One Piece - Chapter 1044 [manga]

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I don't know about it ruining the story, but it's definitely a retcon. Fanboys are grasping at straws attempting to provide evidence there was foreshadowing and all of those are just coincidences or just stuff Oda reused (like Luffy's silhouette at the end of Skypea). Concrete foreshadowing only showed up some thirty or so chapters ago with Who's who's backstory. Okay, I guess I'll also give you Hyogoro saying Luffy looked like a God in Gear 4. That's pretty much it.

I agree. It's just a portion of the story, but it is the main arc of the story involving Luffy and his DF. I'm sure most of One Piece going forward will still be good and enjoyable, this was just a big blemish for no reason really

Originally Posted by Kirihara_R

I dont know why the translator in your source omit the "hitobito" =people word in their translations ,im not saying their are wrong its just confusing .. but it doesnt matter actually , be it your source or mine Im just wondering where did you get the idea that luffy is being controlled .. ?

Yea that doesn't really matter. I'm not certain if he's controlled right now or not. The possibility is there because he was dead so the spirit of Nika and/or Joyboy may be running the show for now. We need to know how/why he came back to life first.

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I don't know about it ruining the story, but it's definitely a retcon. Fanboys are grasping at straws attempting to provide evidence there was foreshadowing and all of those are just coincidences or just stuff Oda reused (like Luffy's silhouette at the end of Skypea). Concrete foreshadowing only showed up some thirty or so chapters ago with Who's who's backstory. Okay, I guess I'll also give you Hyogoro saying Luffy looked like a God in Gear 4. That's pretty much it.

There's plenty more foreshadowing than you think. And besides, nothing has changed substantially. Call it a retcon if you want, but fact remains that other than its name and type, the Rubber fruit is still a Rubber fruit at its core.

It's really funny reading people going overboard over what is essentially just the same ability with a different name. You guys got so much free time to waste, uh

[breno.m.fis]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

that's the thing. you think you understand but you don't. that's typical with misunderstandings. I'll just quote the manga since you can't comprehend what you're reading: "the user is only limited by their imagination. putting smiles on faces far and wide. the embodiment of the warrior of liberation" you'll find out what this means in the future if you still don't get it

That's fine. Like what you want. Bad writing is bad writing. Have fun with your new loony tune character

I was frustrated a month or 2 ago back when I predicted this stuff, not that I was the first to do it. I quoted the manga above. you can choose to read it or not. that's exactly what the translation said. and yes, you ignore all of it

I expected Oda to make the retcon fit better


because it's a horrible retcon that ruins the story? the Gomu DF was clearly just an average DF that a pirate like Shanks would have found here and there. He didn't care about it like he would have the DF with "the most ridiculous power in the world"

Okay, we're not getting anywhere with this. I think it's quite presumptuous for you to judge that I don't understand what I'm reading just because I have a different reaction and acceptance level than you do, but so be it. We can agree to disagree, we each have an opinion and a taste for it, can we leave it at that?

PS: for others who read and care, be careful how you put the term "fanboy" in this, depending on your tone it sounds like you want to paint a fan who disagreed with you and liked the way the author wrote his work in a negative light, as if this fan were an inferior subcategory just for being positive in front of the author. This is wrong, uncomfortable and selfish. Thanks for understanding.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Void

And besides, nothing has changed substantially. Call it a retcon if you want, but fact remains that other than its name and type, the Rubber fruit is still a Rubber fruit at its core.

If you think nothing substantially changed then you are as clueless as back when you were vehemently arguing that it wouldn't be a mythical zoan DF. I think you didn't even think the DF would change at all. No wonder this is your take on things

Originally Posted by breno.m.fis

Okay, we're not getting anywhere with this. I think it's quite presumptuous for you to judge that I don't understand what I'm reading just because I have a different reaction and acceptance level than you do, but so be it

Do you agree that Luffy's motivation for the first 1000+ chapters was to be the most free person on the sea? That he freed others around him, and brought smiles to their faces in the process?

[breno.m.fis]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

Do you agree that Luffy's motivation for the first 1000+ chapters was to be the most free person on the sea? That he freed others around him, and brought smiles to their faces in the process?

Yes, I agree with that.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by breno.m.fis

Yes, I agree with that.

So with the new information from the Gorosei, who is responsible for those things? Luffy's original character or the DF he ate that has those same properties?

I would add that the Gorosei are important and rare characters in the story. Oda wouldn't have them talking about frivolous things. They are basically the narrator in this chapter so their description of the DF is real

[breno.m.fis]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

So with the new information from the Gorosei, who is responsible for those things? Luffy's original character or the DF he ate that has those same properties?

I would add that the Gorosei are important and rare characters in the story. Oda wouldn't have them talking about frivolous things. They are basically the narrator in this chapter so their description of the DF is real

Do you agree with me that if you put a sharp knife on someone, the knife will cut that person?

[OH&S]

I think that, going into Chapter 1044, there were legitimate fears about what a rewrite of Luffy's power would do to him as a character as well as the long running narrative and themes of the entire story. That's the underlying reason for my own hesitance: I was scared that if done poorly it could ruin the entire story:

• That Luffy could be a reincarnation or possessed
• that none of his feats in the story were truly his own
• that there was next to no foreshadowing for this revelation in over a thousand chapters
• that it would retroactively create some huge plot holes
• that if it was a broken super-powerful ability, it would ruin the rest of Luffy's fights

None of this ended up happening.

While the Gomu Gomu Fruit's name and type have changed (retconned if that's what you prefer) functionally speaking nothing has changed: its still a rubber fruit doing the things we expect the rubber fruit to do.

The Gorousei referred to it as the most ridiculous ability in the world. Not the most broken or the most overpowered or the strongest. Oda already referred to the Gomu Gomu Fruit using those exact same words so nothing's changed. Whitebeard's Gura Gura Fruit and Akainu's Magu Magu Fruit are still more offensively superior.

There is no way to read the chapter and come off thinking that Luffy is a reincarnation or possessed without misinterpreting or accepting a further massive retcon about all Zoan DFs.

TL;DR…

Elaboration

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The plot hole of the WG not ordering Luffy's death sooner still stands but the more I think about it, there was never really any opportunity in the story for them to carry it out. Anytime there was, there was interference: Aokiji, Kuma, WB pirates, Fujitora, etc.

Lastly, the foreshadowing.

TL;DR…

Foreshadowing

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by breno.m.fis

Do you agree with me that if you put a sharp knife on someone, the knife will cut that person?

So because I pointed out how you're wrong, you're resorting to death threats? You should take a page from void and just stick with trolling

Originally Posted by OH&S

Whitebeard's Gura Gura Fruit and Akainu's Magu Magu Fruit are still more offensively superior.

Imagination > earthquakes and lava

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

Imagination > earthquakes and lava

I suppose if you're speaking generally then sure. But that was true the entire time, so nothing's really changed. Still doesn't contradict my original statement.

I'm personally more interested in your take regarding this:

Originally Posted by OH&S

If you think the fruit is possessing Luffy, are you willing bite the bullet and say that all Zoan DF users are possessed/mentally influenced by their fruit (putting aside Chopper's DF which specifically provides enlightenment)?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by OH&S

I suppose if you're speaking generally then sure. But that was true the entire time, so nothing's really changed.

Luffy had the capability of unlocking the power of imagination this whole time? I bet you didn't know it through 1000+ chapters until a few days ago. The people who keep saying "nothing's changed" are just strange to me. If you like it, that's totally fine, but things have certainly changed...

I'm personally more interested in your take regarding this:

I think Oda will eventually describe it as an inherited will thing similar to Naruto which is why people are making the connection. This is yet another retcon because we never saw people's wills altered from eating their DFs. Take the CP9 characters in Water 7 for instance since we literally saw them eat the fruits, and a zoan at that. They were the exact same characters after eating the fruits +the new power. Now Oda is introducing this inherited will thing which I assume will only be for the Nika DF but who knows at this point

Are you willing to bite the bullet and admit that "putting smiles on faces far and wide" and "the embodiment of the warrior of liberation" describe Luffy's character up until now?

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

Luffy had the capability of unlocking the power of imagination this whole time? I bet you didn't know it through 1000+ chapters until a few days ago. The people who keep saying "nothing's changed" are just strange to me. If you like it, that's totally fine, but things have certainly changed...

The phrase "power of imagination" is disingenuous when describing the fruit's ability; imagination is not the ability itself but a creative mind will be able to take it further. But speaking broadly, yes. What got Luffy through pre-timeskip was the different ways he thought of using his ability. Part of the reason why I give the revelations of Gear 2nd and 3rd a pass even though they're a total asspull is because they were fun "ideas" Luffy came up with to use in battle rather than a properly trained technique. The ideas continued with Gear 4th and Haki. Gear 5th is the culmination of that.

I think Oda will eventually describe it as an inherited will thing similar to Naruto which is why people are making the connection. This is yet another retcon because we never saw people's wills altered from eating their DFs. Take the CP9 characters in Water 7 for instance since we literally saw them eat the fruits, and a zoan at that. They were the exact same characters after eating the fruits +the new power. Now Oda is introducing this inherited will thing which I assume will only be for the Nika DF but who knows at this point

Yep, like I said in my earlier post this would be another bigger retcon. But until it actually happens I'm not willing to consider it; so let's put this part of the discussion on hold.

Are you willing to bite the bullet and admit that "putting smiles on faces far and wide" and "the embodiment of the warrior of liberation" describe Luffy's character up until now?

Not the whole of his character but YES. This is again self evident. The disagreement is that I don't believe that the fruit mentally influenced him into this mindset. I think its the opposite: that Luffy while following his own convictions has ended up embodying the ideals of the true nature of his fruit.

Its speculative but if the fruit has a will of its own, maybe Luffy wound up eating it because he was the one who innately had a nature identical to what the fruit desired.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by breno.m.fis

PS: for others who read and care, be careful how you put the term "fanboy" in this, depending on your tone it sounds like you want to paint a fan who disagreed with you and liked the way the author wrote his work in a negative light, as if this fan were an inferior subcategory just for being positive in front of the author. This is wrong, uncomfortable and selfish. Thanks for understanding.

I use the term for people who quite literally worship Oda and can't handle a single criticism thrown at One Piece, even when it's valid. They tend to quickly resort to insults when contradicted. There's only one person like this here, and he seems to have calmed down quite a bit.

People are obviously free to love this development if they wish, just like others are free to hate it. Personally, I'm kinda neutral. I'm glad the DF is still a rubber fruit at its core, but I just don't really see the point of this twist other than to make Luffy even more special than he already was. And there was no need for that. More foreshadowing would have been welcome too.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by OH&S

The phrase "power of imagination" is disingenuous when describing the fruit's ability; imagination is not the ability itself but a creative mind will be able to take it further.

Being "only limited by one's imagination" is the power of imagination. It's true that this differs from person to person based on how imaginative they are, but as far as one person is concerned, it's the same thing.

But speaking broadly, yes. What got Luffy through pre-timeskip was the different ways he thought of using his ability.

Can't the same be said about other DF users who show creativity? Take Katakuri for instance. He grew multiple arms, turned into a rolling donut, coated his attacks with haki, etc... why doesn't he have a DF that can unlock the power of his imagination then?

Not the whole of his character but YES. This is again self evident. The disagreement is that I don't believe that the fruit mentally influenced him into this mindset. I think its the opposite: that Luffy while following his own convictions has ended up embodying the ideals of the true nature of his fruit.

This is my problem. It's ambiguous now. The Gorosei barely know Luffy so what they're describing is the DF itself and their description happens to fit Luffy so in this instance, it's the other way around with the DF influencing Luffy. This is what I mean by his character being ruined. We can disagree on the amount of ruin that happened. I don't think he's totally ruined, but it's a big blemish for me

Its speculative but if the fruit has a will of its own, maybe Luffy wound up eating it because he was the one who innately had a nature identical to what the fruit desired.

I think Oda will eventually say exactly this

[punsher2011]

Originally Posted by khoa1708

post time skip one piece hasn't been good. Oda is trying to finish the series so the quality of the writing has been slipping.

I'm not feeling this new power either... it seems out of place. It's like watching the movie "The Mask" or "Who Framed Roger Rabbit"; slapstick cartoonish things in the real world. It does give Oda the freedom to fabricate whatever he wants to fit the story. Although I am tired of the "chosen one" trope

I actually like the fact that user is able to achieve his imagination in fight, especially how luffy imagination is cartoon like just like a kid and how even himself is amused by the deed done

[breno.m.fis]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

So because I pointed out how you're wrong, you're resorting to death threats? You should take a page from void and just stick with trolling

Imagination > earthquakes and lava

Death threat? Jesus no! I'm asking you an honest question. Answer me, do you agree or not that this would be the result?

And I'm not trolling either, I'm making my point as much as you are. God, cool that head, you're not among enemies here.

Originally Posted by OH&S

The phrase "power of imagination" is disingenuous when describing the fruit's ability; imagination is not the ability itself but a creative mind will be able to take it further. But speaking broadly, yes. What got Luffy through pre-timeskip was the different ways he thought of using his ability. Part of the reason why I give the revelations of Gear 2nd and 3rd a pass even though they're a total asspull is because they were fun "ideas" Luffy came up with to use in battle rather than a properly trained technique. The ideas continued with Gear 4th and Haki. Gear 5th is the culmination of that.



Yep, like I said in my earlier post this would be another bigger retcon. But until it actually happens I'm not willing to consider it; so let's put this part of the discussion on hold.



Not the whole of his character but YES. This is again self evident. The disagreement is that I don't believe that the fruit mentally influenced him into this mindset. I think its the opposite: that Luffy while following his own convictions has ended up embodying the ideals of the true nature of his fruit.

Its speculative but if the fruit has a will of its own, maybe Luffy wound up eating it because he was the one who innately had a nature identical to what the fruit desired.

My exact interpretation on that too.

Originally Posted by Kanon

I use the term for people who quite literally worship Oda and can't handle a single criticism thrown at One Piece, even when it's valid. They tend to quickly resort to insults when contradicted. There's only one person like this here, and he seems to have calmed down quite a bit.

People are obviously free to love this development if they wish, just like others are free to hate it. Personally, I'm kinda neutral. I'm glad the DF is still a rubber fruit at its core, but I just don't really see the point of this twist other than to make Luffy even more special than he already was. And there was no need for that. More foreshadowing would have been welcome too.

Oh ok. Thanks for understanding. It's just that I can't help but get the impression that it pulls the feet of fans who rebuff these criticisms simply because they genuinely like the story and see no reason for such criticism. Just my impression.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

This is my problem. It's ambiguous now. The Gorosei barely know Luffy so what they're describing is the DF itself and their description happens to fit Luffy so in this instance, it's the other way around with the DF influencing Luffy. This is what I mean by his character being ruined. We can disagree on the amount of ruin that happened. I don't think he's totally ruined, but it's a big blemish for me

I think Oda will eventually say exactly this

Well, if it's ambiguous, better not draw harsh conclusions then?

[ri0]

Well, most of my thoughts were already written down by other people. Personally, I don't understand why the fruit modell had to be changed. Just keep it a rubber fruit through and through. Not doing this and making the Gomu Gomu no Mi somewhat special according to the Gorosei poses so many questions.

1. Why should a Sun God be made out of rubber/have a rubber body?
2. Why does the Gomu Gomu no Mi act completely different from other Zoans, as in that it...
a. needs awakening for the transformation.
b. has a "base" paramecia like state that is completely unconnected to its Zoan transformation.
Because why does no other Zoan have this kind of characteristic? Why aren't Marco's or Sengoku's (also Mythical users) bodies made out of jelly/metal/tree/whatever?
c. All other Awakened Zoans were mindless, living only on instinct.
d. Only Awakened Paramecias were able to alternate their surroundings.

The Gomu Gomu no Mi is excluded from all these previous examples or uses traits that were only shown for different types of fruits. Imo, a perfect example of Deus Ex Machina/retconning.
3. Why was this specialty of the Gomu Gomu no Mi not once mentioned in 1000 chapters before (only lately by a couple of characters)?
4. If Shanks knew the importance of the fruit (attacking a World Government ship to obtain it), how could he leave it just lying around to be eaten by a freaking child?
5. If the Gorosei knew the importance of the fruit (2nd coming of Joyboy) why wasn't it the top priority of the WG to kill Luffy at EL or MF? That has got to be the biggest threat to them by far...


All Luffy did so far, could have easily been explained by Awakening (getting stronger, being able to make the ground into rubber to bounce back Kaido's blast). I also read a super interesting theory that Joyboy used the Gomu Gomu no Mi's awakened form to create the skull of Onigashimi and even Zunisha's current state. All of this could have been explained by simple Awakening.
But I guess Oda needs to connect Joyboy somehow to Luffy and to link Joyboy to Luffy's fruit was the best idea he came up with. To me, it is pretty dissatisfying to change the nature of the fruit in the process. It takes away the idea of Luffy having a mediocre fruit and is simply using it in a creative way.

There is also the question why a single CP9 agent was tasked to deliver the most valuable sought after fruit in existence. Why not send one or two freaking admirals? A fruit that the government tried to hide from the annals of history because of its true name probably being a symbol for liberation or the civilization that was annihilated by the current WG.

I will wait patiently for Oda's explanation... but I doubt I will be completely satisfied.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by breno.m.fis

Death threat? Jesus no! I'm asking you an honest question. Answer me, do you agree or not that this would be the result?

And I'm not trolling either, I'm making my point as much as you are. God, cool that head, you're not among enemies here.

Well you're the one bringing up knives and drawing blood for no reason and without answering my question

How about my original question: "So with the new information from the Gorosei, who is responsible for those things? Luffy's original character or the DF he ate that has those same properties?" "those things" refers to Luffy wanting to be free, freeing others, making smiles, etc...

Well, if it's ambiguous, better not draw harsh conclusions then?

Why make a great character's motivation and achievements ambiguous? Would you be OK with Luke Skywalker wearing a bracelet that makes him want to become a Jedi and save the galaxy from the Empire?

Originally Posted by ri0

I will wait patiently for Oda's explanation... but I doubt I will be completely satisfied.

I agree with almost all of your points. I think people can't see the blatant and awkward retcon because of all the hype

[ri0]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

I agree with almost all of your points. I think people can't see the blatant and awkward retcon because of all the hype

I also agreed on much you wrote in regards to Luffy's or the DF's "will". The way I can imagine being at peace with this development is either

a. the fruit "looking" for a host that has a freedom seeking attitude, is mostly joyful and has a good heart. Although that would pose the question why only that fruit is doing it but can perhaps be explained with good writing. Perhaps that there are two fruits doing that - Teach vs Luffy.

b. That the usage of the awakened fruit makes the user be joyful but so far, it was Luffy's own character being at work. But this also poses the question why the Gomu Gomu no Mi would be the only fruit to do that.

c. Luffy is simply high on the first time living the awakened state. Which seems not to be the case, as Joyboy was known for this behaviour as well.

The problem imo is this destiny/prophecy thing as that rules out the possibility of coincidence. Oda had to give a reason why Joyboy will be "revived"/have a 2nd coming. And that will necessarily be a hit on Luffy unless the Gomu Gomu no Mi is a super special Deus Ex Machina fruit unlike any other.

[The Small One]

I kind of wonder, how the 'will of D' plays into all of this.