like her younger self?"
I'm saying Beatrice could be lying about what's in people's heads, because Battler can't exactly look inside himself.

Quote:
what if Beatrice herself is,to use a Mass Effect term,Indoctrinated?

i mean,if you want to go a 100% pure "anti-fantasy,no magic can happen at all in normal umineko world" approach(which i dont believe in,but cant deny it as a possibility either)then beatrice's flashback scene pretty much obliterates that possibility,as in it we see clear use of magic to fix what was clearly broken for a while in a scene that,like i said,was from beatrice's memories. she didnt intend to remember it,and battler didnt see it. the only possible way for you to save that belief is for beatrice's own memories to be fake.
furthermore,the "vase cant be restored" line. again,how can beatrice the endless say that?it completely goes against all the principles of her being "her". of her being an endless witch.
She could be lying directly to the reader. It wouldn't be the only time she's addressed the 4th wall above Battler's head.

Quote:
i am pretty confident it was also said that the mirror had lost its power for a while until kinzo,at some unspecified point,restrengthened it. that unspecified point could be after the suicide.

there are more evidence though. what was the purpose od that mirror?to prevent EVIL spirits from COMING to the island and force the ones already there to leave. first of all,we have no evidence that"old beatrice"was an evil spirit(and according to my theory she wasnt),so the mirror wouldnt affect her if she was a good spirit then. second of all,if old beatrice was a bad spirit then how was she even able to be summoned to the island if the mirror was still working?the mirror should have been like a protective barrier that stops her from entering but forces her to exit if she entered,nor force her to stay. it wouldnt make sense for a protective mirror to force evil spirits to stay.
to summerize,order of events:
1-mirror was weak and not needed,pld beatrice summoned
2-old beato dies/suicides,human beato is made
3-kinzo strengthens the mirror,but not before he modifies the mirror's nature so that it keeps the spirits inside instead of throwing them out. this is done as a protective measure in case "human beatrice"ever regains her power and remembers why she died/suicided.
4:Human Beato dies.
It's specifically mentioned in these earlier episodes that the mirror's eastern power also interfered with Beatrice's western magic and acted as a barrier that kept her from leaving, thus she ended up committing suicide because she couldn't use magic to escape.

Quote:
in eastern religions,reincarnation is based on how you did in the past life. if old beato was truly that great then she would have reached nirvana,not gotten reincarnated. also,where you get reincarnated is random,so what are the odds she will get reincarnated there of all places?
i believe"she chose to hide/sleep inside kumasawa's body so that she is ready in case beatrice ever gets revived"is a more logical answer.perfect example is the main character in Seikrei.
That kind of goes out the window when the reincarnation is something deliberately done by a powerful magic-user, which is a common element in Japanese folklore and stories.

Quote:
sorry but i simply cant accept that reasoning. within the story it is impossible for this scene to be fake in anyway(unless my"uncomfortable theory"is correct). this is a game between battler and beato.as far as this game is concerned"we"dont exist. if this was a comedy or parody game i would accept 4th wall breaking and whatnot,but a game that requires you to milk your brain like this must have everything in it make sense by its own rules and story. this is the same reason i know bernkastel isnt talking to"me"in the tea parties. she could be talking to battler or to someone else(although the EP2 tea party part telling you to"go to her because she is waiting for you to get up" followed by battler appearing with her sure seems to suggest it is battler,but the two events could be coincidences). either way,she is talking to"somebody."I"dont exist in this game.
Uh...Bernkastel was talking to both Battler AND the Reader. Though Bernkastel and Lambdadelta exist on a higher layer of reality than Beatrice and Battler, so it's a moot point there.

Quote:
why was the fate not changeable?because virgilia wasnt an endless witch yet. if she was then the fate would have been changeable. that was explicitly stated in the scene.
But if magic isn't real, what does that scene leave you with?
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Old 2016-08-01, 10:01   Link #24
FFTHEWINNER
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reached until after rosa dies. here are my new thoughts and theories:

-"hold my hand stuff"is a red herring.it has no meaning beyond wanting some comfort.

-what eva was saying was a hallucination induced by fever. as for what we saw with rosa,remember that the very first thing we saw were the golden butterflies,which according to my theory=hypnosis.everything we saw after that rosa and maria were hypnotized into seeing.

-however,even though they were hypnotized,what they saw doesnt 100% match what we saw. why?because,when eva turned into endless eva,her clothes and looks completely changed.however,there was no reaction to the change in look and clothes.you'd think if rosa saw said change she'd panic. yet she was still not sure weather or not she was eva.

-as for how the events actually happened,here is my current theory. keep in mind that i still havent reached the meta discussion about it though.
eva had a partner,agreed to kill rosa with said partner, when she got sick she suspected that she might be poisoned by him,so she regretted it and tried to save rosa. she failed,so she ignores what she said in the discussion later because she knows it will only make her suspicious.

-the scene had me originally wondering if beatrice is actually the one creating those illusions,as i was like"if she is creating them then how come she went to the illusion and tried to reason with it?". however,it later occurred to me that the reason she modified the illusion this way is because,despite battler's declaration that he wont watch any more,she was hoping that he was watching and that seeing her do this will calm his anger.it was a sort of apology if you will.

-why is there a"wiped out"black part on rosa and maria's faces?this never happened before in any other portrait. what would the meaning be?

-i recently learned something big that i didnt notice. in episode 2,battler actually saw the butterflies,met beatrice,and submitted to her BEFORE midnight!if you look at the times in the"choose the chapter"menu,you will see that this chapter starts at 11:30 and the next chapter,Banquet of the Witch,starts at 11:59.this is pretty interesting.as it quite supports what i believe. battler saw magic before midnight. that is undeniable(like i said before,the"he was drunk"card doesnt work,as both the game and he himself say that he was completely focused and not drunk at all). if we go by the traditional"before/after midnight"separation then this wouldnt make sense at all,as it confirms that magic happened before midnight. however,if we go by my"before/after witch's revival"explanation then no problem at all here. the witch was already revived as soon as the 8th twilight was finished. thus,there is no problem with having magic even before 12 because the witch is in full power now and nothing stops her.



"I have to make a correction in your deduction proces. I get the impression that you view the "alternate timelines" just as timelines which exist independent of meta-Beatrice actions and she is just showing them to Battler.

The different timelines should be viewed as dimensions created by meta-Beatrice. Because meta-Beatrice is the game master of the game between her and Battler, she can move around any piece she wants. By moving around the piece as she sees fit she can create different games and scenarios. She is not omnipotent in this act. There are some rules which she has to follow. Figuring out what these rules are is important. One of them which you should already be aware of, if I remember correctly, is that pieces can't act out of character. They have to be consistent over each game.

The only piece meta-Beatrice can't control is Battler's piece. Only meta-Battler can move that one.

I hope this framing device will help you in your journey of figuring out Umineko's mystery. "

i dont view them as independent from meta-beatrice's actions.like i mentioned,her influence caused rosa to break the mirror, convinced the different killers to commit their crimes,etc. so she does have a huge influence on the different worlds.

i thank you for the explanation.however,i have to admit that i dont get your explanation,because for them to be"pieces"that beatrice can move as she wishes then they have to not be"humans". humans have their own will and decision making abilities. you can influence them,but you cant control them like you can with chess pieces.
same with game-battler,which aura explained simply has a "telekinetic link"with battler. each pf them can influence the feelings/thoughts of the other,but meta-battler cant simply control and order him. this is made abundantly clear in the last scene,as meta-battler is begging game-battler to go to the rose garden yet game-battler doesnt do anything.and even then,the only reason such telepathic link exists is because both are"battler",while beatrice doesnt have a"game beatrice"so she doesnt have a telepathic link with anyone. however,she can appear and influence them through a combination of reward promises,threatens,and hypnosis.

after all,if you can control someone the way you said then that someone is just a doll.just an npc that the computer controls. i find that very hard to accept considering everything.

"True, the objective of the game is to prove witches and magic didn't exist - only during the two days on Rokkenjima. The vase scene that Beatrice showed, either on purpose or unconsciously, was a flashback from the real world that happened before those two days. So, it's not strictly necessary to question whether the vase was fixed with magic or not.

Even Battler isn't looking to disprove magic altogether, since his own existence in the meta-world is obviously supernatural.

Still, if you accept that they used magic in the past, proving that they didn't do it again during the incident becomes more difficult. "

is that really the objective of the game though?because it seems to me that the objective is simply to prove weather the crimes were done by magic or not. nothing more. to quote my earlier post:
"the game between battler and beatrice is about who did the murders. beatrice wins if battler admits with all his heart that the murders could only happen using beatrice's magic. battler wins if he can prove that all of the murders could have been committed by a human. those are the winning conditions,which means that the essence of the game is"could a human commit these crimes or not",not"is beatrice a witch or not".
this means that,as long as "magic and witches"arent the killers then it doesnt matter weather they exist on the island or not,or they happened or not. they simply have to not be the murderers.
and yes,it happened before the two days. however,it does have big importance in weather or not magic is doable in the"game world".
oh,and i dont think it was on purpose at all. beato was dreaming. no one can choose what they dream of. also,it want shown to battler,so what would be the point of beato deliberately remembering it then?

"I'm saying Beatrice could be lying about what's in people's heads, because Battler can't exactly look inside himself."

you mean that "young eva"never even existed inside eva's brain?that she is 100% beatrice's creation?that would lead us into dangerous territory. after all,eva talked about having"young eva"inside her with hideoshi.while i certainly agree that magical scenes arent what really happened,that was a normal scene. thus,to deny that would mean that i would have to doubt and deny every scene that piece battler isnt in,which is like 80% of the game's scenes. i honestly cant do that. first of all,if i denied all that then the game would have way too many suspects that it is impossible to even guess who the real one is. no one that battler wasnt with would have an alibi after all,no matter what we saw them do. also,the game would simply not be fun for me any longer.thus,i cant doubt every scene that battler isnt in if it didnt have any magic in it.
however,an alternative explanation occurred to me that would solve this problem. you see,what if beato simply heard eva talk to her "imaginary younger self"alone,and simply made a visual representation of what this"younger self"looks like. that will solve all the problems .

"It's specifically mentioned in these earlier episodes that the mirror's eastern power also interfered with Beatrice's western magic and acted as a barrier that kept her from leaving, thus she ended up committing suicide because she couldn't use magic to escape."

actually,i just replayed that scene and the"suicide"stuff wasnt mentioned. in fact,the timeline that this discussion provided fits what i said.
-beato is summoned,a contract is made,and she gives kinzo the gold(which again,would require a magical operation that would simply not be possible if the mirror was still powerful).
-for a long while,kinzo uses the gold to rebuild the ushiromya fortunes.he wasnt in love with beatrice during that time,and thus no reason for her to not be able to go and come as she wants.
-after that long while,he falls in love with her
then she talks about the mirror and how she has been imprisoned in here for "decades"because of it. now:
-we know from another part that the mirror had lost most of its power and became incredibly weak,then kinzo,at some unspecified point,restrengthened it(and possibly modified its power to serve his goals)
-English has no"plural for two only"like other languages have. thus,"decades"could mean"2 decades",which is approximately how long current batrice has been imprisoned in rokkenjima.
-we know that the mirror originally was to prevent evil spirits from coming to the island and seal the ones already there so that they become powerless. again,if the mirror was working,and old beatrice was evil,then how was she even able to come to the island in the first place?and how was she able to use her magic from inside the island to summon the gold? either the mirror wasnt working or old beatrice wasnt an evil spirit but a good one and thus the mirror power didnt affect her.

"That kind of goes out the window when the reincarnation is something deliberately done by a powerful magic-user, which is a common element in Japanese folklore and stories."

ok.didnt hear of this one before but if that is the case then fair point. the whole meaning of the"sleeping"part is up to interpretation anyway. you interpreted it as reincarnation,i interpreted it as having a 2nd soul inside her. until the cat box is opened,both interpretations are valid

"She could be lying directly to the reader. It wouldn't be the only time she's addressed the 4th wall above Battler's head.
Uh...Bernkastel was talking to both Battler AND the Reader. Though Bernkastel and Lambdadelta exist on a higher layer of reality than Beatrice and Battler, so it's a moot point there."

who is"the reader"?is this some new character we arent introduced to yet?revealing new characters is spoilers you know

in all seriousness,the reason i have a big problem with that explanation is that,in truly great stories,and i so far include umineko in that category,by the end of the story EVERYTHING makes sense within the story's rules. nothing isnt explainable by the end of the story.
now assume for the sake of the conversation that the end of umineko includes that no magic ever happened in any point of history in any world except the meta world. then you would have this scene unexplainable inside the story. why?because,as far as the characters and the story is concerned,there is no"reader". thus,nothing would be done with the sole purposed of tricking that which doesnt exist.
again,if this was a story whose goal is comedy or parody then 4th wall jokes fit. it is in the genre naturally and are funny when done well. but this is an extremely serious and gritty story with tons of drama and mystery. having 4th wall stuff in it simply kills the story because it isnt explainable from within. imagine watching Starwars and,after vader says"i am your father",he grabs luke and throws him towards the camera. luke hits the camera with his ass,says"ouch. hope it isnt damaged"and vader says"i am also the father of everyone watching us right now.hope you are enjoying the movie guys".how would you feel after that?that is exactly how i would feel if the only explanation for this scene was"she was pulling a trick on/trolling the reader"and there was no explanation within the rules of the story.

on a side point,what do you mean by"Bernkastel and Lambdadelta exist on a higher layer of reality than Beatrice and Battler"?we clearly see them in the same layer with beatrice and(presumably)battler in the tea parties,so why would they be on a higher one?

"But if magic isn't real, what does that scene leave you with? "

well,it leaves me with tons of stuff that doesnt make sense. first is the point that i already explained.second is that we know that,in the meta world at least,it is undeniable that beatrice is a witch. thus,she must have learned witchcraft from"somebody". if virgilia wasnt a witch then who did beatrice learn from then?and why would she call virgilia"teacher-sama" in that case?

sp:i hope none of you guys get annoyed from my multiple arguments. it is just that i want to fully 100% understand each point and make sure it doesnt contradict anything else before i embrace it

ssp:i personally think the way i analyze is different because most people become immersed in how battler is thinking and start to think like him,while i,in most cases,enjoy the villain/anti hero more than the"hero". thus,i dont mind accepting that,as long as it doesnt interfere with the"winning condition"(that the murders werent done by beatrice),magic could exist as much as it wants in this world. heck,i normally dont enjoy normal detective stories that much(although i enjoy arsein lupin's stories,because he is a wonderful anti hero). the magic+the great villian+Kinzo are what attracts me to umineko the most
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Old 2016-08-01, 10:52   Link #25
Jaden
Witch of Betrayal
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER View Post
-i recently learned something big that i didnt notice. in episode 2,battler actually saw the butterflies,met beatrice,and submitted to her BEFORE midnight!if you look at the times in the"choose the chapter"menu,you will see that this chapter starts at 11:30 and the next chapter,Banquet of the Witch,starts at 11:59.this is pretty interesting.as it quite supports what i believe. battler saw magic before midnight. that is undeniable(like i said before,the"he was drunk"card doesnt work,as both the game and he himself say that he was completely focused and not drunk at all). if we go by the traditional"before/after midnight"separation then this wouldnt make sense at all,as it confirms that magic happened before midnight. however,if we go by my"before/after witch's revival"explanation then no problem at all here. the witch was already revived as soon as the 8th twilight was finished. thus,there is no problem with having magic even before 12 because the witch is in full power now and nothing stops her.
That is very misleading indeed. Actually, I think it'll save you some trouble if we admit that Battler seeing magic before midnight was a plot hole, even if he was somewhat drunk. This scene has been altered in the manga to where he sees no magic...he does still meet with Beatrice though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER View Post
Is that really the objective of the game though?because it seems to me that the objective is simply to prove weather the crimes were done by magic or not. nothing more. to quote my earlier post:
"the game between battler and beatrice is about who did the murders. beatrice wins if battler admits with all his heart that the murders could only happen using beatrice's magic. battler wins if he can prove that all of the murders could have been committed by a human. those are the winning conditions,which means that the essence of the game is"could a human commit these crimes or not",not"is beatrice a witch or not".
this means that,as long as "magic and witches"arent the killers then it doesnt matter weather they exist on the island or not,or they happened or not. they simply have to not be the murderers.
and yes,it happened before the two days. however,it does have big importance in weather or not magic is doable in the"game world".
oh,and i dont think it was on purpose at all. beato was dreaming. no one can choose what they dream of. also,it want shown to battler,so what would be the point of beato deliberately remembering it then?
Yes, you are right and I stand corrected. The idea of accepting magic but still fighting on the "mystery side" feels naive to me, but maybe I've been unnecessarily stubborn with the anti-fantasy strategy. It's certainly not the only way, and not necessarily even the correct way to approach this story. I forgot whether Battler was privy to that dream scene, or if it was just bonus information for the readers...it probably was. Whether we're supposed to be in Battler's shoes or if there are different readers that these stories were supposed to reach, who knows. It's not relevant at this point.

Quote:
sp:i hope none of you guys get annoyed from my multiple arguments. it is just that i want to fully 100% understand each point and make sure it doesnt contradict anything else before i embrace it
You're getting a more dense experience with Umineko than most people on this board did. I started when the game was only translated up to episode 3. From there, the rest became accessible over a period of like, two years? So we had plenty of time to discuss it on the internet and refine our theories. Not gonna be the case for people starting now. Still, you have good insight on some stuff already.
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Old 2016-08-01, 13:07   Link #26
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER
-however,even though they were hypnotized,what they saw doesnt 100% match what we saw. why?because,when eva turned into endless eva,her clothes and looks completely changed.however,there was no reaction to the change in look and clothes.you'd think if rosa saw said change she'd panic. yet she was still not sure weather or not she was eva.
To be fair, she turned into Eva as a teenager. She might've been in shock.

Quote:
-i recently learned something big that i didnt notice. in episode 2,battler actually saw the butterflies,met beatrice,and submitted to her BEFORE midnight!if you look at the times in the"choose the chapter"menu,you will see that this chapter starts at 11:30 and the next chapter,Banquet of the Witch,starts at 11:59.this is pretty interesting.as it quite supports what i believe. battler saw magic before midnight. that is undeniable(like i said before,the"he was drunk"card doesnt work,as both the game and he himself say that he was completely focused and not drunk at all). if we go by the traditional"before/after midnight"separation then this wouldnt make sense at all,as it confirms that magic happened before midnight. however,if we go by my"before/after witch's revival"explanation then no problem at all here. the witch was already revived as soon as the 8th twilight was finished. thus,there is no problem with having magic even before 12 because the witch is in full power now and nothing stops her.
Interesting, but he also 'gave up' at this point in time and believed the Witch. Is it possible this fact allowed him to lose his objectivity, and be 'hypnotized' or whatever?

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i thank you for the explanation.however,i have to admit that i dont get your explanation,because for them to be"pieces"that beatrice can move as she wishes then they have to not be"humans". humans have their own will and decision making abilities. you can influence them,but you cant control them like you can with chess pieces.
same with game-battler,which aura explained simply has a "telekinetic link"with battler. each pf them can influence the feelings/thoughts of the other,but meta-battler cant simply control and order him. this is made abundantly clear in the last scene,as meta-battler is begging game-battler to go to the rose garden yet game-battler doesnt do anything.and even then,the only reason such telepathic link exists is because both are"battler",while beatrice doesnt have a"game beatrice"so she doesnt have a telepathic link with anyone. however,she can appear and influence them through a combination of reward promises,threatens,and hypnosis.

after all,if you can control someone the way you said then that someone is just a doll.just an npc that the computer controls. i find that very hard to accept considering everything.
Here's a possibility. Imagine that the 'Gameboard' is quite literally a game in a roleplaying game sense like Dungeons and Dragons; Beatrice, as the Gamemaster, controls everything except the players, who only control their own character, but neither side is allowed to 'break character'. So Meta-Beatrice can make Rosa decide to take Maria out to the rose garden to shut her up, but she can't make George call Shannon an ugly loser and push her in the mud (except in an illusion). Peice-Beatrice, however, doesn't have this power, so to cajole people into doing what they normally wouldn't, she needs to use bribes and threats and stuff.

Alternatively, Beatrice looks through the infinite universes and grabs the one where everyone does exactly what she wants them to for this particular story. Though how much of a difference is there?

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you mean that "young eva"never even existed inside eva's brain?that she is 100% beatrice's creation?that would lead us into dangerous territory. after all,eva talked about having"young eva"inside her with hideoshi.while i certainly agree that magical scenes arent what really happened,that was a normal scene. thus,to deny that would mean that i would have to doubt and deny every scene that piece battler isnt in,which is like 80% of the game's scenes. i honestly cant do that. first of all,if i denied all that then the game would have way too many suspects that it is impossible to even guess who the real one is. no one that battler wasnt with would have an alibi after all,no matter what we saw them do. also,the game would simply not be fun for me any longer.thus,i cant doubt every scene that battler isnt in if it didnt have any magic in it.
however,an alternative explanation occurred to me that would solve this problem. you see,what if beato simply heard eva talk to her "imaginary younger self"alone,and simply made a visual representation of what this"younger self"looks like. that will solve all the problems
You're right, it would solve the problem if Beatrice did that. I'm just trying to bring up the possibility that Beatrice might lie to Battler about things that don't involve magic. For instance, lying about what people talk about to hide what's actually a culprit and an accomplice conspiring.

For the sake of argument, what if Shannon and George's cute little moonlight engagement scene still exists as such, but after giving her the ring, they're both like "Then we'll kill them all and finally be together, my love!"

In such a situation, there's still an emotional truth in the lie (George and Shannon want to be together no matter the challenges), but hides another truth.

Quote:
actually,i just replayed that scene and the"suicide"stuff wasnt mentioned. in fact,the timeline that this discussion provided fits what i said.
-beato is summoned,a contract is made,and she gives kinzo the gold(which again,would require a magical operation that would simply not be possible if the mirror was still powerful).
-for a long while,kinzo uses the gold to rebuild the ushiromya fortunes.he wasnt in love with beatrice during that time,and thus no reason for her to not be able to go and come as she wants.
-after that long while,he falls in love with her
then she talks about the mirror and how she has been imprisoned in here for "decades"because of it. now:
-we know from another part that the mirror had lost most of its power and became incredibly weak,then kinzo,at some unspecified point,restrengthened it(and possibly modified its power to serve his goals)
-English has no"plural for two only"like other languages have. thus,"decades"could mean"2 decades",which is approximately how long current batrice has been imprisoned in rokkenjima.
-we know that the mirror originally was to prevent evil spirits from coming to the island and seal the ones already there so that they become powerless. again,if the mirror was working,and old beatrice was evil,then how was she even able to come to the island in the first place?and how was she able to use her magic from inside the island to summon the gold? either the mirror wasnt working or old beatrice wasnt an evil spirit but a good one and thus the mirror power didnt affect her.
Kinzo specifically summoning Beatrice under contract might have allowed her to show up and do the magic he specified for her to do. If he can restrengthen the mirror, he might be able to make temporary holes in its barrier.

Quote:
who is"the reader"?is this some new character we arent introduced to yet?revealing new characters is spoilers you know
It's you. It's me.

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n all seriousness,the reason i have a big problem with that explanation is that,in truly great stories,and i so far include umineko in that category,by the end of the story EVERYTHING makes sense within the story's rules. nothing isnt explainable by the end of the story.
now assume for the sake of the conversation that the end of umineko includes that no magic ever happened in any point of history in any world except the meta world. then you would have this scene unexplainable inside the story. why?because,as far as the characters and the story is concerned,there is no"reader". thus,nothing would be done with the sole purposed of tricking that which doesnt exist.
again,if this was a story whose goal is comedy or parody then 4th wall jokes fit. it is in the genre naturally and are funny when done well. but this is an extremely serious and gritty story with tons of drama and mystery. having 4th wall stuff in it simply kills the story because it isnt explainable from within. imagine watching Starwars and,after vader says"i am your father",he grabs luke and throws him towards the camera. luke hits the camera with his ass,says"ouch. hope it isnt damaged"and vader says"i am also the father of everyone watching us right now.hope you are enjoying the movie guys".how would you feel after that?that is exactly how i would feel if the only explanation for this scene was"she was pulling a trick on/trolling the reader"and there was no explanation within the rules of the story.
I can guarantee you that everything I said makes sense in the story's universe and rules, later.

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on a side point,what do you mean by"Bernkastel and Lambdadelta exist on a higher layer of reality than Beatrice and Battler"?we clearly see them in the same layer with beatrice and(presumably)battler in the tea parties,so why would they be on a higher one?
PRetty much the same way Beatrice and Battler exist on a lower layer as well. Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are in a layer above Beatrice and Battler, playing their own game over who will win, with their own stakes. They are able to move downward and talk to them, however, or possibly invite people up for a while.

It's why they inhabit a darker, less real-seeming tea room than the one Battler and Beatrice play in.

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well,it leaves me with tons of stuff that doesnt make sense. first is the point that i already explained.second is that we know that,in the meta world at least,it is undeniable that beatrice is a witch. thus,she must have learned witchcraft from"somebody". if virgilia wasnt a witch then who did beatrice learn from then?and why would she call virgilia"teacher-sama" in that case?
And if Virgilia taught her how to lie and trick people into thinking she was a witch? :P

In the Meta-World, she might be a witch purely because she says so. It seems to be a world where ideas are real.

I mean, Even BATTLER can teleport around, there.
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Old 2016-08-05, 13:02   Link #27
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Reached until after beatrice promises battler that she will train until she becomes"qualified"to be his opponent(lol)

"new witch"=sadist murderer
-sun and wind=making herself seem like the good cop and"endless eva"the bad cop.

-love the bunnies lol. especially the"Nihihi"410 one XD.

-again,teary-eyed beato is the definition of Kawaii >_<

-it is quite funny how the situation is reversed lol. from beato looking down at battler,and considering him a simple toy to play with to pass time, to battler looking down at beato,insulting her in everyway imaginable,and her begging him to accept her and promising to do everything for that. boy oh boy did we get a 180 turn XD

-reason for rudolf and kyrie going out:trying to force hideoshi to admit where the gold is.

-we dont know how long the whole thing took in reality,so most likely an argument/fight between hideoshi and rudolf/kyrie happened,eva's partner(who killed rosa before)came and killed them,hideoshi disagreed and they got into a fight that ended with hideoshi dying,then her partner snuck back into the house.when eva woke she was worried because she feared for her husband both from rudolf/kyrie and from her former partner.

-shotgun talk is an interesting contradiction. isnt beatrice supposedly capable of reflecting bullets?then how can a shotgun be dangerous?ofcourse,a possible explanation is that she can only reflect bullets when she is fully revived,like in the end of chapter 1,and not in her current unrevived state.or that she had prepared the"barriers"ronove talked about at that time. however, the fact is that the text simply states that bullets reflect on her. it doesnt put any special conditions,which should mean that it happens at anytime,so the contradiction still remains.i also find this"shotguns have anti magic properties"talk to be incredibly dumb lol.




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That is very misleading indeed. Actually, I think it'll save you some trouble if we admit that Battler seeing magic before midnight was a plot hole, even if he was somewhat drunk. This scene has been altered in the manga to where he sees no magic...he does still meet with Beatrice though.
oh. ok. thanks for clarifying that

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Yes, you are right and I stand corrected. The idea of accepting magic but still fighting on the "mystery side" feels naive to me, but maybe I've been unnecessarily stubborn with the anti-fantasy strategy. It's certainly not the only way, and not necessarily even the correct way to approach this story. I forgot whether Battler was privy to that dream scene, or if it was just bonus information for the readers...it probably was. Whether we're supposed to be in Battler's shoes or if there are different readers that these stories were supposed to reach, who knows. It's not relevant at this point.
well,there are many reasons that i believe beato wasnt the killer,including:
-if beatrice truly killed everyone then there is no game in the first place. the simple fact that she couldnt red truth 100% of battler's theories means that she wasnt the killer/s,otherwise why would she worry for a single second?but we see her worried many times
-the place they are murdered in the magical scenes isnt where they are murdered when they are discovered.
-no stories that involve resurrection have the one who will be resurrected being the one who does the killing. he may guide the killers,but he cant kill himself because he hasnt been resurrected yet.
on the other hand,i see no reason to deny magic entirely. this is a game that involves time travel,dimension travel,stopping time,etc.if someone could do all that,if someone can literally make demons his servants and kill and revive as he pleases,why would i be like"you are almighty and incredible,can kill and revive,demons are your servants,but all that is just in this dimension we are in not in other dimensions"?. no reason to believe that,and no evidence either. on the opposite,it would create far far more problems and lead me to saying really illogical theories just to,to quote the dudleys,"avoid the unbeatable,dodge the undefeatable". for example,saying that the beatrice shannon and kanon talked to yet no one else saw was a result of shannon not eating as natsuhi ordered her. yeah right,because none of us ever ever went without a meal or two yet didnt meet witches who gave us physical items to boot >_>.
so yeah,that is why i believe this combo works
and yeah,i believe there are a ton of things that we dont know yet that are necessary to"get"every scene. that is why i said there are essential parts of the puzzle that are still missing.

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You're getting a more dense experience with Umineko than most people on this board did. I started when the game was only translated up to episode 3. From there, the rest became accessible over a period of like, two years? So we had plenty of time to discuss it on the internet and refine our theories. Not gonna be the case for people starting now. Still, you have good insight on some stuff already.
very true. i just meant that i hope no one gets annoyed when he mentions somethings to me and i am like"this doesnt make sense because of x and y". i truly enjoy these discussions,but i have my brain on overdrive for umineko lol,so anything related to it i have to analyze to the core before i accept it XD

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To be fair, she turned into Eva as a teenager. She might've been in shock.
fair point.

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Interesting, but he also 'gave up' at this point in time and believed the Witch. Is it possible this fact allowed him to lose his objectivity, and be 'hypnotized' or whatever?
considering that it has already been stated that this scene is a plothole,i think it is fair for us both to give up discussing it

i will say though that i did consider a possibility that"well,11:30pm was when this scene started. maybe it didnt end at 11:59 like is implied but continued into midnight and that is when battler saw beatrice?"so i replayed the chapter, the first couple of lines talk about stuff that happened before the chapter began(him coming to the room and waiting fruitlessly).the"current events"when the chapter begins(11:30pm)is him opening a bottle and beginning to drink. everything after genji entered certainly didnt take longer than 5 minutes,so was he drinking for 25minutes minimum?i find that highly unlikely considering how the game described him chugging cup after cup of the drink. if some one who is drinking for the first time in his life(like battler admits)drank that way for 25 minutes then he would definitely be knocked out cold. the way battler acted wasnt even close to anything resembling that,so i find it unlikely that the scene took longer than half an hour.

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Here's a possibility. Imagine that the 'Gameboard' is quite literally a game in a roleplaying game sense like Dungeons and Dragons; Beatrice, as the Gamemaster, controls everything except the players, who only control their own character, but neither side is allowed to 'break character'. So Meta-Beatrice can make Rosa decide to take Maria out to the rose garden to shut her up, but she can't make George call Shannon an ugly loser and push her in the mud (except in an illusion). Peice-Beatrice, however, doesn't have this power, so to cajole people into doing what they normally wouldn't, she needs to use bribes and threats and stuff.

Alternatively, Beatrice looks through the infinite universes and grabs the one where everyone does exactly what she wants them to for this particular story. Though how much of a difference is there?
...first of all,there is no such thing as"piece beatrice". there is only one beatrice,the"meta"one. the possible exception is episode 2(and even that one is debatable as to weather it truly was a"piece beatrice"or something else).

second,meta battler doesnt control piece battler.this is made abundantly clear in rosa's death scene,as meta-battler is begging game-battler to go to the rose garden yet game-battler doesnt do anything,despite the fact that piece-battler saying that he will"go to the balcony that looks over the garden to get some fresh air and try to analyze the murders in a quiet and calming spot"is not in anyway against battler's character and thus there is no reason for him to not do it if meta battler could truly order him around.

third,if this was truly a"game" with no real humans then why would battler care?beato might as well repeat this"game"to infinity. no one is actually being hurt or dying after all. it is just an imaginary game. if a russian is playing call of duty,does he care how many russians die on his hand in the game?let alone if he isnt even the one killing them

fourth,"beatrice looking through the infinite universes until she finds one she likes"is,on its own,not enough of an explanation,because beatrice has personally interfered in each of the worlds so far. however,if we add"then she manipulates said world until it is exactly how she wants it to be" to the above explanation then it would fit well

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You're right, it would solve the problem if Beatrice did that. I'm just trying to bring up the possibility that Beatrice might lie to Battler about things that don't involve magic. For instance, lying about what people talk about to hide what's actually a culprit and an accomplice conspiring.

For the sake of argument, what if Shannon and George's cute little moonlight engagement scene still exists as such, but after giving her the ring, they're both like "Then we'll kill them all and finally be together, my love!"

In such a situation, there's still an emotional truth in the lie (George and Shannon want to be together no matter the challenges), but hides another truth.
i cant deny that this is very much a possibility. however,i can say that,if i begin to doubt all scenes that battler wasnt in even if they didnt involve magic,the game would change from "fun"to"a chore that isnt enjoyable"for me. first,like i said,,if i denied all that then the game would have way too many suspects that it is impossible to even guess who the real one is. no one that battler wasnt with would have an alibi after all,no matter what we saw them do. i wouldnt know a ton of things either. for example,who said that eva found the gold in anyway?battler didnt see that afterall. who said that kanon and jessica loved each other?battler didnt see that after all. etc.
that would make me lose enjoyment in all the scenes that battler isnt in,as i dont believe them and there is no fun and flashy magic to enjoy either.

so,while i cant logically deny what you are saying ,i simply cant continue to have fun if i started thinking like that,and since any game is about having fun and enjoyment or it isnt worth
playing,i would very much rather not consider this possibility and simply say that all murders were planned off screen in scenes that we didnt see in anyway

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Kinzo specifically summoning Beatrice under contract might have allowed her to show up and do the magic he specified for her to do. If he can restrengthen the mirror, he might be able to make temporary holes in its barrier.
fair point. however,why would kinzo,who at that point didnt love beatrice,want to keep her in the island in the first place?they made a contract that will be respected. no reason for him to force her to stay.

the current situation is that,so far,there is no evidence that old beatrice was imprisoned at all. considering that+the many things that,while not conclusive,hint at the shared love she and kinzo indulged in later,which simply wouldnt happen if kinzo was keeping her hostage against her will+my"genius kinzo wouldnt do that"argument from way back+my "3 beatrices"theory make me believe in what i stated

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It's you. It's me.
...dude. i was joking. i winked and started my actual reply by saying"in all seriousness". did you really think i was serious with that question?

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I can guarantee you that everything I said makes sense in the story's universe and rules, later.
well,this guarantee is enough for me. i will patently wait and see where the game goes in regards to scenes like this then

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PRetty much the same way Beatrice and Battler exist on a lower layer as well. Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are in a layer above Beatrice and Battler, playing their own game over who will win, with their own stakes. They are able to move downward and talk to them, however, or possibly invite people up for a while.

It's why they inhabit a darker, less real-seeming tea room than the one Battler and Beatrice play in.
but didnt beatrice in episode 1's ??? tea party welcome berncastel into "beatrice's dimension"?shouldnt that mean the ??? tea party is beatrice's area?or am i remembering that wrong?

"And if Virgilia taught her how to lie and trick people into thinking she was a witch? :P

In the Meta-World, she might be a witch purely because she says so. It seems to be a world where ideas are real.

I mean, Even BATTLER can teleport around, there. "

so everyone in the meta world can make demons their servants?can travel through dimensions?can revive and kill?and the meta world is "purgatory",which means that pretty much every dead can do all that,including controlling the demons. somehow i find that highly unlikely lol.

Last edited by FFTHEWINNER; 2016-08-05 at 13:30.
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Old 2016-08-05, 21:41   Link #28
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Quote:
-shotgun talk is an interesting contradiction. isnt beatrice supposedly capable of reflecting bullets?then how can a shotgun be dangerous?ofcourse,a possible explanation is that she can only reflect bullets when she is fully revived,like in the end of chapter 1,and not in her current unrevived state.or that she had prepared the"barriers"ronove talked about at that time. however, the fact is that the text simply states that bullets reflect on her. it doesnt put any special conditions,which should mean that it happens at anytime,so the contradiction still remains.i also find this"shotguns have anti magic properties"talk to be incredibly dumb lol.
The magic narrative seems to be that something like repelling bullets is difficult, so you need to prepare magic for it ahead of time instead of doing it on the fly. And since the mere existence of doubt or skepticism is acid to Witches, the idea that "bullets can kill anyone dead" is a powerful one that carries legitimate Antimagical power.

It also has roots in actual mythology; it was said that fairies and mythological creatures could die instantly and permanently if exposed to cold iron.

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...first of all,there is no such thing as"piece beatrice". there is only one beatrice,the"meta"one. the possible exception is episode 2(and even that one is debatable as to weather it truly was a"piece beatrice"or something else).
When I say "Piece Beatrice", I mean the iteration of her that appears on Rokkenjima instead of in the Meta-world. It's possible this Piece Beatrice has awareness of both worlds or otherwise shares Beato's mind perfectly, but it might also be part of Beatrice's illusion.

In a non-magical context, "Piece-Beatrice" would refer to anyone who is going around pretending to be her.

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second,meta battler doesnt control piece battler.this is made abundantly clear in rosa's death scene,as meta-battler is begging game-battler to go to the rose garden yet game-battler doesnt do anything,despite the fact that piece-battler saying that he will"go to the balcony that looks over the garden to get some fresh air and try to analyze the murders in a quiet and calming spot"is not in anyway against battler's character and thus there is no reason for him to not do it if meta battler could truly order him around.
He doesn't control him like a puppet, but he does clearly influence him. In episode two, Battler's own despair causes Piece Battler to laze about and say things like "It's not his turn yet."

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third,if this was truly a"game" with no real humans then why would battler care?beato might as well repeat this"game"to infinity. no one is actually being hurt or dying after all. it is just an imaginary game. if a russian is playing call of duty,does he care how many russians die on his hand in the game?let alone if he isnt even the one killing them
Even if I told you in Red Truth that the game is utterly imaginary, Battler doesn't seem to know or accept that, and even if he did, he seems utterly disgusted by how people are playing with his family and entertaining themselves with killing them.

Even with fantasy scenes where Rosa and Maria are killed more than once (which is impossible, according to him), he's still disgusted because the mere illusion of it is revoltingly disrespectful to his loved ones.

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i cant deny that this is very much a possibility. however,i can say that,if i begin to doubt all scenes that battler wasnt in even if they didnt involve magic,the game would change from "fun"to"a chore that isnt enjoyable"for me. first,like i said,,if i denied all that then the game would have way too many suspects that it is impossible to even guess who the real one is. no one that battler wasnt with would have an alibi after all,no matter what we saw them do. i wouldnt know a ton of things either. for example,who said that eva found the gold in anyway?battler didnt see that afterall. who said that kanon and jessica loved each other?battler didnt see that after all. etc.
that would make me lose enjoyment in all the scenes that battler isnt in,as i dont believe them and there is no fun and flashy magic to enjoy either.

so,while i cant logically deny what you are saying ,i simply cant continue to have fun if i started thinking like that,and since any game is about having fun and enjoyment or it isnt worth
playing,i would very much rather not consider this possibility and simply say that all murders were planned off screen in scenes that we didnt see in anyway
Yea, I was deliberately giving an extreme example. I just want you to be aware of this possibility. Beatrice won't make people act 100% out of character in her illusions, but she's very clever.

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fair point. however,why would kinzo,who at that point didnt love beatrice,want to keep her in the island in the first place?they made a contract that will be respected. no reason for him to force her to stay.
I'm pretty sure Kinzo fell in love at first sight, considering how he talks about her.

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but didnt beatrice in episode 1's ??? tea party welcome berncastel into "beatrice's dimension"?shouldnt that mean the ??? tea party is beatrice's area?or am i remembering that wrong?
She's welcoming her as a guest to her Game and her parlor, so you're partially right but partially not. The darker parlor Battler doesn't go to is like an in-between space between the parlor Battler knows and where Lambda and Bern TRULY come from.

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so everyone in the meta world can make demons their servants?can travel through dimensions?can revive and kill?and the meta world is "purgatory",which means that pretty much every dead can do all that,including controlling the demons. somehow i find that highly unlikely lol.
The Meta-World, to me, seems to be a illusion-like world where thoughts become reality, so...yes, pretty much. Are the demons real? Are the revivals?

If you can make anything happen, but none of it physically exists in the real world, is this truly magic, or are you just dreaming?
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Old 2016-08-07, 12:24   Link #29
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will post a detailed reply later. just want to mention a few things now:

reached until beatrice is "attacked by endless eva".

-Hydeoshi said"i will have to correct it again,that evil nature of yours". interesting."again". so there was a first time. wonder when that was and what happened then. a nicely hidden clue

-i wrote this paragraph yeatreday,before i continued reading: "willing to bet that a"big reveal"at the end of this episode is that all this"ruthless endless eva"stuff(and possibly even moe beatrice)were all tricks designed to make beatrice the"good witch"and make battler accept her. virgilia may be in on it too." now that is clearer than crystal. beatrice working oh so hard to revive shannon,learning her place and the"true value"of magic,then "the eeeevil endless eva"wastes all of beatrice's hardwork. oh my. could this story get anymore"good"vs"bad"?lol. most likely the"yandere eyes virgilia"that i saw in that glitched picture a while back is from when this"big reveal"is made.

-"show me your smile one more time beatrice".this phrase is further proof that the love between"old beatrice"and kinzo was mutual,as someone who was imprisoned against her will would never show a smile so incredible and so genuine as to enchant kinzo that much. that smile was shown (many times most likely)because old beato loved kinzo too.

-"when it flew into the keyhole,krauss and natsuhi were already..."what?already what?already dead?
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Old 2016-08-09, 08:29   Link #30
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finished episode 3. havent started the tea parties though.

First,glad to see that what i said was proven to be 100% correct!! i have to admit that it was a smart trick,and anyone who fully falls in it would not even think of the existance of another possibility(and judging by how many people said that chapter 3 is their favorite chapter/has an incredible twist in it,seems like a ton of people did fall in the trap,atleast until the"sign"part),but for me it was pretty obvious from the beginning lol,so,while i did enjoy moetrice(and admittedly enjoy her battle with endless eva,mostly for that incredible CG shot of her breasts ,i found some of the scenes to be quite boring because i knew that they were BS lol(especially the"golden land"scene where everyone was happy. i was thinking"come on. get this farce over with already"the whole time >_>). hope beatrice's next trick isnt as obvious

-i have to admit though that the "red truth denying witches"part did incredibly confuse me in the beginning,though after cooling down it occured to me that beatrice most likely didnt actually say anything meaningful after battler covered his ears,since "endless eva"was her creation in the first place,so she could delete it any time.

-i also have to admit that i really dont like how,after all this effort,beatrice simply gave up her acting when ange entered. she should have resisted a little,tried to act innocent and convince battler that this new intruder who no one knows is lying. her removing any semblance of acting and openly admitting her lie when ahe was oh so close to her goal just because an unknown chick interfered is dumb.heck,battler himself was begging her to tell him that ange is lying yet she refused for some reason. while not a plothole,this part is legitimately the weakest writing i have seen from ryuukishi so far.

-the one i dont get is virgilia though. i stated from the beginning that she was evil and,judging from the ending,i obviously was right. looking back though,throughout the episode she helped both battler and beatrice quite extensively(without her"schrodinger's cat"advice,battler would have given up to the"magic duel"he saw,and without her"north wind"advice beato woldnt have had this plan).why did she help battler?without her he would have given up and lost.honestly,if this ending only involved beatrice not bratrice and virgilia then i would have changed my mind and thought that virgilia either doesnt care who wins or wants both sides to stay fighting without either winning,as that would perfectly explain her actions. however,i obviously cant believe that now,which makes me wonder two things:
--why did she help battler in the first place?
--was she in cahoots with beatrice from the beginning?if so then how come the"north wind"strategy was only told to beato after the 2nd twilight?and if it was told to her before then what is the point of repeating the scene again in the 2nd twilight?especially considering that battler doesnt know anything about that advice.

-so finally ange makes her debut huh. i heard the name mentioned many times by umineko fans(though i dont know anything more about her beyond that).she shares the name with battler's step sister(or was it sister?i forgot who her mom was lol),but that one is 6years old,yet the name is certainly not a coincidence.
also,for her to get to the meta world like that means that,just like meta battler,she is a spirit not a normal human. beatrice said she was bernkastel's aid to battler.also,she is wearing a ring on her finger that reminds me of beato's ring(which signifies the wearer as the head of the ushiromyas).she is definitely homosheroy lol.

-also,beatrice told all her troops to get ready to attack when ange entered yet the only attack she did was throw a thunderbolt. why didnt she order the stakes and the siestas to attack ange?

- 07151129 is most likely a date like battler said(though i thought that before he said it lol). i believe that the last 4 numbers are actually the year date though,and that you have to move them somewhat to get the real full date(everything in umineko is a puzzle after all). for example,switching the 2nd and 4th number in each side,thus making it 05/17/1921.ofcourse,we cant solve it because we dont know any numbers that mean anything to the ushiromyas,unlike the in-game characters.

-the"wiped out black faces"appeared again,this time on natsuhi and krauss.they only appeared on 4 people though:Krauss,Natsuhi(which REALLY bothers me,since natsuhi is the only person in the entire game that i truly like. would love to have a wife like her lol),Maria,and partially Rosa. none of the others are affected. considering that,when i mentioned them the 1st time,no one was like"they are a glitch/meaningless,dont worry about it", it is clear that they have some sort of meaning. it is obviously too early for us to figure out what said meaning is though,as there are no clues what so ever.

-as for nanjo's death,i once again recall Beatrice telling Battler "You Are Incompetent". Endless Eva said in red that a human killed him. well,we knew from the beginning that endless eva is NOT a human. she is either a witch or an illusion,which means that endless eva admitted in red that she didnt kill nanjo. hello lol. how the f*** did battler not catch that??! Incompetent indeed XD.

-as to how nanjo actually died,there is a very simple answer. one of the"dead"wasnt actually dead. he went to nanjo and killed him. either nanjo heavily injured him which lead to the killer dying later,or the killer died by other means later(but before endless eva mentioned that 15 are dead),possibly by the hand of eva or jessica,possibly by a trap. there. the"unbreakable web"is broken lol.

-however,is eva truly the main killer?i still believe that isnt the case.like i said before:"i think some of battler's theories are actually big tricks on the fans by ryuukishi and arent the actual explanations. i think most people assumed that,whenever beatrice resigns,that means how battler said the murder happened is the truth. i dont believe that".i still believe that,like i said,eva was simply the master mind. we certainly saw her kill battler,and she may have killed others as well,but she didnt kill everyone. she certainly wouldnt kill hideoshi or george after all. yet both were killed.

there are theree possibilites for the other killer/s. one is that eva had a partner who killed on her behalf by her plan(who i believe to be Nanjo,especially considering the way he died and what he said before his death)). they may have faught and split later(metaphorically shown through eva fighting endless eva)when the partner killed hideoshi(partner isnt hideoshi,as hideoshi was in the room when rosa was killed. hideoshi is an accomplice though),so the partner killed george as revenge,then he was killed.
ofcourse,there is also a possibility that the"2nd killer"want actually affiliated with eva. he may have been an intended victim who faked his death in order to take revenge on eva and her family,but lost in the end when he faught her.
it is also possible that both statments were correct,that she had a partner and a supposed victim decided to take revenge. i believe this one makes sense the most if nanjo was truly eva's partner.

-eva returned alive. when the sea gulls cried there was a survivor. that...is weird.i fully believed that"no survivors"line to remain true until episode 8 when finally there would be survivors. having survivors here both kills the power of this line as an inescapable conclusion and doesnt make sense in general. eva returned?to what?to the police arresting her?to the judge making her death sentence?to the electric chair?considering how she is the only survivor of 18,and all the evidence that the police will definitely find on the island,there is no chance in hell she wouldnt be found guilty.let alone the"mountain of gold"that the only survivor"randomly found". in my opinion,i believe ryuukishi made a mistake with that announcement.

-on a side note,this is the first time that i noticed that eva's gloves are weird and mismatch. one only covers her hand while the other covers half her arm. it is a bit weird that i just noticed it though XD.

-the"cegarette butt"reasoning has a huge hole in it. hideoshi could have smoked this cegarette at any point when he was alone before eva got sick. why would we assume that it is recently smoked?he could have smoked at any time before the 2nd twilight.

-"no animals or other non humans were a factor in THIS game". like"this rokkenjima",we can conclude that animals(trained monkeys for example)or other non humans were a factor in other games,which is honestly something i considered as a possible solution for episode 2's closed rooms,since beatrice couldnt deny in red the existence of hidden doors that dont reach outside but could deny in red that any"humans"were hiding in the murder room. thus,if a trained monkey or a robot was the killer then that wouldnt be a problem. i didnt mention it at the time because i found it kinda not fitting the tone of the series,but considering this statement that theory returns as a possibility again.

-when you think about it,battler was most incompetent this episode,even more than episode 2. he was about to give up until virgilia saved him. he only solved some twilights with her help. he was about to gave up until beatrice "saved"him. then he truly gave up in everyway and beatrice"saved" him by "sacrificing" herself,then he fully lost and ate the trap hook,line,and sinker and was about to fully destroy himself and sign his death warrant until ange saved him. boy oh boy. atleast in episode 2 he managed to solve the 1st twilight on his own. here he didnt manage to do a single thing without being carried through it lol.


boy this was a lot of writing lol. i am crious about what you guys think of my thoughts and when you discovered that it was a trap when you were in my shoes,and your thoughts about this episode in general




"So, I'll say that EP3 is basically the Eva episode, but PLEASE don't skip any of her scenes or anything. She's really, really important to the story, and your opinion of her is going to change in a lot of ways. She hasn't stepped into the spotlight yet."

well,now that i finished"the Eva Episode",and eva truly and completely stepped into the spotlight,i can say that my opinion of her did indeed change. it got far worse lol. seriously,this episode proved that everything bad i said about her was only 1/10000 of what she deserves. the woman is a monster. she is evil in every possible way. i am truly curious to know why you thought my opinion on her is going to improve in anyway based on what she did this episode aura :/

"The magic narrative seems to be that something like repelling bullets is difficult, so you need to prepare magic for it ahead of time instead of doing it on the fly. And since the mere existence of doubt or skepticism is acid to Witches, the idea that "bullets can kill anyone dead" is a powerful one that carries legitimate Antimagical power.

It also has roots in actual mythology; it was said that fairies and mythological creatures could die instantly and permanently if exposed to cold iron."

ok. this makes sense. however,our main contradiction still stands. beatrice is supposedly able to reflect bullets at all times(as no"Special conditions"were attached to that statement),so how come she fears them now?

"When I say "Piece Beatrice", I mean the iteration of her that appears on Rokkenjima instead of in the Meta-world. It's possible this Piece Beatrice has awareness of both worlds or otherwise shares Beato's mind perfectly, but it might also be part of Beatrice's illusion.

In a non-magical context, "Piece-Beatrice" would refer to anyone who is going around pretending to be her."

if that is what you mean the i think simply "beatrice"is more suitable,as saying"piece x" makes a clear distinction between it and its"meta"version,a distinction that isnt proven to be the case here at all.

"He doesn't control him like a puppet, but he does clearly influence him. In episode two, Battler's own despair causes Piece Battler to laze about and say things like "It's not his turn yet."

which could be explained by them simply sharing feelings with each other through telepathic means,or because,since they are both different iterations of"battler",it is natural for them to have the same feelings and reactions to events. meta battler might influence his mentality through his shared emotional link,but,as we saw,he cant make piece battler do anything to help meta battler in anyway even if it doesnt go against his nature.

"Even if I told you in Red Truth that the game is utterly imaginary, Battler doesn't seem to know or accept that, and even if he did, he seems utterly disgusted by how people are playing with his family and entertaining themselves with killing them.

Even with fantasy scenes where Rosa and Maria are killed more than once (which is impossible, according to him), he's still disgusted because the mere illusion of it is revoltingly disrespectful to his loved ones."

fair point,but when you can travel dimensions as you wish why not simply pick one and affect it as you wish?insead of having incredibly complicated AI mimic the real people,and risk the possibility of battler discovering that they arent real,you already have access to the"real people"as much times as you wish. the easy route is the best route here

"Yea, I was deliberately giving an extreme example. I just want you to be aware of this possibility. Beatrice won't make people act 100% out of character in her illusions, but she's very clever."

thanks for the note

"I'm pretty sure Kinzo fell in love at first sight, considering how he talks about her."

actually,beatrice herself said he didnt. in the shannon conversation,after she talked about how he used the gold to build his fortune for a long time,she said the following:
"and in the end,kinzo,who had obtained everything that a human can desire,decided to search for the truth of this world. for the one element that make up this world". beatrice had previously stated that Love is,indeed,that one element. this means that beato clearly stated that kinzo didnt begin to fall in love with her until after he fully built his fortune,which took him many many years(20 years by battler's count .

"She's welcoming her as a guest to her Game and her parlor, so you're partially right but partially not. The darker parlor Battler doesn't go to is like an in-between space between the parlor Battler knows and where Lambda and Bern TRULY come from."

ok. it being an inbetween space that still falls under beatrice's control does make sense. however,you say that battler doesnt go to,yet we see berncastel talk to someone who is presumably battler there. is there like a video camera and battler is watching this from his part of the meta realm?or is that indeed not battler?

"The Meta-World, to me, seems to be a illusion-like world where thoughts become reality, so...yes, pretty much. Are the demons real? Are the revivals?

If you can make anything happen, but none of it physically exists in the real world, is this truly magic,or are you just dreaming?"

what is the"real world"?no such thing exists here. umineko has a ton of worlds,each in its own timeline/dimension,and the events on each dont affect the other in anyway. which worlds are "real" and which arent?and how can you say"this world is real and that is fake"?say some worlds had magic and some didnt,why would you automatically decide that any world that has magic is not"real"?
the"meta world" to me is like a room that has a ton of doors. each door leads to a different world. all the worlds,including the meta,are"real",even if their rules differ. earth's rules differ from mars's,but both are real
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Old 2016-08-09, 12:31   Link #31
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Quote:
-i also have to admit that i really dont like how,after all this effort,beatrice simply gave up her acting when ange entered. she should have resisted a little,tried to act innocent and convince battler that this new intruder who no one knows is lying. her removing any semblance of acting and openly admitting her lie when ahe was oh so close to her goal just because an unknown chick interfered is dumb.heck,battler himself was begging her to tell him that ange is lying yet she refused for some reason. while not a plothole,this part is legitimately the weakest writing i have seen from ryuukishi so far.
Look very closely at that moment. Her face twists, turns sad, then teary, then angry. There's something going on there that wasn't spelled out in the text.

It's not weak writing, it's foreshadowing. The Tea Parties hint at what's going on, here.

Quote:
-the one i dont get is virgilia though. i stated from the beginning that she was evil and,judging from the ending,i obviously was right. looking back though,throughout the episode she helped both battler and beatrice quite extensively(without her"schrodinger's cat"advice,battler would have given up to the"magic duel"he saw,and without her"north wind"advice beato woldnt have had this plan).why did she help battler?without her he would have given up and lost.honestly,if this ending only involved beatrice not bratrice and virgilia then i would have changed my mind and thought that virgilia either doesnt care who wins or wants both sides to stay fighting without either winning,as that would perfectly explain her actions. however,i obviously cant believe that now,which makes me wonder two things:
--why did she help battler in the first place?
--was she in cahoots with beatrice from the beginning?if so then how come the"north wind"strategy was only told to beato after the 2nd twilight?and if it was told to her before then what is the point of repeating the scene again in the 2nd twilight?especially considering that battler doesnt know anything about that advice.
What if she legitimately wants to help Battler AND Beatrice? The North Wind and Sun strategy was necessary to make Battler continue playing the game, and Battler needed the trick revealed to him in the end or he'd lose.

Quote:
-so finally ange makes her debut huh. i heard the name mentioned many times by umineko fans(though i dont know anything more about her beyond that).she shares the name with battler's step sister(or was it sister?i forgot who her mom was lol),but that one is 6years old,yet the name is certainly not a coincidence.
also,for her to get to the meta world like that means that,just like meta battler,she is a spirit not a normal human. beatrice said she was bernkastel's aid to battler.also,she is wearing a ring on her finger that reminds me of beato's ring(which signifies the wearer as the head of the ushiromyas).she is definitely homosheroy lol.
To clarify, Ange is Rudolf's child with Kyrie, while Battler was raised by him and Asumu, his first wife.

Quote:

- 07151129 is most likely a date like battler said(though i thought that before he said it lol). i believe that the last 4 numbers are actually the year date though,and that you have to move them somewhat to get the real full date(everything in umineko is a puzzle after all). for example,switching the 2nd and 4th number in each side,thus making it 05/17/1921.ofcourse,we cant solve it because we dont know any numbers that mean anything to the ushiromyas,unlike the in-game characters.
The arrangement is very deliberate, or else rearranging it is arbitrary. If it's a pair of dates, then 07/15 and 11/29 mean something. Presumably, Battler's birthday and something else.

Quote:
-as for nanjo's death,i once again recall Beatrice telling Battler "You Are Incompetent". Endless Eva said in red that a human killed him. well,we knew from the beginning that endless eva is NOT a human. she is either a witch or an illusion,which means that endless eva admitted in red that she didnt kill nanjo. hello lol. how the f*** did battler not catch that??! Incompetent indeed XD.
I believe she clarified that a witch can be described as 'human' (just one with magic powers) for the sake of denying robots, traps, or silly nonsense. Rather, think of it as "a person did it."

Quote:
there are theree possibilites for the other killer/s. one is that eva had a partner who killed on her behalf by her plan(who i believe to be Nanjo,especially considering the way he died and what he said before his death)). they may have faught and split later(metaphorically shown through eva fighting endless eva)when the partner killed hideoshi(partner isnt hideoshi,as hideoshi was in the room when rosa was killed. hideoshi is an accomplice though),so the partner killed george as revenge,then he was killed.
ofcourse,there is also a possibility that the"2nd killer"want actually affiliated with eva. he may have been an intended victim who faked his death in order to take revenge on eva and her family,but lost in the end when he faught her.
it is also possible that both statments were correct,that she had a partner and a supposed victim decided to take revenge. i believe this one makes sense the most if nanjo was truly eva's partner.
Nanjo's not really a possible candidate; he was on the second floor of the guesthouse the entire time and would have been noticed sneaking up and down the stairs, and being so old, leaving out the second story windows isn't possible.

Though, he's very clearly the one who locked the window behind George.

Quote:
-eva returned alive. when the sea gulls cried there was a survivor. that...is weird.i fully believed that"no survivors"line to remain true until episode 8 when finally there would be survivors. having survivors here both kills the power of this line as an inescapable conclusion and doesnt make sense in general. eva returned?to what?to the police arresting her?to the judge making her death sentence?to the electric chair?considering how she is the only survivor of 18,and all the evidence that the police will definitely find on the island,there is no chance in hell she wouldnt be found guilty.let alone the"mountain of gold"that the only survivor"randomly found". in my opinion,i believe ryuukishi made a mistake with that announcement.
Hey, just because she survived doesn't mean she's getting a happy ending. But she 'won' Beatrice's game. She found the gold and got out alive.

Quote:

-the"cegarette butt"reasoning has a huge hole in it. hideoshi could have smoked this cegarette at any point when he was alone before eva got sick. why would we assume that it is recently smoked?he could have smoked at any time before the 2nd twilight.
He kept the cigarette butt in his pocket for so long, even though there's trash cans all over the house? Unlikely. If he kept it in his pocket it means he didn't want it found.

Quote:

-"no animals or other non humans were a factor in THIS game". like"this rokkenjima",we can conclude that animals(trained monkeys for example)or other non humans were a factor in other games,which is honestly something i considered as a possible solution for episode 2's closed rooms,since beatrice couldnt deny in red the existence of hidden doors that dont reach outside but could deny in red that any"humans"were hiding in the murder room. thus,if a trained monkey or a robot was the killer then that wouldnt be a problem. i didnt mention it at the time because i found it kinda not fitting the tone of the series,but considering this statement that theory returns as a possibility again.
FFTHEWINNER, I hate to spoil you, but i'm just gonna say that there's no trained monkeys involved in this murders, lol. Please take this as applying to all games this once, for your own sanity.

Quote:
well,now that i finished"the Eva Episode",and eva truly and completely stepped into the spotlight,i can say that my opinion of her did indeed change. it got far worse lol. seriously,this episode proved that everything bad i said about her was only 1/10000 of what she deserves. the woman is a monster. she is evil in every possible way. i am truly curious to know why you thought my opinion on her is going to improve in anyway based on what she did this episode aura :/
There's more spotlight time to come too, btw.

But I never technically said it'd be 'better', just broader. You were initially writing her off as fairly irrelevant, if I recall.

Though do bear in mind that she might not be as bad as she seems even here; after all, "Eva being the killer" is supported by Beato's magical lies.

Quote:
ok. this makes sense. however,our main contradiction still stands. beatrice is supposedly able to reflect bullets at all times(as no"Special conditions"were attached to that statement),so how come she fears them now?
Eva=Beatrice fears then before she's completed her 'birth' through the ritual, and Beatrice lost most of her powers. Could be that.

Quote:
which could be explained by them simply sharing feelings with each other through telepathic means,or because,since they are both different iterations of"battler",it is natural for them to have the same feelings and reactions to events. meta battler might influence his mentality through his shared emotional link,but,as we saw,he cant make piece battler do anything to help meta battler in anyway even if it doesnt go against his nature.
It's a little of both, honestly. He does clearly influence him as will become more and more apparently; Battler doesn't seem to realize the rules of what he can do at this point, though.

Quote:
fair point,but when you can travel dimensions as you wish why not simply pick one and affect it as you wish?insead of having incredibly complicated AI mimic the real people,and risk the possibility of battler discovering that they arent real,you already have access to the"real people"as much times as you wish. the easy route is the best route here
There's not really a difference. When there's infinite universes, making one up is the exact same as describing one that really exists.

Quote:
ok. it being an inbetween space that still falls under beatrice's control does make sense. however,you say that battler doesnt go to,yet we see berncastel talk to someone who is presumably battler there. is there like a video camera and battler is watching this from his part of the meta realm?or is that indeed not battler?
Battler has no memory of the place. Perhaps she whispered into his ear across planes of existence, or perhaps she was speaking to the player. Or maybe both. Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are basically almost gods.

Quote:
what is the"real world"?no such thing exists here. umineko has a ton of worlds,each in its own timeline/dimension,and the events on each dont affect the other in anyway. which worlds are "real" and which arent?and how can you say"this world is real and that is fake"?say some worlds had magic and some didnt,why would you automatically decide that any world that has magic is not"real"?
the"meta world" to me is like a room that has a ton of doors. each door leads to a different world. all the worlds,including the meta,are"real",even if their rules differ. earth's rules differ from mars's,but both are real
Sure, but what I'm getting at here is that the Meta-World's rules are based on Platonic Idealism. It's made of ideas. Those ideas might be true or false, but they're what makes up its substance. Whether Beatrice is real or a lie, you can talk to her there. Whether people are alive or dead, you can meet them.

Truth can cut illusions like a sword, or choke the air out of your throat like a red web...
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Old 2016-08-09, 13:49   Link #32
FFTHEWINNER
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just want to mention real quick my thoughts and anger on the tea parties(as i just finished them)then will do a detailed reply later. feel free to reply to those thoughts too,so that i can reply to everything all at once


-i really dont like this plot twist. beatrice is lambda's servant?she wasnt originally a witch? da f*** does that mean. how can kinzo summon her if she wasnt a witch?what about rosa's flashback?episode 2's beginning?this doesnt make any f***ing sense.also,there goes all the respect i had for beatrice.

-thought the "normal tea party"has humans while"???tea party"doesnt(that is even its description,"the party for those who arent human"),but this"normal" tea party only had witches. it might as well have been a ???tea party lol.yet "???"tea party mostly had humans. i somehow suspect someone missed up which tea party should be placed in which category >_>.

-somebody needs to tell ryuukishi that the soviets dont exist in 1998 >_>.

-"unfortunate accident"??!! what kinda crap is that??!! this is what he used to explain how eva wasnt arrested?? this is crap. this is a plothole the size of mountain f***ing everest. what kinda police would be like"oh. unfortunate accident.nothingwrongwithat."what about the bodies?death analysis?clues?traps?everything????!!!. sorry but this is crap.plain and simple crap. this isnt jumping the shark.it is putting 10 sharks right after each other and jumping all of them.

-and no. eva surviving isnt "needed for this scene".if all died we would have a rich child ange who is incredibly lonely because no one is left for her whatsoever. add some"guardians"(as ange couldnt get the ushiromya money until she is 18,she has to have a guardian until then)who want the money and couldnt care less about her,include some"friends"/"lover"who she discovers only "befriended"/"loved" her because of her money,maybe even an assassination attempt from kyrie's family because they want the inheritance,and you would have a perfect recipe for ange to still want to suicide and see her family without pulling this garbage about eva surviving and the police accepting the"unfortunate accident"explanation.

-oh,and f*** eva to all hell. seriously,how can anyone on earth like this bitch in any way i will never know.

-so,the reason ange could reach meta battler is that she suicided,thus freeing her soul and becoming"Meta Ange"like"Meta Battler". interesting. as for her becoming a witch,probably an ass pull like endless eva.

sp:seems like Ange has battler's catchphrase. guess she heard him say it when she was little and it stuck in her brain. would be funny to see a stereo"Dame Da"though XD.
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Old 2016-08-09, 20:18   Link #33
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER View Post
First,glad to see that what i said was proven to be 100% correct!! i have to admit that it was a smart trick,and anyone who fully falls in it would not even think of the existance of another possibility(and judging by how many people said that chapter 3 is their favorite chapter/has an incredible twist in it,seems like a ton of people did fall in the trap,atleast until the"sign"part),but for me it was pretty obvious from the beginning lol,so,while i did enjoy moetrice(and admittedly enjoy her battle with endless eva,mostly for that incredible CG shot of her breasts ,i found some of the scenes to be quite boring because i knew that they were BS lol(especially the"golden land"scene where everyone was happy. i was thinking"come on. get this farce over with already"the whole time >_>). hope beatrice's next trick isnt as obvious
To bad you got spoiled for this reveal because of the glitch. For most people myself included it was very convincing that Beatrice suddenly turned good. They kept going with the farce for such a ling time and Beatrice seemed to go to such extremes to convince Battler, that it was very effective in lowering the readers guard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER View Post
just want to mention real quick my thoughts and anger on the tea parties(as i just finished them)then will do a detailed reply later. feel free to reply to those thoughts too,so that i can reply to everything all at once


-i really dont like this plot twist. beatrice is lambda's servant?she wasnt originally a witch? da f*** does that mean. how can kinzo summon her if she wasnt a witch?what about rosa's flashback?episode 2's beginning?this doesnt make any f***ing sense.also,there goes all the respect i had for beatrice.

-thought the "normal tea party"has humans while"???tea party"doesnt(that is even its description,"the party for those who arent human"),but this"normal" tea party only had witches. it might as well have been a ???tea party lol.yet "???"tea party mostly had humans. i somehow suspect someone missed up which tea party should be placed in which category >_>.

-somebody needs to tell ryuukishi that the soviets dont exist in 1998 >_>.

-"unfortunate accident"??!! what kinda crap is that??!! this is what he used to explain how eva wasnt arrested?? this is crap. this is a plothole the size of mountain f***ing everest. what kinda police would be like"oh. unfortunate accident.nothingwrongwithat."what about the bodies?death analysis?clues?traps?everything????!!!. sorry but this is crap.plain and simple crap. this isnt jumping the shark.it is putting 10 sharks right after each other and jumping all of them.

-and no. eva surviving isnt "needed for this scene".if all died we would have a rich child ange who is incredibly lonely because no one is left for her whatsoever. add some"guardians"(as ange couldnt get the ushiromya money until she is 18,she has to have a guardian until then)who want the money and couldnt care less about her,include some"friends"/"lover"who she discovers only "befriended"/"loved" her because of her money,maybe even an assassination attempt from kyrie's family because they want the inheritance,and you would have a perfect recipe for ange to still want to suicide and see her family without pulling this garbage about eva surviving and the police accepting the"unfortunate accident"explanation.

-oh,and f*** eva to all hell. seriously,how can anyone on earth like this bitch in any way i will never know.

-so,the reason ange could reach meta battler is that she suicided,thus freeing her soul and becoming"Meta Ange"like"Meta Battler". interesting. as for her becoming a witch,probably an ass pull like endless eva.

sp:seems like Ange has battler's catchphrase. guess she heard him say it when she was little and it stuck in her brain. would be funny to see a stereo"Dame Da"though XD.
It is difficult to clear up some of your confusing without giving spoiler, but it still stands that everything your currently think doesn't make sense, is a jump the shark moment or is an ass pull will all make sense eventually.

You are just missing a lot of information.


I was wondering if you read the TIPS which you get after finishing an episode. Often they are very informatieve, they give information you won't find explicitly stated in the story.

A TIP from Episode 3 explains for example how the ascension of a witch works and a TIP from Episodes 4 will explain the difference between Beatrice and Lambda and Bern.

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2016-08-09 at 21:00.
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Old 2016-08-10, 09:22   Link #34
Jaden
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Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER View Post
-i really dont like this plot twist. beatrice is lambda's servant?she wasnt originally a witch? da f*** does that mean. how can kinzo summon her if she wasnt a witch?what about rosa's flashback?episode 2's beginning?this doesnt make any f***ing sense.also,there goes all the respect i had for beatrice.
Well, I wouldn't go as far as to call Beatrice a servant, but because of [[ ]], she doesn't have much choice but to entertain the other witches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER View Post
-"unfortunate accident"??!! what kinda crap is that??!! this is what he used to explain how eva wasnt arrested?? this is crap. this is a plothole the size of mountain f***ing everest. what kinda police would be like"oh. unfortunate accident.nothingwrongwithat."what about the bodies?death analysis?clues?traps?everything????!!!. sorry but this is crap.plain and simple crap. this isnt jumping the shark.it is putting 10 sharks right after each other and jumping all of them.
Of course they investigated, but still nobody understands what happened. That's probably because [[ ]] and the [[ ]]. Aw hell, I can't say anything without spoiling. Just go to ep 4.

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Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER View Post
-and no. eva surviving isnt "needed for this scene".
True. Though if Eva didn't survive, then likely the family assets would have gone to other people and Ange would've been left with almost nothing. She was a 6yo orphan at the time, after all. Also Eva surviving is what adds a layer of mystery in the "real world". If there really were no survivors, people would have no leg to stand on when trying to explain the incident.
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Old 2016-08-10, 09:31   Link #35
FFTHEWINNER
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To bad you got spoiled for this reveal because of the glitch. For most people myself included it was very convincing that Beatrice suddenly turned good. They kept going with the farce for such a ling time and Beatrice seemed to go to such extremes to convince Battler, that it was very effective in lowering the readers guard.
while i cant deny that that glitch was a part of the reason,i genuinely believe that i would have realised it soon even without the glitch. i mean,beato recieved the"north wind and sun" strategy and then she started going all moe immediately. the killer for me was,since i knew for a fact that endless eva didnt exist,her mocking,insulting,and later attacking beato wouldnt make any sense unless beato made her do it for the goal of getting closer to battler and making him drop his guard. without the glitch i may not have realised that virgilia is evil too,but i am pretty certain i would have realised that beatrice is lying.

Quote:
It is difficult to clear up some of your confusing without giving spoiler, but it still stands that everything your currently think doesn't make sense, is a jump the shark moment or is an ass pull will all make sense eventually.

You are just missing a lot of information.
first,i wrote that directly after i finished the tea parties,so the anger was still fresh in my mind lol. sorry for the anger fit XD
well,most obvious thought,which i considered before the ending,is that eva isnt really the culprit. however,what happened between her and battler is undeniable,which means that she openly admitted to him that she was the main murderer and then shot him. there is no wiggle room at all here. she killed battler and admitted to the rest.

let us assume ep 3's police found the same thing that ep1's police found. a horrifing mess of parts of bodies with gore and destruction all around. how the f*** would"unfortunate accident"even be thought of as an explanation?? the only survivour would be interrogated to death,and no way that any explanation eva provides for such a scene would be convincing. this should be a dead end.

still,i will believe in your statements and wait for the game to explain

sp:about"endless eva",i noticed that the game actually calls her"eva-beatrice",and most players either say that or"evatrice",but for some reason"endless eva" sounds better to me than the other names lol. maybe because i didnt accept her as beatrices equal at all
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Old 2016-08-10, 10:05   Link #36
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Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER View Post
let us assume ep 3's police found the same thing that ep1's police found. a horrifing mess of parts of bodies with gore and destruction all around. how the f*** would"unfortunate accident"even be thought of as an explanation?? the only survivour would be interrogated to death,and no way that any explanation eva provides for such a scene would be convincing. this should be a dead end.
One correction it was stated at the end of Episode 1 that almost nothing was found of the bodies. Only someones jaw was found if I remember correctly. That is not much to work with. More will be explained in Episode 4.
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Old 2016-08-10, 10:11   Link #37
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Jaden replied while i was writing my reply lol. didnt notice his post until now
Quote:
Well, I wouldn't go as far as to call Beatrice a servant, but because of [[ ]], she doesn't have much choice but to entertain the other witches.

Of course they investigated, but still nobody understands what happened. That's probably because [[ ]] and the [[ ]]. Aw hell, I can't say anything without spoiling. Just go to ep 4.
will go lol,though will take a break for a day or two first

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True. Though if Eva didn't survive, then likely the family assets would have gone to other people and Ange would've been left with almost nothing. She was a 6yo orphan at the time, after all. Also Eva surviving is what adds a layer of mystery in the "real world". If there really were no survivors, people would have no leg to stand on when trying to explain the incident.
it was explicitly stated that,if everyone died,the fortune would have transferred to ange,and if ange died to kyrie's family. ofcourse,ange being underage would mean that someone from kyrie's family will become her guardian until she is 18,but legally she is guarenteed the inheretance.
remember episode1's ending. a message or something similar is enough even with no survivors.heck, even if no such thing existed,the horrific state of the dead people is enough to make it incredibly mysterious for people on the"outside".

also,all i wrote in the above post

EDIT: ok. twice in a row! lol

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One correction it was stated at the end of Episode 1 that almost nothing was found of the bodies. Only someones jaw was found if I remember correctly. That is not much to work with. More will be explained in Episode 4.
actually,the police found many parts of bodies,including maria's jaw. the only ones they didnt find a trace of are the kids other than maria(Battler,jessica,and george. AKA the 3 who"went to the golden land"with maria)

oh,and i always read the tips. they are quite interesting and enjoyable
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Old 2016-08-10, 10:29   Link #38
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER View Post
will go lol,though will take a break for a day or two first
I'm looking forward to your thoughts on Episode 4

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actually,the police found many parts of bodies,including maria's jaw. the only ones they didnt find a trace of are the kids other than maria(Battler,jessica,and george. AKA the 3 who"went to the golden land"with maria)
In that case seems I miss remembered that part.
It has been some time since I read Epsiode 1.
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Old 2016-08-10, 10:48   Link #39
Jaden
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Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER View Post
it was explicitly stated that,if everyone died,the fortune would have transferred to ange,and if ange died to kyrie's family. ofcourse,ange being underage would mean that someone from kyrie's family will become her guardian until she is 18,but legally she is guarenteed the inheretance.
Yeah, legally that is the case. But unfortunately, there isn't anyone alive that would give a shit about Ange, only lots of people who would like to have her money. So let's say they appointed some trustee or something, and Ange would make it to 18 years old. I could see something like this happening:

Ange: Hey I'm 18. Gimme my inheritance.
TRUSTEE: Okay, most of your family was in debt but some of them had some money on their accounts. Should be enough to pay for your college at least.
Ange: Huh? Then what about the companies? Grandfather owned a ton and his children were all businesspeople, too.
TRUSTEE: Some went bankrupt, others were sold and we used the money to, uhh...pay off debts and stuff.
Ange: You're full of shit. I'll sue you and get the state to give me my money.
GUARDIAN: Ange-chan, aren't you so sad about your family's deaths that you might even jump off a rooftop or something?
Ange: Huh?
GUARDIAN: Nevermind. It's a nice day, so let's go for a drive to Tokyo Bay!
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Old 2016-08-10, 11:13   Link #40
AuraTwilight
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-i really dont like this plot twist. beatrice is lambda's servant?she wasnt originally a witch? da f*** does that mean. how can kinzo summon her if she wasnt a witch?what about rosa's flashback?episode 2's beginning?this doesnt make any f***ing sense.also,there goes all the respect i had for beatrice.
Lambda is Beato's patron the same way Bern is ours. And maybe Kinzo didn't summon a supernatural being, and maybe Shannon's deal has a non-supernatural allegory, and maybe Rosa met an ordinary human Kinzo was keeping trapped.

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-thought the "normal tea party"has humans while"???tea party"doesnt(that is even its description,"the party for those who arent human"),but this"normal" tea party only had witches. it might as well have been a ???tea party lol.yet "???"tea party mostly had humans. i somehow suspect someone missed up which tea party should be placed in which category >_>.
It's just how they should be read in narrative order. Putting Ange's 1998 snippet first doesn't really end the episode off nicely.

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-"unfortunate accident"??!! what kinda crap is that??!! this is what he used to explain how eva wasnt arrested?? this is crap. this is a plothole the size of mountain f***ing everest. what kinda police would be like"oh. unfortunate accident.nothingwrongwithat."what about the bodies?death analysis?clues?traps?everything????!!!. sorry but this is crap.plain and simple crap. this isnt jumping the shark.it is putting 10 sharks right after each other and jumping all of them.
There's an explanation.

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-and no. eva surviving isnt "needed for this scene".if all died we would have a rich child ange who is incredibly lonely because no one is left for her whatsoever. add some"guardians"(as ange couldnt get the ushiromya money until she is 18,she has to have a guardian until then)who want the money and couldnt care less about her,include some"friends"/"lover"who she discovers only "befriended"/"loved" her because of her money,maybe even an assassination attempt from kyrie's family because they want the inheritance,and you would have a perfect recipe for ange to still want to suicide and see her family without pulling this garbage about eva surviving and the police accepting the"unfortunate accident"explanation.
No, Eva's critically necessary, as you'll see in Episode 4.

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-so,the reason ange could reach meta battler is that she suicided,thus freeing her soul and becoming"Meta Ange"like"Meta Battler". interesting. as for her becoming a witch,probably an ass pull like endless eva.
Not quite, though there is suicide symbolism here.
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