(CR) Hibike! Euphonium Season 2

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Which brings us back to the main topic: Which was the intended story--the one imposed by the production staff of KyoAni, OR the original story that the anime series was based on?

It would be tough to determine the answer to this unless we find out the level of relevance the Kumiko-Shuuichi moment in the entirety of the upcoming episode. After all, it could just be a little thing and the "vocal fans" are exaggerating.

Every person I know who has ACTUALLY read the novels--in Japanese--have pointed out that the anime staff have not changed the overall tone of the relationships. Not in the slightest.

What has happened is a lot of the shippers have not understood what the nature of some of these relationships are, the tensions within them, and where they are headed.

[AB079]

Originally Posted by karice67

Every person I know who has ACTUALLY read the novels--in Japanese--have pointed out that the anime staff have not changed the overall tone of the relationships. Not in the slightest.

What has happened is a lot of the shippers have not understood what the nature of some of these relationships are, the tensions within them, and where they are headed.

And seems like your friends like to skip details too. This is from an interview that shows what Kyoani did to the romantic interactions between the characters (add the previous post of @Marcus H with another fragment).

"Hanada: Yes. We trimmed the points where he greedily went after things and changed his expressions. And we didn’t have him set an obvious “romance flag.”
Oguro: Since he set no flags, then his heart wouldn’t be broken either.
Hanada: We thought that he’d be really pitiful if we broke his heart too badly.
Oguro: The point of this work wasn’t to depict his love, after all.
Hanada: Right, it’s not. If we were to depict it, as has been done in many other shows where childhood friend doesn’t recognize his feelings, that would turn Kumiko into a thickheaded girl. While that may be good for a comedy, it’s not good for Euphonium. Also, if we were to do that, it would approach a shojo manga-type setting. We wanted both genders to be able to watch this show, so we decided not to push that much of a shojo manga romance setting."

Kyoani tried to keep any type of romanticism away from Hibike but the problem with doing that is how they can't cut everything from the story because some of those developments have actual impact in the plot, there you have Reina and Taki as the best example of that.

The bad thing of doing that type of move is how other badly developed relationships like Kumiko X Suichi suffered from that and lost any credibility, everyone who has zero knowledge of the Novels can say Suichi is almost like a random character with no weight in this story.

Personally I understand why Kyoani decided to do that but the way they executed that desition was the wrong one, the consequences are evident:

-Kumiko / Suichi was left in a very bad position, especially Suichi's little developments (also I need to recall @deadite's post about Suichi having already a very poor amount of intervention in the books which I agree as someone who knows that too).
-Reina / Kumiko ship, this was something made by Kyoani and it was on purpose. Despite what the staff and what the author said the truth is Kyoani the last 2-3 years only went with the baiting and pandering marketing strategy. The only exceptions are Koe no Katachi and Violet Evergarden (this one is coming next year and there is no way they can mess up with it thanks to how the novel is written.)
-Reina / Taki relationship, lost some of its credibility due to how Kyoani pushed the previous point too much but what is amazing about Taki is how nobody will know what is he thinking or feeling, is part of his personality and the evidence is on both the Novels and the Adaptation, this played a huge rol especially on S2 where everyone can see how important are these 2 characters and their relationship.

tl:dr, Kyoani changed some parts of the overall tone of the romantic relationships and the one that got the biggest backlash was Suichi. The problem is Kyoani and the author, not the shippers and viewers.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by AB079

And seems like your friends like to skip details too. This is from an interview that shows what Kyoani did to the romantic interactions between the characters (add the previous post of @Marcus H with another fragment).

*snip

First, they're not my "friends" per se, just people I follow on twitter and stuff.

And second, I've read what Hanada said (both in Japanese and English, mind -- I checked that Animestyle translation), and no, I disagree with the way you've interpreted this interview.

They chose not to set an "obvious" romance flag because this story--and I'm referring to the novels!!--is not about romance. That's what Hanada is saying. And that's why this debate, which has gone on for far too long, is so incredibly stupid.

At it's heart, Sound! Euphonium is about how a group of young people tackle adolescence. It's about "youth" (青春) and "music" (音楽) and has been ever since the first PVs for the first series aired. And within the framework these two themes, it's about what Kumiko, in particular, learns about herself in this one year of her life. Romance is peripheral because it IS peripheral. It's just one part of "youth," and a part that the original author acknowledged but did not want to focus on.

So if any of you are focusing on it, it's your prerogative, and thus, your problem.

[AB079]

Originally Posted by karice67

First, they're not my "friends" per se, just people I follow on twitter and stuff.

And second, I've read what Hanada said (both in Japanese and English, mind -- I checked that Animestyle translation), and no, I disagree with the way you've interpreted this interview.

They chose not to set an "obvious" romance flag because this story--and I'm referring to the novels!!--is not about romance. That's what Hanada is saying. And that's why this debate, which has gone on for far too long, is so incredibly stupid.

Being or not your friends doesn't change the fact that Kyoani did changed the way how these little parts focused on romance were changed, and I repeat, that was done especially on Kumiko / Suichi relationship. You can agree or disagree on what I said but the interview is very clear about it despite the motivations to do it, which personally I think it was a good idea (and I said this a couple of episodes before in this same forum) but I think Hibike! would benefit a lot if these romantic developments were nonexistant, maybe Taki/Reina can stay but everything else should have even less screentime.

Seems like you don't realize the problem with this adaptation, pushing a kind-of-yuri relationship between 2 of the main characters as a bait have some consequences and we can see them now on season 2 thanks to how those relationships evolved in the story. Obviously Hibike was never intended to be focused on romanticism or anything like that (I'm talking about the Novel), Hibike is about music, growing up, young people dealing with their problems and families, but nobody can avoid this current problem and how the adaptation got this kind of response from the viewers and some of the Novel readers.

Originally Posted by karice67

At it's heart, Sound! Euphonium is about how a group of young people tackle adolescence. It's about "youth" (青春) and "music" (音楽) and has been ever since the first PVs for the first series aired. And within the framework these two themes, it's about what Kumiko, in particular, learns about herself in this one year of her life. Romance is peripheral because it IS peripheral. It's just one part of "youth," and a part that the original author acknowledged but did not want to focus on.

So if any of you are focusing on it, it's your prerogative, and thus, your problem.

Promotional material =/= what Kyoani delivered. This is precisely what happened with Hibike and other works made by kyoani, there you have Phantom World, Chuu2, Tamako Market (I can even give you a detailed explanation about PW and what happened to that but that's wayyyyy off topic). The show is giving us a twisted version of what they promoted and that's entirely the Studio's fault, or are you going to tell me everyone (which is most of the viewers) is wrong?

I agree with you on the fact that Romance in Hibike is peripheral but the way how the studio handled those changes were wrong and now you can see on 2ch, 4ch, MAL, Reddit, AS and other places how similar are the reactions about that. If you have a different POV is okay and is nice, but not everyone share your opinion and what people is discussing is basically the general POV.

[Marcus H.]

They chose not to set an "obvious" romance flag because this story--and I'm referring to the novels!!--is not about romance. That's what Hanada is saying. And that's why this debate, which has gone on for far too long, is so incredibly stupid.

Why do they have to take out romance in "a story that's not about romance"?
I assume that the author was able to convey what he wanted to convey WITH the romantic aspects, so why can't KyoAni do it?
Are they so threatened by writing a story about people ending up falling in love while trying to reach the Nationals that they thought it's better to just scrap what had been a part of the original LNs? And look what it did to the story now.

Even Major did a great job in developing the romance between Goro and Shimizu while allowing his progress up the ranks of professional baseball. (I know that Major six seasons, but anyway.)

At it's heart, Sound! Euphonium is about how a group of young people tackle adolescence. It's about "youth" (青春) and "music" (音楽) and has been ever since the first PVs for the first series aired.

Youth and music can co-exist with adolescence, and romance is an almost natural process in adolescence, first love or not.

[BleedingUranium]

You keep stating these supposed "problems" as fact. They're not.

They're a matter of perspective at best. I've seen this far too many times, the viewers blaming the show/studio for their own personal perspective/expectation problems.


People are blowing these interviews and such way out of proportion as well. KyoAni simply refined the story to better match the intended tone of the story. It's really very simple.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by AB079

Seems like you don't realize the problem with this adaptation, pushing a kind-of-yuri relationship between 2 of the main characters as a bait have some consequences and we can see them now on season 2 thanks to how those relationships evolved in the story.

But it did not push the relationship as a romantic one. That's just how viewers chose to see it. And it's also how some novel readers chose to see it (and yes, I'm including at least one of the novel readers I referred to in a previous post).

As BleedingUranium notes, it's a matter of perspective.

Originally Posted by AB079

Promotional material =/= what Kyoani delivered. This is precisely what happened with Hibike and other works made by kyoani, there you have Phantom World, Chuu2, Tamako Market. The show is giving us a twisted version of what they promoted and that's entirely the Studio's fault, or are you going to tell me everyone (which is most of the viewers) is wrong?

Yup, that's precisely what I'm saying. All that the vast majority of viewers in the Western fandom seems to care about is 'romance', and that's why you all interpret scenes the way you do. And it's not just Takeda and Yamada wrt Eupho. Creators like Mitsurou Kubo and even Joss Whedon, have been pushing back against this for quite a few years, but most people just don't notice because everyone just wants to see what they want to see, and then amplify each other in the echo chamber.

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Why do they have to take out romance in "a story that's not about romance"?

They didn't. It's there, in the background. Which is exactly what the novels did (despite what so many people who haven't actually read the novels are trying to say).

[AB079]

@BleedingUranium Kyoani "refined" Hibike so now the viewers see it as an almost yuri show... yeah that's the tone of the story, sure.

Kyoani "refined" PW so the viewers see it as another harem series, completely deleting everything in the story since ep 4-5... that's the tone of the story then right?

Kyoani "refined" Chuu2 so the viewers can see it as some sort of abomination and literally give it the Darker Than Black treatement (S2) so that was intended right?

Is unbelievable how you always want to hide and defend what Kyoani did just because you like it.


----------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by karice67

But it did not push the relationship as a romantic one. That's just how viewers chose to see it. And it's also how some novel readers chose to see it (and yes, I'm including at least one of the novel readers I referred to in a previous post).

As BleedingUranium notes, it's a matter of perspective.

Perspective is a way to see this problem, but this is what Kyoani is been doing for the last years, the point of view of the people who watch their shows is influenced by what the Studio is doing with the adaptations. It's a 50/50 fault between the studio and the viewers.

Originally Posted by karice67

Yup, that's precisely what I'm saying. All that the vast majority of viewers in the Western fandom seems to care about is 'romance', and that's why you all interpret scenes the way you do. And it's not just Takeda and Yamada Eupho. Creators like Mitsurou Kubo and even Joss Whedon, have been pushing back against this for quite a few years, but most people just don't notice because everyone just wants to see what they want to see, and then amplify each other in the echo chamber.

That's your POV and I agree with you entirely but look at what we have now, everyone is looking at the series with different type of googles and recalling an older post from myself, I hate to see this kind of bullshit because Hibike wasn't intended to be appreciated like this.

Btw this happens on japanese sites too but in a smaller scale tho. Western fanbase is... very special?

Originally Posted by karice67

They didn't. It's there, in the background. Which is exactly what the novels did (despite what so many people who haven't actually read the novels are trying to say).

Exactly, in the Novels was like this (only what happened with Taki got more screentime tho and this is without going into spoiler territory). What would happened if Hibike was adapted in like 24 episodes? will that change how people see this?

[Marcus H.]

karice: Speak for yourself, please. All I care is staff intervention and its effects on the original story.
The only reason I'm talking about Shuuichi is because he's the reminder of how much he (and a part of the story) was gutted to make way for #adolescence.

It's gonna be like Dagashi Kashi all over again, where the staff think they know the story better than the author.

[Flower]

You know ... there is something to be said to agreeing to disagree on a topic. -_-

Maybe cool down things in here a bit, okay? I am all for discussion and all, but these discussions have been chewed and beaten to death in my opinion. Let's move on, okay?

I would really rather not have to close the thread for just a little bit here to "make" everyone cool their heads.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

karice: Speak for yourself, please. All I care is staff intervention and its effects on the original story.
The only reason I'm talking about Shuuichi is because he's the reminder of how much he (and a part of the story) was gutted to make way for #adolescence.

It's gonna be like Dagashi Kashi all over again, where the staff think they know the story better than the author.

Takeda, the original novel author, worked with KyoAni on the adaptation!! And in fact, the adaptation influenced how she wrote at least the last two, if not three books! And she approves of what KyoAni did!

FHS, If you care about staff intervention, then at least go and look up who was involved in the project and how everything played out!

[Marcus H.]

Oh, I stand corrected then.
Dafuq is Takeda's intention in pushing out Shuuichi into the background, though?

[Flower]

Ahem?

[Marcus H.]

I just need a little clarification, Flower.
Personally, my view of Hibike currently clashes with whatever the intentions of the staff (and the author) are, and that's the first time it happened, since I was reminded of how KyoAni tends to change a lot things in their adaptation nowadays.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Oh, I stand corrected then.
Dafuq is Takeda's intention in pushing out Shuuichi into the background, though?

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I just need a little clarification, Flower.

To answer that question, I think you'll need to understand the nature of the Kumiko-Shuuichi relationship and how it developed in this story.

I'd suggesting rereading some analyses on the last two pages here, waiting for the anime to end, and then go looking for the Takeda fanbook interview, which has recently been translated.

[Flower]

You know ... I was asking for the subject to be dropped for the moment and it sorta means just that ... I think that it would be better for it to be carried on in pm or vm.

Still, I can understand that it is hard to remove oneself from the middle of a discussion when one feels it is half finished or the like. So for now for a bit I will just close the thread for a little bit and let people cool their heads.

Edit: thread re-opened. Let's try to move ahead with the discussion, okay? Thanks for everyone's patience. ^^

[deadite]

I'd like to see a how Hibike! Euphonium anime would look if it was exactly like the novel in that we just follow Kumiko and her POV. The novel never goes away from her POV. She is the only main character who we get into their thoughts.

[deadite]

Originally Posted by karice67

To answer that question, I think you'll need to understand the nature of the Kumiko-Shuuichi relationship and how it developed in this story.

I'd suggesting rereading some analyses on the last two pages here, waiting for the anime to end, and then go looking for the Takeda fanbook interview, which has recently been translated.

Analysis are all well and good but this subtelty in the story is completely lost on the majority of the audience. Only a small percentage of the audience understand that Kumiko's attitude of Shuichi is because of her personaility. Majority of the audience thinks she hates him and I don't blame them. The show shows so little of her inner struggle in trying to reconcile with Shuichi.

[Romanticide]

To be fair, she does ignore him, and not in a tsundere "i really like you but i'm going to attack you and blame you for things that aren't your fault" way.

[shanimebib]

Originally Posted by Sixth

Why do you guys want to punish Kumiko so badly by pairing her with Shu? At this point, even a random faceless guy is a better candidate for Kumiko.

+1.

My thought exactly. Let's not punish her anymore. She have had enough from the fans already. Let those who have the power (Takeda, Yamada, Ishihara, Harada et al) to punish her if they want to. It's their story after all.

As a random faceless fan, I just hope that she becomes happy.

Moving on with more pressing concerns at hand, I really hope they focus on the last contest (as the episode title suggests) and we get to see some new footage, not just the stage or the surrounding but actual playing. One of the reviews in a blog demonstrated the attention to details in the performance shown in episode 5.

I remember one of my friends (who doesn't watch anime btw) praising some clips of K-On for the details they have put on the guitars, bass and drums since he plays in a band too. It's really nice to have friends in music because another friend of mine (who doesn't watch anime either) praised Kumiko's rant over Hatoko's rant.

Excerpting from MAL:

I showed the two clips: Hayami Saori's Hatoko Outburst and Kurosawa Tomoyo's Kumiko Outburst to one of my friends who isn't into anime but is a singer himself, who have actually learned singing through music school from a very young age, for his opinion and he said Tomoyo's was much more impressive even if it was shorter. He explained that Saori's rant was powerful but it had a more relaxed spectrum. Tomoyo's voice literally reverberated with sudden ups and downs from one word to the next which is an extremely difficult thing to pull off.

I know it's a bit late to ask, but did you guys enjoy her performance in episode 10?