Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by sonagi

1) Is their Akki really a fiend?

Based on the child's behavior... Maybe no. He seems to follow orders, plus he doesn't hurt his own kind. Or what he thinks is not his own kind...

Originally Posted by sonagi

2) How do you turn a child into an Akki?

For Yakomaru... heh, Bad Parenting...

[Triple_R]

I don't mind that they're going to Tokyo.

But given the context, I would have loved for them to spoof Planet of the Apes.

Satoru and Saki walk past a fallen, half-submerged in dirt, and rusty Tokyo Tower, looking like the Statue of Liberty from Planet of the Apes.

"Damn you dirty queerats!" Satoru shouts, as his emotions temporarily get the better of him.


@Kuromitsu - Thanks for the info. I guess that blows some holes in my theories...

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

@Kuromitsu - Thanks for the info. I guess that blows some holes in my theories...

Sorry I just realized I added some extra 0-s, but anyway it doesn't change a lot.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

He jumped right by the fiend, and into a ditch, and somehow survived?

Well, the fiend might not be able to kill bakenezumi. I used to think deathfeedback was still in place, only transferred to bakenezumi, but then I remembered his involvement in the war, and began to doubt it. But according to Kiroumaru's story, the fiend merely disarmed them. That would be compatible with the theory that the "fiend" can't kill bakenezumi. Also, the fiend doesn't look like an eagle-eyed observer to me. I don't think sneaking past him would be that hard, especially if his job is done.

But on the whole it does sound a bit fishy. Still possible, though.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But then again I think one of the issues with this series is we have only seen this conflict through the human side. We might understand why the monster rats are revolting but the only think we have seen of the monster rats are somewhat negative too. For some reason or another the author never really reflects on the good side of the monster rats (although perhaps that is just my perception since a lot of people seem to side with them) Kiroumaru seems to be an exception to this (Sqounk was another one).

That's a good point. Considering the narrative technique, it's not surprising. It's first person narration from Saki: how much does she even know about bakenezumi, even after the show is over? We'll have to wait and see how it ends, and only then (if at all) will we know why and to whom she tells the story.

Although I wonder if somehow Kiroumaru could betray and still be honorable. Is that even possible?

Well, depends on the code you follow, right? If he had the order to kill Saki and Satoru, he already betrayed the "gods" by leaving them alive. For what? Paying off a debt, because Satoru saved his life? Even back then I wondered, if he was preparing future allies.

If loyalty to humans is, in the eyes of bakenezumi, a humiliating necessity rather than a point of honour, tricking humans is no breach of honour at all. That's the very problem here.

A bigger question to me is loyalty to the queen. To me, the main difference between Kiroumaru and Yakomaru has never been one of honour (though that is certainly a difference). It's been one of traditionalist vs. Reformer. And the reason for this? Power. Kiroumaru is a powerful warrior with a strong clan, who wins battles. Yakomaru is a "coward" (I actually don't buy that; we've seen him on the front lines, facing approaching arrows without flinching, and then his happy relief when Satoru did deflect the arrows) and heads a no-name clan. So, in a system that values warrior's honour, and is supported by divine contracts, who profits more from the status quo? Viewed like that, Kiroumaru's honour seems no less self-serving than Yakomaru's trickery. But Yakomaru's trickery is the far, far greater risk.

I like both Kiroumaru and Yakomaru (as characters - I'm not sure I'd trust either). Personally, I find the bakenezumi in this show more interesting than the humans. And part of it, I think, is the mystery that surrounds them, because we don't have all the info.

...why the monster rats are revolting...

Had to chuckle at the unintentional pun. There's a joke along the lines "Sir, the peasants are revolting." - "I know, but what can you do?" It fits so much better in this context.

So what sort of beast will they fight in Tokyo? The cantus wielding tantacle monster of Akki-habara? I'm sort of worried by this quote:

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

by the way, I think this stage of the story is where the ending gets really ridiculous.

I hope I'll disagree.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Had to chuckle at the unintentional pun. There's a joke along the lines "Sir, the peasants are revolting." - "I know, but what can you do?" It fits so much better in this context.

"Sir, the rebels are here." "My god, man! Do they want tea?"

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I'm sort of worried by this quote:

Oh, I just meant the ED as in the ending song/animation. You have all this situation and yet the ending is....... Maria angsting and singing an angsty love song.

(As for monsters, Ixion Saga mentioned something about 48 maidens...)

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Had to chuckle at the unintentional pun. There's a joke along the lines "Sir, the peasants are revolting." - "I know, but what can you do?" It fits so much better in this context.

LOL yes that wrong word choice was unintentional (along with other typos in that post) but you are right it does fit in another sense.


Kuromitsu I misunderstood what you were saying about the ending too, glad to hear you were not talking about the content of the story.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Kuromitsu I misunderstood what you were saying about the ending too, glad to hear you were not talking about the content of the story.

Oops, sorry about that... I'll go change it, just to be safe. ._.)

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Uhh... I know that it's freaking Anthrax but the anime also said it worked only on the psychics? But you are telling me they work on other humans and the rats as well? What's the deal here o_O? Brb rewatching the minoshiro lecture.

And I think the analogy has to go further - it's always the big apple for US - and boy do I hate that shit.


And Inui really did survive by acting like a rat and passing for one eh? That sucks. For him and for my theory although it's still fairly too convenient (idk how fairly too convenient works lol) for Kiroumaru to have found him in the middle of Yakomaru's territory like that unless he was also hiding there. I really don't understand why he would ever take the guy to the specific place that is the temple of purity at great risk of being discovered by Yakomaru and being annihilated by humans but hell what gives, maybe he is just that loyal. Wolf? More like a dog if that's the case! Still think he is in for the long haul, noble or not. Saki did say "the queerrats" and not just "yakomaru" when she was narrating how the kids that they were couldn't have seen what was being planned in the shadows.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Oh, I just meant the ED as in the ending song/animation. You have all this situation and yet the ending is....... Maria angsting and singing an angsty love song.

Yeah, using that as an ED for the entire 2nd half was a bad call. It's totally jarring now.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yeah, using that as an ED for the entire 2nd half was a bad call. It's totally jarring now.

...it's disturbing. The fact is that she's DEAD and her child slaughtering humankind. What's with the love song.. It's pointless...

[Forsaken_Infinity]

I could stomach the ending by just skipping over it but how was I supposed to deal with the WTF! inserts of "I will protect you lol" where Satoru should have been the one saying (or rather, doing, since that's more his style) that o_o. That was made all the worse by the pose Maria took in those inserts and the fact that she never actually said that line to Saki in the main storyline. Heck, she practically commended her on her mental strength and was observant enough to note that she was unique in that regard. And she chose to act in protection of the "weak", times and again. What the fuck with those inserts then. They came very close to ruining the show for me. Not the drop in art quality, not even the missing details. Heck not even the butchering of Satoru's character and his relationship with Saki. Those inserts were entirely too annoying.

The anime doesn't mention that the bacteria works on the rats as well but I suppose Anthrax should work on them. Oh well. Still, all the more reason for the "leader(s)" to get their hands on it as that's the ultimate contingency measure. A weapon nobody can really counter.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

Uhh... I know that it's freaking Anthrax but the anime also said it worked only on the psychics? But you are telling me they work on other humans and the rats as well? What's the deal here o_O? Brb rewatching the minoshiro lecture.

I can't check the book atm so it's entirely possible that I don't remember/misremember something but I don't think it's ever said that it only works on people with PK powers... I think the idea is that these guys can stop most of what is thrown at them (unless they're getting surprise bombed or something, but I guess when the world is out to get you, you just pay attention to that sort of thing...), but since this is not Dune even they can't really do anything against poison or biological weapons.

[DragoZERO]

Not the greatest episode. Really felt rushed and they got to Tokyo way to quick and way too easily. The journey itself should have been difficult. But, I guess we are pressed for time now.

I am hoping Kiroumaru is on Saki's side. I had an incline that he may be in on it, but I am going to be positive.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Not the greatest episode. Really felt rushed and they got to Tokyo way to quick and way too easily. The journey itself should have been difficult. But, I guess we are pressed for time now.

I am hoping Kiroumaru is on Saki's side. I had an incline that he may be in on it, but I am going to be positive.

Bear in mind that there are prominent theories as to why their journey was quick and not difficult.

Let's just put the facts on the table first.

They have a machine / animal that gives them exact directions.

They have somebody who has been there before, and from the sound of it, more than once. And he is acting as their tour guide.

Their tour guide just so also happens to have the ability to tell when their enemies are around. Faked or otherwise.

Now, the possibilities:

Yakomaru let them escape anticipating them to search for a weapon against the "fiend", potentially a weapon of mass destruction he would love to have his hands on.

That doesn't require Kiroumaru to be in on it per se but his being on in would explain things going conveniently even further. If he was faking being able to locate his species and stuff, he is in on the plan by Yakomaru. Heck, he could potentially even be the contriver himself, and Yakomaru is his loyal pawn as he has been since before either of theirs appearance in the show. And heck, he could have been playing the long haul since fucking forever - letting Saki and Satoru go against orders from the temple (okay, Tomiko said she intervened on their behalf, but that was only after they were in the village and the anime explicitly mentioned that an order was, in fact, issued, and Kiroumaru explicitly requested that they report that they never met him, potentially because that would make the adults suspect him) to gain their trust. He - or any other rat really - could have found a minoshiro and propagated the information about the potential WMD in Tokyo, but without the exact location, something only this particular plushie minoshiro from the library seems to have, and other related info about the humans among all the rats. Then his prior expeditions to Tokyo would make sense, he was only trying to retrieve the WMD. And he could have known about the hypnosis that humans are conditioned to but observed/figured out/told by someone somehow that this bunch of kids were somehow outside the system and he decided to use that to his advantage. Kiroumaru would be the ultimate strategist then. But I am probably over-thinking a lot of it. Would be damn cool though.

That and the humans being dumb as(s) shit.

I am sure they cut a lot of info, but I am of the opinion that this episode wasn't exactly rushed (heck, some users considered it slow).

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Well, the fiend might not be able to kill bakenezumi. I used to think deathfeedback was still in place, only transferred to bakenezumi, but then I remembered his involvement in the war, and began to doubt it. But according to Kiroumaru's story, the fiend merely disarmed them. That would be compatible with the theory that the "fiend" can't kill bakenezumi. Also, the fiend doesn't look like an eagle-eyed observer to me. I don't think sneaking past him would be that hard, especially if his job is done.

Good point. I had the same thought. According to Kiromaru, as you mentioned, the fiend just disarmed them, but the dirty work has been done by the queerats. Why that, if not for the feedback? Thinking how the death feedback should work, and honestly I'm not that sure I did understand it, what really matter for a human is that he had to believe he is killing one of his kind, but ultimately doesn't really matter if he is really a human or not. So, for the kid, being born and bred into a queerat society, a logical consequence should be that what he thinks as his like is actually a queerat and not a human. For that reason the death feedback doesn't work killing humans, but does work killing queerats. It's even true that he seems to have been bred as an animal more than a queerat, but still.

Anyways this doesn't still say anything about the kid. The feedback should be triggered in both cases, being a fiend or simply a cantus wielder, doesn't it? The only proof that he is not a fiend is that he actually follows orders and identifies queerats, or one specific queerat has his falconier, just call him that.

Having said that, I still don't get how this should be a matter to Saki at this point (if not for empathy issues).
What should really matter is that they have the most skilled and valorous queerat by their side and still they decided to go to this difficult and very dangerous travel. I mean. Someone asked in the prev episode 3d if a human with a rifle could have killed the fiend. I refrained myself hinting how a queerat (Kiromaru) would have been the best option here. And still I think so. Even more now that Kiromaru is there. Surely put some poison under the kid nose is far difficult that fire a rifle from afar. Unless I'm missing something
Unless obviously Yakomaru didn't ordered his troops to pick up every rifle dropped by his dead soldiers. Honestly, for how meticolous and paranoic Yakomaru is, as Kiromaru defined him, it's still a difficult task to accomplish for his troops.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Well, depends on the code you follow, right? If he had the order to kill Saki and Satoru, he already betrayed the "gods" by leaving them alive. For what? Paying off a debt, because Satoru saved his life? Even back then I wondered, if he was preparing future allies.

I totally forgot about that.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

If loyalty to humans is, in the eyes of bakenezumi, a humiliating necessity rather than a point of honour, tricking humans is no breach of honour at all. That's the very problem here.

Very good point. Here is where the problem lies with Kiromaru.
And now that you reminded me of Satoru saving his life, I remembered even how I found a bit strange that whole sequence. The way how Satoru saved him by an explosion and specifically how Kiromaru didn't even flinch. But probably I'm just over-thinking about that.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Yeah, it seems the majority of us here want Kiroumaru to have been badass enough to be the ultimate bad behind it all lol. That would really be so much more noble, considering his species, than wagging his tails behind members of another species that play pretend God (and he knows it to be a mere pretense too). It would also make the implications very interesting. I, for one, would suddenly find myself sympathizing with the rats much more. They had to work hard, they already did that, but they had to work far too hard to have played that seriously long haul. And creating all that tension among themselves to mislead the humans? Oh god.

[AvatarST]

I agree with the sentiment about the ED. I think it's never felt as out of place in this episode. Until the akki's face was revealed, I could kinda stomach it.

But the further Maria is from the story, the worse it gets.

Thankfully it doesn't take away much from an otherwise awesome show.

I can't see Kiroumaru betraying Saki and Satoru myself. Maybe in the heat of the moment, or perhaps he's got his own plan, but I definitely don't think that he's "in" with Yakomaru about this. He seems to really despise both Yakomaru and the fiend, and I buy that part of his story at least.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

I am suggesting Yakomaru is just his Queen, one with all the quick and important front moves and the acting skills and especially the voice,

(._., a wolf as a king and a fox as a queen... god my mind is dirty.)

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

I can't see Kiroumaru betraying Saki and Satoru myself.

The only bad sign I see in Kiroumaru is his usual "grinding teeth" mannerism... It could be a sign of anger. We seen it during his confrontation with Yakomaro and we see it again in the dungeon when he was chained. To whom is that grinding now, for the humans or still for Yakomaru?

First, we speculated that Kirouma could be the one who will sacrifice himself to kill the fiend in the end Now, we think he could be the "last boss".

Another speculation I fear is that.... Saki and Satoru will end up "adapting" the fiend as their child....

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

The only bad sign I see in Kiroumaru is his usual "grinding teeth" mannerism... It could be a sign of anger. We seen it during his confrontation with Yakomaro and we see it again in the dungeon when he was chained. To whom is that grinding now, for the humans or still for Yakomaru?

First, we speculated that Kirouma could be the one who will sacrifice himself to kill the fiend in the end Now, we think he could be the "last boss".

Another speculation I fear is that.... Saki and Satoru will end up "adapting" the fiend as their child....

I think he hates the humans too, it's just that he hates Yakomaru and the fiend much more; so yeah, I'd say the teeth grinding is for them.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he turns on them later, or in a situation where he's under heavy pressure and is forced to pick sides to survive.

But I can't really imagine he's been working with Yakomaru all along. That's not to say it's impossible, but I'd be genuinely surprised if that happened.