(L) Cross game

[jpwong]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

Filler, anime original, whatever you call em - as far as this story is concerned I don't want to encourage the anime people to make any more. I was a little anxious about watching ep. 23, and I'm relieved that it did no damage.

Well, you're probably going to get at least another few episodes worth. I suppose only Adachi really knows when the manga will end, but the anime did go through over half the published material in 21 episodes. Though after seeing what's come out in the anime only stuff so far, I'm quite confident that they won't botch anything up.

[joeboygo]

The anime people have been pretty good, no question about that. But odds being the way they are, the more chances you take, the closer they come to catching up with you. You're probably right, but I wish the anime people would quit while they're ahead.

Edit: Oh wait. I forgot that they did not animate the Season of Wakaba, and spent only one episode using portions of Part I as a set up for the anime run. It made good thematic sense to do that, but that caused ten chapters' worth of published material to blow by in one episode. I don't think they'll do that again, so at the current pace, there ought to be enough material to cover 30 episodes.

[CWW]

Originally Posted by Willen

I rewatched the part in episode 23 where Aoba remembers Wakaba's comments about Kou -- "If he's serious, becoming Japan's best pitcher won't be a dream." and then recalls what Matsuyama, Satomi's captain said to her when they were evaluating her pitching -- "But I want to treasure the team we have right now. The teammates I will laugh and cry with, throughout what will be my last year here." I think this is really what the anime team wanted to get across with these episodes -- that Aoba wants to make Wakaba's dream come true, even at the expense of having her own dreams come true. And the fact that Seishu is Aoba's (and Kou's) team and even if she can't play in official games she's still part of that team and can help them win in other ways.

Exactly. I thought the two flashbacks made it evident. The opposing coach even said there are better female batters in the world.

[Pellissier]

Originally Posted by Willen

I rewatched the part in episode 23 where Aoba remembers Wakaba's comments about Kou -- "If he's serious, becoming Japan's best pitcher won't be a dream." and then recalls what Matsuyama, Satomi's captain said to her when they were evaluating her pitching -- "But I want to treasure the team we have right now. The teammates I will laugh and cry with, throughout what will be my last year here." I think this is really what the anime team wanted to get across with these episodes -- that Aoba wants to make Wakaba's dream come true, even at the expense of having her own dreams come true. And the fact that Seishu is Aoba's (and Kou's) team and even if she can't play in official games she's still part of that team and can help them win in other ways.

A parallelism can be traced with episode 18, another anime original, where the protagonist was Risa, the acting principal's daughter. There was her story, and Aoba facing Midori's words about joining a women's team. Risa trained a lot there to get a role in a movie, and only got a small, supporting part. The moral of episode can be summed up with a dialogue between Aoba and Risa at the end:

Aoba: Are you fine with not playing the heroine in the movie? You practiced so hard for it...
Risa: It doesn't matter as long as I'm in the movie. As long as I get to do what I want in the end, that is.
Aoba (mumbling and wondering): "As long as I get to do what I want in the end?"

The story is the same. Aoba accepts not to play the heroine (aka playing in the women's league) despite having practiced hard. But it doesn't matter, because she gets to do what she wants in the end (aka supporting Kou and Seishuu).

So I'm not sure of the "at the expense of sacrificing her own dream" part you mention. Are we sure that joining the women's league is her dream? Or is it something she's been wondering about and curious of? Couldn't it be that her dream is actually to stay by Kou's side and helping both him and the Seishuu team?
We've seen how strong her character is. For the whole story's convenience, of course, there's no way she could "escape" from Seishuu. But I really think that was her own decision, "the decision who allowed her to do what she wanted in the end".

[Guardian Enzo]

For the record, I still find the tenor of this conversation far too close to the precipice of major manga spoilage. I think it should take place on that thread and there only, and if the non-manga viewers want to follow it, no reason they can't do so there.

As for these "filler" eps, I think they were pretty good - much better than 18, for example. I do find the conundrum Aoba's in quite powerful, and whether these eps ultimately make it more or less so than in the manga will be decided by time, I suppose - not having read it I won't be able to compare. As entertaining as the match was, though, whenever CG strays off the main storyline I always yearn for the sidebars to run their course quickly so we can get back to what really matters - the quest for Koshien and Aoba/Kou interaction.

[Azuma Denton]

Aoba's dream is playing in Koshien.
As she once ask Akaishi when Akaishi tells Aoba about Wakaba dream of Kou and Akaishi playing in Koshien mound.
"Did i also appear in Wakaba's dream?"

Sadly, cause Koshien currently not accepting women...

[Pellissier]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

For the record, I still find the tenor of this conversation far too close to the precipice of major manga spoilage. I think it should take place on that thread and there only, and if the non-manga viewers want to follow it, no reason they can't do so there.

Well, I'm not a manga reader and I don't know about Aoba's future, everything I write are speculations based on what the anime has shown until now. But I understand your point about the analysis going deeper and deeper. As far as I'm concerned though, I made my points on the matter already, so I'm done with it.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Pellissier

Well, I'm not a manga reader and I don't know about Aoba's future, everything I write are speculations based on what the anime has shown until now. But I understand your point about the analysis going deeper and deeper. As far as I'm concerned though, I made my points on the matter already, so I'm done with it.

I dig, but the problem is that the manga readers are responding to speculative posts like yours and the little nuggets of spoilage are slipping out.

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I dig, but the problem is that the manga readers are responding to speculative posts like yours and the little nuggets of spoilage are slipping out.

Like what? Let's be specific here. What future event in the story was revealed to you ahead of the anime? It's a delicate balance to strike, safeguarding against spoilage while avoiding undue restrictions on legitimate topics of conversation. If somebody lets slip a major plot development before the anime shows it, then you would have a real beef (I will cop to having made such a mistake once). But speculation about the general direction of the story that is fairly obvious from what has already been shown should be fair game.

[monir]

I think what Guardian Enzo is saying that it is very difficult for a manga reader to "speculate." There is nothing to speculate for a manga reader. However, I agree with you on your points of view that too much censoring can also lead to the risk of stifling a discussion. Anime-only viewers can enthusiastically engage in speculation. Such enthusiasm can also turn into a bitter experience if a manga reader should correct an anime-only viewer in any manner because the manga-reader thought the line of thinking should have been pretty obvious from what has been shown thus far. What a manga-reader forgets most of the time that it is more than possible for a first time viewer to miss the obvious that became so obvious for a manga reader after knowing about it. Sorry, but a manga-reader will not get the benefit of the doubt of being the shrewd audience he or she is.

Goal here is to provide a safe-haven for the first time viewers, a place for spoiler-free discussion. That can happen only when we all do our part. Rest assured, we won't intervene with the course of this anime-adaptation discussion as long as a manga reader doesn't take unfair advantage of it.

As for episode 23, I did not think Aoba was a team player at all. She was the best player in that team. Her desire to win also was the most which was why she did whatever was needed to be done. The catcher was limited in her capacity, so Aoba told her she would call the signs. I found true admiration for the catcher who was also the captain of that team considering how well she took the assertion Aoba emphasized with those words. She was the true team player. I'm now more than confident that Aoba won't join the girls team. Yes, there are other best-in-the-world girls who are really good at batting and if Aoba hangs around the girls team long enough, she will be able to pitch to them eventually. That is the problem. I don't think Aoba wants to hang around that long. There will be a way for her to play alongside of Kou. And when that comes along, she will take that opportunity. She will bow her head to the girls team, and she will move along.

One of the charming thing about this show is that it is anything but unpredictable. I've a feeling I'm not wrong about this.

[joeboygo]

I agree 100% The thread is well policed and moderated and we should trust the mods to continue exercising good judgment. If anybody has a problem with a specific poster they ought to complain by PM to the Mod. I just feel that constantly complaining in public about a non-specific spoiler threat has as much of a chilling effect as a heavy-handed censorship policy.

And you're right in that manga readers don't actually speculate. But they can enjoy reading the unfettered speculation by the anime-only viewers. Like whether Aoba truly dominated that game or not.

[Willen]

Originally Posted by monir

As for episode 23, I did not think Aoba was a team player at all. She was the best player in that team. Her desire to win also was the most which was why she did whatever was needed to be done. The catcher was limited in her capacity, so Aoba told her she would call the signs. I found true admiration for the catcher who was also the captain of that team considering how well she took the assertion Aoba emphasized with those words. She was the true team player. I'm now more than confident that Aoba won't join the girls team. Yes, there are other best-in-the-world girls who are really good at batting and if Aoba hangs around the girls team long enough, she will be able to pitch to them eventually. That is the problem. I don't think Aoba wants to hang around that long. There will be a way for her to play alongside of Kou. And when that comes along, she will take that opportunity. She will bow her head to the girls team, and she will move along.

While I agree that Aoba's desire to win drove most of her decisions in the game, I disagree in her motivations to not play high school girl's baseball. It's not that she outclasses most girls in skill or ability so she doesn't see it as challenging because as these episodes show, that's not the case. It's that she's chasing a couple of dreams.

I've thought about Aoba's possible motivations for her decisions and what her possible dreams of the future are. And I've come to the conclusion that playing with the boys gets her closer to fulfilling Wakaba's dream and what I suspect is her own dream at the same time. And I, like many others, now suspect that Aoba's dream is to play in Koshien. But I still believe that Aoba wants to play baseball in actual games, regardless whether it's in practice matches against boys, or girls. Or why accept the offer to sit on Satomi's bench?

And on teamwork vs. Aoba's desire to win, Aoba should have already had a good idea of the other team's batter's strengths and weaknesses, but I don't think at any time did she shake off catcher Matsuyama's signs. After Aoba gave up that homerun to Ouka's 4th batter (probably unavoidable at the time) and allowed their 5th to get on base, it's Matsuyama that calls time. To me, Aoba looks reluctant to call the signs -- she even starts by saying, "Sorry," -- and she's looking down at the rosin bag in her hands. But her desire to win kinda shows in her face as she looks up.

There's another moment that I think back up my theory -- she bunts at her at-bat in the sixth. She should be good enough of a batter that she can get on base the usual way, maybe even get a home run. Of course, it's probably to mess with the pitcher and have her make mistakes. One doesn't usually bunt and then steal second unless you are counting on your team to get you home. Aoba's a true team player, too.

Oh, and here's an interesting article I stumbled upon: Girls join baseball clubs despite Koshien ban – August 1, 2008 – The Yomiuri Shimbun

[Heibi]

Originally Posted by Pellissier

A parallelism can be traced with episode 18, another anime original, where the protagonist was Risa, the acting principal's daughter. .

Actually, Risa's story is straight from the manga. Risa actually does audition for a movie role. They just combined it with the Midori "anime original" portion of the show.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Heibi

Actually, Risa's story is straight from the manga.

thanks for clearing this out, I would have done it myself, but this thread is kind of dangerous as anyone can considering some comments spoilers.

[MeoTwister5]

This thread has become something of a minefield recently.

[Proto]

I say we put all manga readers to the fire.

[BetoJR]

Aren't you a manga reader yourself?

[Proto]

Yes, to the fire myself, for I have sinned.

[BetoJR]

Take me toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...

Er...

Never mind. I just remembered I don't like hot things... no, really... so, what were we talking about, then?

[Guardian Enzo]

Burn Baby, burn.