Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Well that's a very cynical way to view it...

Gargantia is simply a group of individuals who've come together with the common goal of survival in mind. They're not short sighted just not "big picture" type of people.

After all as long as you have everything you need to survive what else could you want?

Safety from pirates would be nice. So would a better fresh water gathering system than "everyone drops everything and gets buckets out".

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Mangaka-chan

I'm not sure if people on Avalon have families either, since Chamber said "family" is an archaic concept, which implies it's no longer in existence in the Galactic Alliance culture. And considering that the Galactic Alliance wants soldiers who are willing to throw their lives away for the "greater good of mankind" I feel like it's likely the concept of family was done away with so they'd have well trained individuals who are loyal to the ideals of the Alliance rather than to their kin.

Even if citizens could reproduce "freely" they might be required to hand their off spring over to the military for training at birth, and this is something so routinely done and ingrained in their culture that nobody questions the practice. Also if the people allowed to reproduce are those that are both elite soldiers and individuals who strictly adhere to the rules/orders anyway, I imagine no one would raise a fuse.

Oh cripes they are basically Farscape's Peacekeepers. Sebacean Peacekeepers generally do not have a concept of family. Anybody can freely copulate with anybody. It viewed as a recreation. But you have to be assigned permission to fully gestate a pregnancy. (Sebaceans can biologically hold off gestation of the embryo) Long term relationships are forbidden. Resulting children are trained as soldiers from birth.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

Assuming he understands/is able to feel aroused.

IMO It’s a given that Ledo is able to “rise”. If not, he wouldn’t receive recommendation to reproduce freely in Avalon. He is a chosen ace-pilot after all, so I think he is as healthy as he can be. What matters now is what can actually make him aroused .

[ahelo]

Why is Gargantia this . . . good? This episode . . . it was done so masterfully. Ledo slowly learning the language, Ledo showing emotions. . . there aren't many (or any) anime that can do stuff the way Gargantia does it.

Please, no butching, Urobutcher. These 4 episodes are surprisingly near perfect, just keep chugging along to what you've been doing.

[Guardian Enzo]

It's no exaggeration to say I've been pointing towards the moment when Ledo and Bevel speak since we first met Bevel in the second episode, because I could sense just the sort of dilemma it would present for Ledo. But not only didn't that meeting not disappoint, it exceeded my expectations.

Bevel represents a dilemma for Ledo in that he's the living embodiment of everything about Gargantia that makes no sense. For Bevel, this is surely the most exciting moment of his life - a chance to speak with a man from space, where he always argued that mankind must have fled, long ago. It's his vindication, and he's clearly thrilled - but Ledo is nothing if not deeply uncomfortable in speaking to Bevel. There's a rather heartbreaking tone to both of Ledo's conversations with Bevel in the episode, as relates to both characters. Bevel is a very smart and self-aware little boy, but that only makes him more aware of his encroaching fate. In contrast, it's actually Ledo who seems more the child - with his halting grasp of Japanese and the confusion in his mind, he's a very sad sight to see.

It's a terribly gut-wrenching moment Ledo even says to Bevel that in the Galactic Alliance, Bevel would have been "weeded out long ago" - an incredibly cruel and insensitive thing to say to anyone, never mind a sick child. But Bevel responds like someone who's clearly thought this through at great length, telling Ledo that he goes on because he's needed. Amy needs him, and "most of all, I need myself - so I live on." There's a simple and elegant truth to that notion that goes far beyond what most anime aspire to.

[Tranhieu]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

What matters now is what can actually make him aroused .

Chamber

[Folenfant]

I must be about the only person that is enjoying this show but isn't absolutely blown away by it. I mean I haven't disliked a single episode or anything and I like all the characters, but it really hasn't gotten beyond that stage for me just yet. Really nothing in this episode stood out to me as incredibly exceptional content wise though it did have solid direction. I really can't think of terribly much else to say. We're past the 1/3 mark so I expect things to pick up shortly. I'm patiently waiting for this show to enrapture me like it appears to be so many, but I'm starting to feel it's never quite going to get to that level of experience for me.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Safety from pirates would be nice. So would a better fresh water gathering system than "everyone drops everything and gets buckets out".

From episode 3, it appears they do have a standing security force. Also Gargantia appears to be a group of loosely associated individuals who have formed a community out of mutual benefit and safety, similar to a merchant guild. As we've seen, they're a society that prizes voluntary exchange and non-violence.

They are the epitome of the opposite end of the spectrum when compared to the dystopian military Galactic Alliance.

[Eratas123]

Hmm, so the Protheans looked like humans at one point? Fascinating....

Anyway, Ledo seems to be even more suppressed than the others, probably due to his memory gaps. The people on the dying spaceship and his superior officer seemed just fine emoting.

[Raviel]

Originally Posted by taofd

They are the epitome of the opposite end of the spectrum when compared to the dystopian military Galactic Alliance.

I don't think dystopia is the right word to describe the Alliance, pragmatic maybe, but definitely not dystopia.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Raviel

I don't think dystopia is the right word to describe the Alliance, pragmatic maybe, but definitely not dystopia.

Depends on what you consider "dystopia". Brave New World is generally considered a dystopian fiction, but it's a lot less tragic than Avalon in many ways, at least most people there are "happy".
One of its main "dystopic" point that the author describes is the complete abolition of the concept of family.

[Eratas123]

Agreed. We may condemn their actions now, but can you imagine what they're living with? An enemy that's stronger than them, that's utterly remorseless, and worst of all? They have no idea why they're being killed. These creatures offer no explanation, rationalization, or anything to the humans. As far as humanity is concerned, they just get drilled over and over again and they have to adapt. Killing sick people is monstrous, but it wastes resources that can be used on actual people who can fight.

Reminds of the Protheans and The Reapers: An enemy that pops out of fucking nowhere and doesn't stop till it utterly destroys you. You need to lose a lot of things just to survive.

[lightbringer]

Originally Posted by Raviel

I don't think dystopia is the right word to describe the Alliance, pragmatic maybe, but definitely not dystopia.

Pragmatic or not, a society based on universal forced conscription and murdering undesirable and/or weak/crippled individuals is exactly what I would call a dystopia. And from what we've seen and heard, the alliance is also practicing brainwashing.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Raviel

I don't think dystopia is the right word to describe the Alliance, pragmatic maybe, but definitely not dystopia.

I think my original description is apt. Also props to whoever mentioned Brave New World.

I suspect, we'll be seeing just how much of a dystopia the GA is in coming slice of life episodes. We've already seen a sneak peak of what appears to be Ledo's friend / family being shunted into the future equivalent of a gas chamber.

[Eratas123]

The circumstances leading up to a dystopia matter as well. Look at "1984": People are killed, brainwashed, and kept down en masse. And the reason for this is because "We like the power it gives us". There is no moral justification to it at all; the ones who made it simply want to keep their hold and they love power. There's nothing keeping them that way and they could end it if they wanted - They just don't want to.

The Alliance may be brutal and cruel, but the alternative, death by Giant Squid Monster, is a horrible thing. Many would rather live with the Alliance and die fighting rather than claim to be a moral victor and be abandoned without a chance.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Eratas123

Agreed. We may condemn their actions now, but can you imagine what they're living with? An enemy that's stronger than them, that's utterly remorseless, and worst of all? They have no idea why they're being killed. These creatures offer no explanation, rationalization, or anything to the humans. As far as humanity is concerned, they just get drilled over and over again and they have to adapt. Killing sick people is monstrous, but it wastes resources that can be used on actual people who can fight.

Reminds of the Protheans and The Reapers: An enemy that pops out of fucking nowhere and doesn't stop till it utterly destroys you. You need to lose a lot of things just to survive.

Actually based off what we can see, we cannot determine the aliens to be the aggressor. I would bet good money that it's GA propaganda to make citizens think they're in the right for waging continuous war.

Originally Posted by Eratas123

The circumstances leading up to a dystopia matter as well. Look at "1984": People are killed, brainwashed, and kept down en masse. And the reason for this is because "We like the power it gives us". There is no moral justification to it at all; the ones who made it simply want to keep their hold and they love power. There's nothing keeping them that way and they could end it if they wanted - They just don't want to.

The Alliance may be brutal and cruel, but the alternative, death by Giant Squid Monster, is a horrible thing. Many would rather live with the Alliance and die fighting rather than claim to be a moral victor and be abandoned without a chance.

Like I said, excellent propaganda if you already buy their argument.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

-Benjamin Franklin

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by taofd

From episode 3, it appears they do have a standing security force. Also Gargantia appears to be a group of loosely associated individuals who have formed a community out of mutual benefit and safety, similar to a merchant guild. As we've seen, they're a society that prizes voluntary exchange and non-violence.

A security force that's instructed to fight the pirates... but not too hard. After all, the pirates only steal an "acceptable" quantity of resources and rape an "acceptable" quantity of women.

And they find such a situation satisfactory. Instead of, I don't know, try to persuade the pirates to change their ways. Or, if you're not so idealistic as to think that's realistic, band with other honest societies to hit the pirates hard once and for all. They'll still have to deal with small bands of pirates hiding from big forces and preying on isolated vessels, but the ocean won't belong to the pirates anymore.

That's why I say they're complacent.

They are the epitome of the opposite end of the spectrum when compared to the dystopian military Galactic Alliance.

We don't know what pushed the GA to such extremes. But assuming the Hideauze are every bit the threat Ledo thinks they are, I think his way of life has its own beauty. Bebel lives primarily for himself. So do most people IRL, me included. Ledo's people, OTOH, abandon every individual desire for the good of the whole. Because they don't have the luxury of doing anything less. To them, mankind's survival is an all consuming duty. Each of them, not just the soldier but even the culls, is an unsung hero.

[Jan-Poo]

I disagree. Nothing in the definition of "dystopia" says that it must be solely due to the people's fault.

Simply put a dystopia is any world where the future isn't "bright". It's the opposite of Utopia.
It might also be because of an external factor.

Orwellian society is a more precise term for what you mean.

[Eratas123]

If the Alliance is lying, then sure. Then again, we have no idea because we never see anything beyond episode 1. Do note that the Hideauze (sp?) attack just as much as the alliance and even go after lone targets. Seems to me both sides can't claim superiority over another unless we find out their reasons.

The Benkamin Franklin quote sounds great in theory, but would the average human being really give everything up in the name of "Liberty"? If the sun were to explode right now and only those willing to submit to an oppressive government would be saved, do you really think people would cross their arms and tell them "We value liberty over everything"? I want to believe that, but something tells me its not gonna happen.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Eratas123

If the Alliance is lying, then sure. Then again, we have no idea because we never see anything beyond episode 1. Do note that the Hideauze (sp?) attack just as much as the alliance and even go after lone targets. Seems to me both sides can't claim superiority over another unless we find out their reasons.

The Benkamin Franklin quote sounds great in theory, but would the average human being really give everything up in the name of "Liberty"? If the sun were to explode right now and only those willing to submit to an oppressive government would be saved, do you really think people would cross their arms and tell them "We value liberty over everything"? I want to believe that, but something tells me its not gonna happen.

Depends on who you ask. Are people willing to die for their freedoms? If you agree to the previous question, then clearly, there are individuals who would be willing to lay down their lives in defense of liberty.

And actually, this is kind of applicable to the current political environment in the USA. There has been a gradual shift away from "neo-liberalism" and "conservatism" to "authoritarianism" and "voluntaryism".

Convenience does not always trump what is right.

edit: Your example of if the sun explodes doesn't eliminate the possibility for certain civil liberties. Clearly some must be curtailed, but it's up to the people to limit the scope of authority.