(L) Vivy -Fluorite Eye’s Song-

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

Unfortunately this has the same problem as 99% of time travel stories, the original cause cannot be Vivy, as she was to solve it after it was a known problem.

Maybe the original cause wasn't Vivy per se, but maybe the underlying reason, whatever that is, was the same. We'll have to wait and see.

Also, we should consider the possibility that the real-life Matsumoto didn't know what exactly was the cause of the war in the first place. Maybe he simply made wrong assumptions. The Singularity Project was kind of fishy anyway. I mean the main premise of the project was that stalling android evolution would somehow stop the war. But that simply doesn't make sense. Half-baked androids who aren't advanced enough to understand the value of life are much more dangerous and likely to turn against humanity than super advanced androids who aren't much different from humans, imo.

Let's just wait and see.

[Thor's Hammer]

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

Unfortunately this has the same problem as 99% of time travel stories, the original cause cannot be Vivy, as she was to solve it after it was a known problem. You could argue the outcome just coincedentally happens to be the same but that would be very poor writing itself. Well I guess I expected something of this sort from the getgo. Divergent timelines ala Steins;Gate seem to be one of the few stories to get it to be most logical.

I'm pretty sure the original cause wasn't Vivy as Kazu-kun stated. If you recall from Episode 1, there were no AIs eerily chanting Vivy's song in the previous future we know about. This time around when the future is the present timeline, something about Vivy's song, whether it be due to a hack making AIs go berserk after hearing that song or something else, is the catalyst for the AI war.

Given that Vivy has probably been asleep for the last 15 years after it created its song in the archive, someone probably hacked it and gained access to the song, making the song the catalyst for the war as an attempt to troll Vivy or cause Vivy to suffer. I can't say I can guess the reason for this happening, but I do not believe that Vivy caused the AI war. It's almost certainly due to a hack as Vivy's emblem was flashing red even though Vivy was asleep, which shows that someone or something was up to no good.

[Ragashingo]

Yeah… we have to account for the original war. We more or less improved things between AI and humans (Better AI naming law, much better Sunrise crash with no deaths, less Android parts from Metal Float, no string of AI suicides) but we still have the war. Why?

The one wildcard I can think of is Terrorists Boy’s revelation and tech from the future. What’s up with that?

[Eater of All]

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

Unfortunately this has the same problem as 99% of time travel stories, the original cause cannot be Vivy, as she was to solve it after it was a known problem. You could argue the outcome just coincedentally happens to be the same but that would be very poor writing itself. Well I guess I expected something of this sort from the getgo. Divergent timelines ala Steins;Gate seem to be one of the few stories to get it to be most logical.

Most time travel anime nowadays adopt some form of parallel universe mechanism, so I wouldn't be surprised if as others say it's a different universe, just presented similarly for the shock factor. The original universe was shown to be in a such a bad state that I'm not sure it's really recoverable from anyway, from a writing point of view.

Although more generally, you seem to be implying that time travel stories that apply the self-consistency principle are inherently illogical. I vehemently disagree, but I won't argue unless it comes into play next ep (I've had enough of those arguments since the Haruhi days).

[Alchemist007]

Originally Posted by Eater of All

Although more generally, you seem to be implying that time travel stories that apply the self-consistency principle are inherently illogical.

If you mean the 'self-correcting' timeline, yes. It's what stops me short of giving S;G even more praise.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Ragashingo

Yeah… we have to account for the original war. We more or less improved things between AI and humans (Better AI naming law, much better Sunrise crash with no deaths, less Android parts from Metal Float, no string of AI suicides) but we still have the war. Why?

I don't think we can say that for certain. To start with with, we don't really know what caused the original war in the first place. We only know what Matsumoto told Diva which was pretty vague and unclear. Diva and Matsumoto changed things, but we don't know if those changes were for the better in the long run.

[Thor's Hammer]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I don't think we can say that for certain. To start with with, we don't really know what caused the original war in the first place. We only know what Matsumoto told Diva which was pretty vague and unclear. Diva and Matsumoto changed things, but we don't know if those changes were for the better in the long run.

Well, AI Matsumoto claimed, however correct or incorrect that may actually be, that one of the factors that led to the war was conflict between AIs and humans. They have successfully reduced the number of casualties in every scenario in which Toak was involved. So on the surface based on the results they've achieved, AI Matsumoto definitely has fodder and grounds for saying that they improved the situation in the current timeline. Even if it wasn't actually conflict between AI and humans that caused the war but a rogue hacker, I'd still say that overall, one of the facets of the mission was successful in that they reduced the amount of anti-AI sentiment by preventing the crash of the Sunrise Hotel.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Thor's Hammer

Well, AI Matsumoto claimed, however correct or incorrect that may actually be, that one of the factors that led to the war was conflict between AIs and humans.

And that's why I mean by vague and unclear. Saying there was conflict between AIs and humans doesn't explain anything. Conflict can arise for any reason. Matsumoto had a list of specific moments in time that supposedly caused that conflict somehow, but that's pretty sketchy. And I don't buy the "rogue hacker" explanation. I think it's more plausible and overall more meaningful if the androids are genuinely trying to destroy humanity.

I'd still say that overall, one of the facets of the mission was successful in that they reduced the amount of anti-AI sentiment by preventing the crash of the Sunrise Hotel.

That didn't make things easier for the androids though. They were still treated like crap. Even the researchers working on android development treated them as disposable objects. Did you already forget what they did to Grace, for instance? None of what Matsumoto and Diva did really helped the androids in any meaningful way. If anything, by stalling android evolution they probably made things worse, so it doesn't surprise me they couldn't stop the war.

[moridin84]

I'm finding this anime to be rather dull. It's hard to convince myself to keep watching.

The anime isn't half as clever or thought-provoking as it thinks it is. So the drawn-out conversations are really boring.

Vivy's "I don't understand what it means it means to put your heart into singing" has gotten tedious. All it is is her asking that question every episode, saying "I don't know" without any interesting thought processes around it.

All the different arcs were disconnected from each other with very few characters moving from one to the other.

The guy from Toak was supposed to be the connecting factor for all these other stories but he was just a pathetic guy that Vivy was always saving. His reason for hating AI was just as pathetic as he is. He ended up obsessed with Vivy but she never really talked to him, even in the previous arc it was Diva he talked to.

All this time it has been really unclear that Vivy has made any real changes other than saving or killing a few people. I never got the impression that real changes has been made to the future. And now it turns out that the AI war has still happened, so has it all been meaningless?

[magnuskn]

I still like the show, but the storytelling has been left way too vague. We never got a real reason why the guy from Toak wanted to destroy all AI, just him being salty about how his teacher was treated (which should make him want to protect AI, but whatever). The causality between Vivy's and Matsumotos missions has been left way too open-ended as well. At least there has been some character growth with Matsumoto, so that I don't think anymore that he caused the AI war himself. But Vivy has been very stagnant as a character throughout the series, so much that they had to kill her and replace her with another version of herself to get her to have some emotions.

The show overall paints with too broad strokes to evoke any real fascination. It still is good enough entertainment, but its overall approach to storytelling keeps it from being great.

Anyway, seemingly we move on to Vivy being a resistance fighter with the humans against AI. If that is the direction of the rest of the show, it really makes everything before kind of a waste. Although I hope we don't end on an infinite time-loop of sending Matsumoto back again to give it another try.

[gunner56]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I still like the show, but the storytelling has been left way too vague. We never got a real reason why the guy from Toak wanted to destroy all AI, just him being salty about how his teacher was treated (which should make him want to protect AI, but whatever).

Try giving my post in the previous page of this thread a read, where I attempt to explain Kakitani's apparent goals, which changes throughout the decades, what he hates about autonomous AIs, what he hates about humans treatments of AIs, through what is revealed in episode 9, by recontextualizing some the previous episodes before the Ophelia arc.

My post is by no means definitive of what the show is telling through Kakitani, as the presentation side of this information seemed either vague on one end to complex on the other end for most viewers, but I am pretty confidant of my analysis, to say the least. Due to the way it was presented, I guess viewers cannot help but superficially view Kakitani as simply traumatized or crazy.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by gunner56

Try giving my post in the previous page of this thread a read, where I attempt to explain Kakitani's apparent goals, which changes throughout the decades, what he hates about autonomous AIs, what he hates about humans treatments of AIs, through what is revealed in episode 9, by recontextualizing some the previous episodes before the Ophelia arc.

My post is by no means definitive of what the show is telling through Kakitani, as the presentation side of this information seemed either vague on one end to complex on the other end for most viewers, but I am pretty confidant of my analysis, to say the least. Due to the way it was presented, I guess viewers cannot help but superficially view Kakitani as simply traumatized or crazy.

He comes to all those conclusions without any meaningful conversations with Vivy. Or much meaningful conversation at all.

The main sequence of events is: Vivy stops whatever his plan is -> He almost dies -> Vivy saves him -> He shouts stuff at Vivy -> Vivy ignores him and goes on with the plot.

On the space station, it was a different AI that stopped him from dying but otherwise it was the same.

Also, the rest of Toak were just faceless mooks. With Kakitani being part of Toak for extremely personal reasons, we don't know anything about Toak. The entire existence of Toak becomes just a generic bad guys organisation.

[foxbox360]

Originally Posted by Thor's Hammer

I'm pretty sure the original cause wasn't Vivy as Kazu-kun stated. If you recall from Episode 1, there were no AIs eerily chanting Vivy's song in the previous future we know about. This time around when the future is the present timeline, something about Vivy's song, whether it be due to a hack making AIs go berserk after hearing that song or something else, is the catalyst for the AI war.

Given that Vivy has probably been asleep for the last 15 years after it created its song in the archive, someone probably hacked it and gained access to the song, making the song the catalyst for the war as an attempt to troll Vivy or cause Vivy to suffer. I can't say I can guess the reason for this happening, but I do not believe that Vivy caused the AI war. It's almost certainly due to a hack as Vivy's emblem was flashing red even though Vivy was asleep, which shows that someone or something was up to no good.

imagine it Yugo who caused the Apocalypse just to get that answer from Vivy because the dude was batshit crazy in the end.

[Applehell]

Its pretty obvious the episode's end had to do what Yugo said in ep 8 which even Matsumoto brought up. Another time traveller or something other than Matsumoto has been going mucking things ensure the AI war happens. The foreshadowing has been laid and I knew that Vivy & Matsumoto would be screwed by this if something wasn't done.

I can see them back into to stop Yugo getting killed & capturing him this time to get him spill out what he knows.

[Liddo-kun]

episode 10:

Tappei, this guy sure likes baby being born in his anime. He also did it in Sigururi.

anyway, so it's the kid who is "Matsumoto". The kid who wanted to hear Vivy sing. It's amazing how long he kept visiting her.

rampaging ai's, it's time for war... all hell breaks loose. I wonder what went wrong this time?

Originally Posted by moridin84

Vivy's "I don't understand what it means it means to put your heart into singing" has gotten tedious. All it is is her asking that question every episode, saying "I don't know" without any interesting thought processes around it.

The guy from Toak was supposed to be the connecting factor for all these other stories but he was just a pathetic guy that Vivy was always saving. His reason for hating AI was just as pathetic as he is. He ended up obsessed with Vivy but she never really talked to him, even in the previous arc it was Diva he talked to.

the "put your heart into singing" does feel a bit tiring at this point. Since she was mumbling about it as early as the first episode. The start of the war thankfully removed some of my tiredness from it.

feels like the toak guy, is simply added as plot device who will delete the version of Vivy that can sing. So she goes back to "how to put your heart into singing" again. lol

Originally Posted by foxbox360

imagine it Yugo who caused the Apocalypse just to get that answer from Vivy because the dude was batshit crazy in the end.

yeah, dude was crazy.

[Ragashingo]

Ok... there's a little rumor that has been spreading since episode 10 aired. What do y'all think? Is the flippy, kicky, light-blue-haired-with-a-ponytail AI in the next time scene... Elizabeth?

Spoiler:

Personally, I vote no. It would spoil Elizabeth's redemption and sacrifice. But... we do know of an anti-ai organization that has repurposed a Sister-class AI for combat before. Could the resistance fighters we see in the Episode 11 preview be Toak?

[Ragashingo]

Episode 11

Spoiler:

So it was Archive. Who the heck let that thing get out of control? And it is Elizabeth, more or less. A backup put into a new body. Just as rowdy as ever.

So... Elizabeth has never been connected to the Archive. That's why she didn't go rogue. But what about Vivy? Is she too old to be taken over? Or is the Archive sparing her for some reason. Like, the classic "you're the one who inspired me so, let me convince you of the logic of my evil plan" sort of thing?

In a way, not a ton happened this episode. I was kinda hoping for a little less action and a little more explanation, but hopefully we're on course to end strong.

[MisaoFan]

Spoiler for Episode 11:

Is it really just me, or it did take over a dozen of episodes to suddenly realize that the Archive is the enemy all along? The beginning of episode 1 get repeated her and then Matsumoto got saved by Vivy. Introducing Yui as Yugo's daughter is a surprise when she works for Toak, much less that she's a moderate. I didn't expect Beth to come back when her data is retrieved but I don't know how. The story is starting to feel like a clusterfuck kind of, Archive revealing itself to be an enemy of the human race sounds interesting but I want to know her reasons behind it. After what happened right now, the ending will still point to Vivy sacrificing herself anyway, hoping that the war between A.I.s and humans will eventually come to an end.

[Alchemist007]

Skynet gonna Skynet, I suppose.

[Liddo-kun]

episode 11:

final boss finally revealed, and it's our mild mannered Archive. She makes a good replica of Skynet. Evil super computer on a mission to wipe out mankind. lol

there's a lot of them, maybe those ai that did not go berserk can help Vivy?

anyway, the final confrontation is here.. looking forward to next week!