(CR) Hibike! Euphonium Season 2

[Kanon]

I agree with you guys they actually toned down the yuri baiting a lot this season, and this is one of the reason I'm enjoying it much more than the first. Not because I don't like yuri, but because I don't like yuri that never becomes nothing more than bait.

[Arya]

^ Same here.

[GMT]

Originally Posted by Arya

I also thought that Reina and Kumiko have been quite distant the whole second season, and honestly the last episode didn't work much in making them get closer again. I don't know, I felt the Kumiko's "go on, she is dead after all" to be quite inconsiderate and cold coming from someone like Kumiko from any point of view. Coupling it with her obliviousness it felt like she wasn't connecting with Reina at all.

Kumiko's announcement to Reina has a lot of layers. She knows what she's saying is awful. If one assumes that Kumiko is, at least, a little interested in Reina; it comes off as her abandoning that interest, but doing so in a really passive-aggressive way. (KyoAni helpfully pushes this interpretation by having Kumiko tell Reina that she's "rooting" for her ... quite a clear call-back to the first series, where Hazuki realizes she just can't compete with Shuuichi's affection for Kumiko, and tells him that she's "rooting" for him.)

Even if one assumes that Kumiko isn't interested in Reina in that way, romance seems like it'd be antithetical to her life's philosophy. She prefers to watch from a safe distance and not risk getting hurt, or hurting others. A romantic relationship is the opposite of all that. Kumiko tries to "protect" her friend from pursuing a romantic relationship by withholding information about Taki's life from her. But when Reina makes it clear that romance, or something like it, is what she wants. Kumiko, again, has to stop protecting Reina from romance, but is really passive-aggressive about it. Later, she's even visibly irritated with Reina for sorts of questions that Reina was asking Taki; saying her questions were "stupid," and that they'd only get her hurt.

Episode 11 was really quite brilliant in wrapping up Kumiko/Reina, because it still works with or without shipping goggles.

[Shadow5YA]

Kumiko is aware rooting for Reina's love is "awful" because she is aware of the consequences. If Reina succeeds, then you are asking Taki to "forget" about his wife. If Reina fails because Taki can't get over his wife, then Kumiko is cheering for Reina to go suicide mission.

Even without yuri shipping goggles, Kumiko knows there are high hurdles to be crossed. But despite that, she still wants Reina to be true to her feelings and try anyway, even if she might get hurt along the way.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by GMT

They've not "ramped-up" the "yuribaiting" at all in this season. If anything, the "yuri" ship took a Taki torpedo amidships and sank before the end of the season it was introduced.

Yes, Kumiko and Reina have a lot of interactions, but if one tries not to look at them through shipping glasses; one finds they are curiously distant for a relationship that's going to go somewhere romantically. Because of the obvious degree of distance between Kumiko and Reina, the only thing a rational viewer can conclude is that they are simply friends; regardless of what's going on in each person's head or pants.

Kumiko got friend-zoned in episode 10 of the first series (when Reina first told her about her love of Taki.) And just in case that wasn't clear enough, her friend-zone got friend-zoned in episode eleven of this series, when Reina's love of Taki matured into something that she, at least, had an idea of how to pursue.. For Reina, it's always been all about the hot teacher; and I feel the series has made that abundantly clear (the ear blushes, the morning teacher stalking ritual, the dead eyes of unhappiness, the yandere-terrritory behavior, etc, etc, etc.)

Kumiko's been avoiding Shuuichi most of the series. But there's no rational reason for her to do so. Just like there was no rational reason for her to hate on Mamiko so much. And they've presented myriad clues that she doesn't hate Shuuichi nearly as much as she claims, and there is at least one hint that her situation with Mamiko has caused her to start to re-think her relationship with Shuuichi.

I'm not bothered by the PV. Kumiko is something of an insomniac, and random plot advancement tends to happen when she can't sleep. All I'm expecting is going to happen between Kumiko and Shuuichi is that she's going to admit that she's been a complete ass towards him; and then we'll find out if Luke Asuka meets her father on Cloud City at Nationals.

They might not have ramped it up, but I guess it just becomes readily more apparent to someone that didn't like it in the first place, with the repercussions it had. Yea, you could say they can't go back in time, but in other cases, it just feels shameless.

And sure Kumiko in-story has no reason to give a shit about Shu, but I think the audience sure does if he should participate in something important, and when his presence is made by the story making fun with him or barely being able to complete a sentence, I don't blame the characters, but I blame what the show is displaying. And the further thought that he has been sacrificed because of opportunity cost is annoying and we get reminded when he appears. And when he gets shafted just because the anime just wanted to fuck around, then that's offensive.

And don't even have to talk about Shu. So many other characters could have gotten screentime in that void. So given with past experiences with other shows, can you really blame people for hating that kind of pandering? Personally, I took it for what it was and was amused anyways, but still.

I've been saying this before season 2 even aired, and what have you, exactly as I described.

There's the reason why the word bait is used.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Kumiko is aware rooting for Reina's love is "awful" because she is aware of the consequences. If Reina succeeds, then you are asking Taki to "forget" about his wife.

Hold on. Are you saying you support life time celibacy for widows and widowers?

You ARE aware marriage vows has "till death do us part", right?

How is it awful for a man to find happiness again, after growing past personal loss? Is he suppose to kill himself to be with his dead wife? Is that even logical?

[Ulin]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Hold on. Are you saying you support life time celibacy for widows and widowers?

You ARE aware marriage vows has "till death do us part", right?

How is it awful for a man to find happiness again, after growing past personal loss? Is he suppose to kill himself to be with his dead wife? Is that even logical?

My thoughts exactly I would recommend everyone to read (or at least watch) Maison Ikkoku, one of the best examples of this.

Thanks to the less yuribaiting, I've enjoyed S2 more (I mean, I like yuri, but just when the show is suppossed to go that way, I don't like when the fans put their fanfics into the canon)

[Romanticide]

Originally Posted by AB079

while Season 1 barely reached around 60%, also ther is not that much yuri trash to pull something nonexistant as Kumiko/Reina "romantic" relationship as they did on the first season which leads to get posts like the one from @Romanticide.

Why did you call yuri fans cancerous? That seems harsh. Also my post was about how if they ARE going to make the ending Kumiko/Shuichi, they should have developed him and them as friends to make it believable.

[Kinematics]

Originally Posted by GMT

Kumiko's announcement to Reina has a lot of layers. She knows what she's saying is awful. If one assumes that Kumiko is, at least, a little interested in Reina; it comes off as her abandoning that interest, but doing so in a really passive-aggressive way. (KyoAni helpfully pushes this interpretation by having Kumiko tell Reina that she's "rooting" for her ... quite a clear call-back to the first series, where Hazuki realizes she just can't compete with Shuuichi's affection for Kumiko, and tells him that she's "rooting" for him.)

Even if one assumes that Kumiko isn't interested in Reina in that way, romance seems like it'd be antithetical to her life's philosophy. She prefers to watch from a safe distance and not risk getting hurt, or hurting others. A romantic relationship is the opposite of all that. Kumiko tries to "protect" her friend from pursuing a romantic relationship by withholding information about Taki's life from her. But when Reina makes it clear that romance, or something like it, is what she wants. Kumiko, again, has to stop protecting Reina from romance, but is really passive-aggressive about it. Later, she's even visibly irritated with Reina for sorts of questions that Reina was asking Taki; saying her questions were "stupid," and that they'd only get her hurt.

Episode 11 was really quite brilliant in wrapping up Kumiko/Reina, because it still works with or without shipping goggles.

Yeah, more and more, season 2 has let me drop the Kumiko/Reina pairing. Reina is very clearly not interested in Kumiko that way, though I still believe Kumiko is interested in Reina that way. And I'm thinking the title for Episode 11 ("First Love Trumpet"), ambiguous as it was, was meant to refer to both of them. Reina's first love: Taki; and Kumiko's first love: Reina. And both of them ended.

Ironically, I think I'd have greater respect for KyoAni if that really was their intent, there. Both Kumiko and Reina reached a point where they realized their first love would never happen, but Reina reaffirmed her resolve with a greater maturity, while Kumiko took the path of moving on, as a reflection of her own growth in dealing with Asuka.

Just like Mamiko, Aoi, and Asuka each took different paths when given the problem of the conflict between societal expectations and their own desires, Reina and Kumiko each take different paths in dealing with the ending of their first love. Did Kumiko see herself as the Mizore to Reina's Nozomi? Unable to move on by herself when not being propped up by the person she admired? She could either pine and wait for Reina to notice and come back (which isn't going to happen), or step out onto her own path. It's an appropriate reflection of her own growth from the very beginning of the series, which was heavily driven by her connection to Reina, compared to how she's matured by the time of dealing with Asuka.

That said, I still can't see a Shuichi pairing as viable or believable. If KyoAni tries to make that happen, I'll just call bullshit and ignore it. There are fundamental problems with that relationship that have never been addressed, and slapping on a final 'win' for Shuichi right at the end of the series would leave a bad taste in my mouth.

[BleedingUranium]

It really wouldn't be any different than the Mamiko resolution. You know, the one that left Kumiko crying on a train by the halfway point of the episode.

I think the aversion to Shuuichi being a potential romantic partner is because people expect a main character's partner to be just as much a main character themselves (e.g. Reina). The idea of a main character dating a less-than-main character is a foreign concept to a lot of people I think.

But is it a bad thing? In a story not focused on romance, couldn't the main character just happen to be dating someone, and it not be a real plot point or issue? Just "oh yeah, she's dating this guy, but it's not really that important".

[Romanticide]

Originally Posted by BleedingUranium

I think the aversion to Shuuichi being a potential romantic partner is because people expect a main character's partner to be just as much a main character themselves (e.g. Reina). The idea of a main character dating a less-than-main character is a foreign concept to a lot of people I think.

But is it a bad thing? In a story not focused on romance, couldn't the main character just happen to be dating someone, and it not be a real plot point or issue? Just "oh yeah, she's dating this guy, but it's not really that important".

But the problem is we don't know anything really important about him. He doesn't have to be a main character, but we need to understand him, and we haven't gotten that. I mean, it's just really difficult to imagine how two people can get together when we don't...really see how they act towards each other. Beyond Kumiko's "geh" sounds and Shuichi just...being around but not getting to say much. I mean, even DBZ wasn't about romance but we still saw how Bulma and Vegeta were, IIRC.

[shanimebib]

Amazing PV for episode 12. Riled up an entire nation against a poor guy who practically has been a background character since I don't know when.

But if I dare say so myself, and please don't bite my head off for saying something like this — I always thought Shuuichi had a huge prospect of getting together with Kumiko the moment she dropped her egg-roll from her chopstick at the end of episode 7. Her reaction back then just didn't add up. And I wasn't aware of the novel's ending at that point either.

It's true that Shuuichi's screen-time had gone missing in the second season but I always thought season 1 left us with enough hints that would make me think Kumiko's harsh treatment towards him needed to stop because it seemed she was trying too hard to convince herself otherwise.

Do I want Kumiko x Shuuichi to happen? If I am being cynical like Kumiko, "Absolutely YES!". Particularly because I had to digest hate comments and replies from Kumiko x Reina fans for being a fan of Shuuichi since season 1. If I am being logical, the answer would probably be a "moderate yes" as well because that would show Asuka has really peeled off Kumiko's fake skin.

Do I think Kumiko x Shuuichi would happen? It's impossible to tell. I would say there is a big chance that it could happen at this point just because the PV seemed so languid that it seemed like it was trying a bit too hard to be like that and could explode in the next second (being cut off).

[BleedingUranium]

Originally Posted by shanimebib

Amazing PV for episode 12. Riled up an entire nation against a poor guy who practically has been a background character since I don't know when.

I think I'll just second your entire post. :3

[deadite]

At this point it's willful ignorance to think Shuichi means nothing to Kumiko. He is one of the closest characters to her next to Mamiko and Reina. Shuichi is one of the few people who knows real Kumiko. He's basically family. This arc pretty much cements Kumiko's non confrontational attitude to things that matter to her. It's subtle but the reason Kumiko is so distant to Shu is because he is really close to her. Closer than even Midori and Hazuki. It doesn't add up why Kumiko is being distant to someone who is basically famly. Asuka already explained all this.

[shanimebib]

OMG! If this 'claimed to be an' official art that got leaked is real, I mean REAL real then I think there is not much to debate here.

Spoiler:

We are heading for an Italian White end.

[Romanticide]

@deadite: Why does she refuse to even talk to him most of the time though?

Originally Posted by shanimebib

OMG! If this 'claimed to be an' official art that got leaked is real, I mean REAL real then I think there is not much to debate here.

Spoiler:

We are heading for an Italian White end.

Saw that months ago. And it's official iirc.

[deadite]

Are you not reading my post. Kumiko doesnt want to face reality and get hurt. Asuka already explained this. Kumiko is afraid of the possibility of finding out her true feelings for Shuichi so she avoids him. She's afraid of being hurt and hurting others so she watches from a safe distance. The Nozomi/Mizore arc and Asuka arc are supposed to be revelation on Kumiko's world view and attitudes. She doesnt want to take the next step. But she slowly is with her sister and Asuka. Disliking Shuichi is one of those masks Reina is talking about. This subtle element of Kumiko's character is completely lost to yuri fans.

[shanimebib]

Originally Posted by Romanticide

@deadite: Why does she refuse to even talk to him most of the time though?

If I were to answer (I hope deadite won't mind), deadite already explained it in the post you are referring to.

Linking something from MAL because I don't know if this was discussed here in animesuki. Because I think most of the fans couldn't see it when it happened.

Originally Posted by Romanticide

Saw that months ago. And it does look official.

Spoiler for Light Novel spoilers:

It matches the hairpin he gives her in the novel.

Oh, didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by shanimebib

Particularly because I had to digest hate comments and replies from Kumiko x Reina fans for being a fan of Shuuichi since season 1.

Why anyone would call yuri fans cancerous, eh?

Originally Posted by shanimebib

I always thought Shuuichi had a huge prospect of getting together with Kumiko the moment she dropped her egg-roll from her chopstick at the end of episode 7. Her reaction back then just didn't add up.

I think Shuuichi trying to behave "as usual" without being obtrusive, and Kumiko just don't know what to do. Whether it is because she don't want to hurt Shuichi or unsure of her own feelings I have no idea. I myself prefer nonconclusive ending on Kumiko x Shuuichi in vein "maybe they end up together, maybe not." It is not the point of the story after all.

[Romanticide]

Originally Posted by shanimebib

Oh, didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know.

No problem.

@deadite: She seemed so upfront with everyone else though. It just seems odd.