Fansub Preference: Leader or Staff?

[Access]

Fansub groups are purely 'volunteer' groups. Structure can change in an instant and people can choose to come and go as they please. A leader cannot lead without also being led. He cannot control without also being controlled. He cannot manage a group without also being managed by the group. A position of leader, with whatever "power", or "service" that it entails (or lack thereof), exists only b'cos the individuals in the group allow it to. The long-term survival of the group depends on its members being satified. If not, the group is abandoned, the members go elsewhere. The group is not a job, a livelihood, or an obligation, any member who feels dissatisfied is under no obligation to stick around.

Now leaders alone can exist on several different levels within the group. Most of the large / expansive groups have one, two, or a few people who care to step forward when something requiring it comes up. For instance breaking up infighting or proposing a new project for others to consider (though in reality most projects actually begin with a translator coming forward and saying "I want to do this" and then others falling into place). Then you have leaders who exist on the project level, coordinating a specific project, while often also working heavily on that project. Then you have leaders who, in one way or another, add synergy to the group.

"When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.

If you don't trust the people,
you make them untrustworthy.

The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done,
the people say, "Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!" "

道德經, 老子 [trans: S. Mitchell]

[日本ひきこもり協会]

Originally Posted by Access

"When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.

If you don't trust the people,
you make them untrustworthy.

The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done,
the people say, "Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!" "

道德經, 老子 [trans: S. Mitchell]

Well it's all cool and good but I don't think it's a pretty good idea to quote some Chinese guy considering how "well" China governs their people.

[Access]

Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会

Well it's all cool and good but I don't think it's a pretty good idea to quote some Chinese guy considering how "well" China governs their people.

If you mean the current ruling (communist) party, that is less than a hundred years vs. a long history, in the thousands of years. Politics vs. Culture, two very seperate things.

[Xvoki]

This seems an interesting topic, so here is a hypothetical question: The leader of a fan sub group becomes difficult to work under. Staff no longer want to work for him, so they decide to get rid of him. But the leader is also the founder. The founder has put a huge deal of work and effort into turning that group into a success. The groups name is well known with a good reputation. The leader is also well known with a good reputation. The leader’s fame is such, that his name is synonymous with the name of the group. The staff, who are largely unknown with zero reputation, do not want to leave and re-form a new group of their own.

Now, if all members of that group were equal, disposing of that leader should be easy, right?

I would take a guess, and say… ? ^_^

[getfresh]

Originally Posted by Xvoki

This seems an interesting topic, so here is a hypothetical question: The leader of a fan sub group becomes difficult to work under. Staff no longer want to work for him, so they decide to get rid of him. But the leader is also the founder. The founder has put a huge deal of work and effort into turning that group into a success. The groups name is well known with a good reputation. The leader is also well known with a good reputation. The leader’s fame is such, that his name is synonymous with the name of the group. The staff, who are largely unknown with zero reputation, do not want to leave and re-form a new group of their own.

Now, if all members of that group were equal, disposing of that leader should be easy, right?

I would take a guess, and say… ? ^_^

It has happened in the past, and leaders have been changed in many groups when the overall staff have "Had enough." It is all about how you go about enacting the change.

[Access]

Originally Posted by Xvoki

that his name is synonymous with the name of the group. The staff, who are largely unknown with zero reputation, do not want to leave and re-form a new group of their own.

Now, if all members of that group were equal, disposing of that leader should be easy, right?

Different things can happen, but the end result is pretty much the same.
Even if the leader isn't actually formally removed, he might end up as a "leader" in name only, with little more than a title.

[Teppei]

Well, in the above case, I'd say if reputation was what was really important to the disgruntled staff, then I suppose they'd have to suck it up and go on with the situation they put themselves in. On the other hand, if its enjoying the hobby of fansubbing which is actually the important thing, and this person is detracting from that, then there's no real problem (other than now they will have to do all the things that person was doing, maintain site, organize things, whathaveyou).

So, no, everyone's not equal. It really depends on the relative value of what the "leader" is bringing to the table (reputation in your example).

[Teppei]

Originally Posted by getfresh

What I'm taking from the anti "leader" stuff seems more like a "I don't like the idea of anyone being higher than me" thing.

Hmm, I suppose if you want to accredit what I was saying to rather base motives like that, you can go ahead. That's not really what I was trying to get across, tho. In a way, though, you're right. I don't think in a hobby organization that anyone should be considered "higher" than someone else. Not that I'm saying you were implying that they were.

I guess I think about it this way. In the homebrewing club I'm in, we don't have somebody who's called the leader and we don't need one. Yes, we do have a secretary sort of position (she's the one who's basically in charge of sending e-mails saying whose house we are meeting at next, reminders and the like) but that's not restricting anyone else from taking any action (such as organizing something themselves).

Myself, I draw the same parallel with fansubbing: I don't think every group needs to organize itself with "leader" and "staff". That's one organization method, but not the only one available. Just because some person is handling some organizational issues doesn't mean they, especially in something people are doing for fun, are a leader and others are not.

[getfresh]

Originally Posted by Teppei

Hmm, I suppose if you want to accredit what I was saying to rather base motives like that, you can go ahead. That's not really what I was trying to get across, tho. In a way, though, you're right. I don't think in a hobby organization that anyone should be considered "higher" than someone else. Not that I'm saying you were implying that they were.

I guess I think about it this way. In the homebrewing club I'm in, we don't have somebody who's called the leader and we don't need one. Yes, we do have a secretary sort of position (she's the one who's basically in charge of sending e-mails saying whose house we are meeting at next, reminders and the like) but that's not restricting anyone else from taking any action (such as organizing something themselves).

Myself, I draw the same parallel with fansubbing: I don't think every group needs to organize itself with "leader" and "staff". That's one organization method, but not the only one available. Just because some person is handling some organizational issues doesn't mean they, especially in something people are doing for fun, are a leader and others are not.

You seem to think having a "leader" and "staff" means it is no longer fun or that it is no longer a hobby. Jaded, is all I can think. People automatically will sort themselves into a hierarchy. It is a natural process of all humans. Even if there are no titles this situation will happen as people assume positions they are naturally inclined to. You can argue this point all day but the mountains of research, publications, and tests prove otherwise.

[Teppei]

Originally Posted by getfresh

You seem to think having a "leader" and "staff" means it is no longer fun or that it is no longer a hobby. Jaded, is all I can think. People automatically will sort themselves into a hierarchy. It is a natural process of all humans. Even if there are no titles this situation will happen as people assume positions they are naturally inclined to. You can argue this point all day but the mountains of research, publications, and tests prove otherwise.

I don't think I'm jaded by any means. And I didn't intend to imply that whatever organization structure a fansub group adopts it couldn't be fun.

You seem to think there's some invariant rule that in any activity people will automatically form hierarchies. I couldn't disagree more.

You can have no respect for my opinion (which is what seems to be the case since you are making some case that mountains oppose me). On my part, however, I understand and respect what you are saying, even though I can't agree.

To get this back on topic, I'm interested to know to what degree people are willing to tolerate the foibles of their leaders in order to get fansubs out.

[getfresh]

It's not a matter of respecting your opinion at all honestly. I was making a statement which was based off of studying sociology and psychology.

And on your question of toleration, it all depends in my case if I deserve to get beaten with a stick or not. If I do not feel the harassment is warranted I will not tolerate it for even a second. I will tell them to go take a flying fuck on a winged donut quite quickly if I feel they are out of line.

[Grv]

Just a brief insight on 'management style' as it were, I've worked on a number of 'real life' projects and you do pick up what works and doesn't work.

My personal opinion is that a group leader/founder has quite a simple responsibility: ensure there is enough resource. Almost like a glorified HR Director. As for what goes on beyond that point, it's a case of management by exception, i.e. let the team work organically within a defined set of 'rules' and only intervene when a particular tolerance level has been exceeded.

If you do that you do get a team that works well together, they may not be the fastest when it comes to fansubbing but you're always going to be hard pushed to create the leanest most efficient organisation from what is essentially a group of volunteers. If you push too hard, things break - a simple fact of life.

Anyway in answer to the original post I do like leading my own group but I also enjoy getting involved with the nitty gritty from time to time. That being said it's always nice to work with other groups at a less 'senior' level to gain experience of how others do things. Given the ever-changing nature of fansubbing I think that group leaders do need to get some experience at a lower level before they embark on their own 'journey' as it were unless they just so happen to be Richard Branson or Alan Sugar in which case it's pointless preaching to the converted.

[dj_tjerk]

You're so good a leader that you don't even have to be around on IRC anymore Grv.. or was that not what you were trying to say Love you though :>

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by getfresh

First generation digisubbing included soldats in the majority of peoples eyes.

Soldats is by my definition a 2nd generation group. It did break off from BakaMX, after all

But you're right, as far as the # of people who were eyeing the scene, it was a first gen group (any group that was releasing in 2001 must be, I guess).

Originally Posted by Teppei

To get this back on topic, I'm interested to know to what degree people are willing to tolerate the foibles of their leaders in order to get fansubs out.

I can't think of many examples within L-E where we've had this issue... I kind of tried to instill that philosophy in the group from day one. Fansubbing should be a lot of things, but 'unpleasant' due to management issues should not be one of them.

BakaMX had some of that 'unpleasantness' in my experience which is why I wanted L-E to go in a different direction. It was never you, of course, but some of the other characters in the group did make fansubbing unpleasant at times.

I can recall a time where I put together an intro for a Fruits Basket episode that I was told "sorry, no good, make another one." IMO, if someone volunteers enough of their time to do something in good faith, you owe it to them to use it. It's unpleasantness like that that will destroy a group from the inside out. Quality shouldn't trump fun on the list of priorities. I think you're the one who told me that

-Tofu

[edogawaconan]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

I can recall a time where I put together an intro for a Fruits Basket episode that I was told "sorry, no good, make another one." IMO, if someone volunteers enough of their time to do something in good faith, you owe it to them to use it. It's unpleasantness like that that will destroy a group from the inside out. Quality shouldn't trump fun on the list of priorities. I think you're the one who told me that

Do you have any suggestion for improving quality without increasing unpleasantness?

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by edogawaconan

Do you have any suggestion for improving quality without increasing unpleasantness?

Master the art of giving and taking constructive criticism without hurting anyone's feelings + experience. Also get a good QC department

But this is a VOLUNTEER hobby. No one has the right to boss someone around. You can make it a very clear requirement to join the group that you have to be willing to give and take criticism.

But at the end of the day, if someone does the best job they can do, don't hack up their work or just flat out not use it. Seeing it out to the public will give them a sense of pride and make them want to work even harder next time, continually improving. Experience helps a great deal.

-Tofu

[getfresh]

Quality comes with the type of team there is as well. If one person who is influential to other around them and is a pace setter is about quality vs. release count, the other staff will kind of gear towards that mind set. The inverse is also true.

The best way to increase quality in your own group imo is have strong convictions for it. Make them known without beating people with them. Follow your convictions without make contrary remarks or actions in relation to them, even in jest. Know when to "fight" for them and when to compromise with fellow staff so that you get some of what you want and they don't feel like a sheep. Promote the pride in craftsmanship vibe over the popularity quick fix. Once people find a different way to get that "good feeling" they seek from fansubbing you will see the motivation of one type get redirected into another type.

[日本ひきこもり協会]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

I can recall a time where I put together an intro for a Fruits Basket episode that I was told "sorry, no good, make another one." IMO, if someone volunteers enough of their time to do something in good faith, you owe it to them to use it. It's unpleasantness like that that will destroy a group from the inside out. Quality shouldn't trump fun on the list of priorities. I think you're the one who told me that

-Tofu

I don't see anything wrong when people say do it from scratch if you make a half-assed job. Especially if people aim for a certain level of quality.

Also guys, stop this new-gen old-gen talk. Fansubbing since a year or ten years won't really have a big impact. After all it's up to the capable individual who manages to run a group properly or not.

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会

I don't see anything wrong when people say do it from scratch if you make a half-assed job. Especially if people aim for a certain level of quality.

Also guys, stop this new-gen old-gen talk. Fansubbing since a year or ten years won't really have a big impact. After all it's up to the capable individual who manages to run a group properly or not.

My point was it wasn't a half-ass job. They disagreed with the choice of music for the intro and wanted it redone to change that. The video was synched to the audio so it was asking for a complete redo.

IMO, even if you don't like the musical choice in that situation, allowing the person's work to be used in the fansub is the healthier choice for the group. Consistently alienating your staff by asserting authority over them, in what is a volunteer hobby, is a sure-fire way to get them to leave the group or focus on something else entirely.

It's when you take the fun out of it that groups begin to falter.

-Tofu

[pichu]

nope, 10 years of experience does not imply to be better than someone with only 3 years of experience. The fact is if your idea is old and outdated, you should be changed. It's like asking yourself: why the hell are you living in the 90s world at this age? It's all about ideas and innovations with techniques. I have known many programming languages such as C for over 15 years, but does it mean that I can do more than those people who only have 5 years of experience. No. You guys just need to get this straight. Geez. (off-topic -- just got a bit piss off talking to some of the `older` fansubbers [i have five years and blabla])

As you can see, I could care less about groups. Who has loyalty? lol

For example, I've been recently assigned as a Karaoke maker. I stalled the project only because I wanted to finish the work I started a year ago for making After-Effects karaoke easily. I thought I could finish it before the project is stalled, but I was wrong, and I'm stubborn enough to refuse doing the karaoke directly without waiting to finish writing that script; and it happened that when I finished with the script, a couple of groups released without waiting for my work. It's not my concern anyways, I'm only seeing the work I do as a benefactor to future and possible current projects.