K-On! General Discussion Thread

[Infinite Zenith]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I was confused what you were referring to, so here's the original post in case anyone else is looking for the source.

https://forums.animesuki.com/showthr...87#post4276687

All in all, I don't think there was really much point in doing a point-by-point rebuttal to someone's review from 9 years ago. Even if you had given the rebuttal at the time, it's not like you're going to change their mind anyway. The movie was simply not for them because the whole franchise was not for them. It's not written in such a way that they can appreciate or engage with -- a fundamental mismatch of expectations and results.

Basically what you're trying to convey in your rebuttal is this whole show is about the characters and their developing relationships with each other. All the other "stuff" that happens is the setting and a catalyst to develop the characters -- it matters in as much as they tried to bring some authenticity to it, but it's not really the point. At the same time, that's exactly what the person you're back-hand-replying to hated about it -- that's why they called it "disingenuous."

Really, this is the whole nature of subjectivity -- viewing the same thing but seeing it in a different way. There are definitely other people who will watch K-On and have the same reaction he did because they are just wired a certain way or experience media in a certain way. In that sense, his review is not as "misguided" as you think -- to people on the same wavelength, what he's saying will make sense to them. But it's just one perspective. I'm not really sure that much of what he said was objectively untrue (if overly strongly-stated, perhaps), but to those who enjoyed it, it's like they experienced something completely different -- because they did, when you take perspective into account.

No matter how pointed or strongly-worded someone's review is, it's just an opinion. And sometimes finding someone whose perspective is the most opposite of your own can be just as useful as finding someone whose opinions you tend to agree with.

So that's where the original text was from: thanks for providing the context. My objective wasn't ever to convince those who intrinsically dislike K-On! to change their minds with my rebuttal, but rather, to give the people in the middle, who may be swayed by Recokoner's impassioned rant, another perspective to look at, and also to show that not everyone here is so vehemently opposed to K-On!. Having now had a chance to read through the thread, I actually do wish I'd been there sooner, specifically to get a better understanding of those who enjoyed the movie but did end up agreeing with Reckoner's rant.

The topic of subjectivity has been discussed ad nauseam, and I've never had a problem with hearing thoughts from different sides. However, I do disagree that there is value in agreeing with pointed and poorly-worded arguments. Picking certain words and taking a certain tone means closing the door to discussion, and while it might be interesting to see what another side says, when the tone is in that manner, usually, one would expect people with a different opinion to simply read it and move on. Conversely, if one were to be a bit more civil, there'd be room for a conversation. Reckoner certainly didn't need to go out of their way to attack the studio or the staff for the film: there are ways of being critical without being insulting, and what's useful to me is someone who can successfully do that, to convince me of the merits of another side without resorting to petty insults.

Looking through the old thread, what baffles me is that there were a lot of forum members looked like they were treading on eggshells when they replied to Reckoner. On one hand, they wanted to disagree, but given the way they worded their replies, they also wanted to avoid something and ended up giving an ambivalent response that leaned towards agreement with the rant (e.g. "I liked the movie, but Reckoner convinced me not to like it"). Since I joined shortly after, I'm not sure why so much caution was being exercised – this is a forum, after all, and it struck me as very strange that it sounds like some people were self-censoring. I vaguely remember that a large change happened around here some time after I joined, too, and can't help but wonder if prior to that change, something about Reckoner was probably preventing people from speaking their minds? As it stands, however, it's probably best to not dig too much deeper. The thread leaves me with more questions than answers, and the people I'd like to chat with most to understand the disconnect between their unexpected shift in opinions are now inactive.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Infinite Zenith

Looking through the old thread, what baffles me is that there were a lot of forum members looked like they were treading on eggshells when they replied to Reckoner. On one hand, they wanted to disagree, but given the way they worded their replies, they also wanted to avoid something and ended up giving an ambivalent response that leaned towards agreement with the rant (e.g. "I liked the movie, but Reckoner convinced me not to like it"). Since I joined shortly after, I'm not sure why so much caution was being exercised – this is a forum, after all, and it struck me as very strange that it sounds like some people were self-censoring. I vaguely remember that a large change happened around here some time after I joined, too, and can't help but wonder if prior to that change, something about Reckoner was probably preventing people from speaking their minds? As it stands, however, it's probably best to not dig too much deeper. The thread leaves me with more questions than answers, and the people I'd like to chat with most to understand the disconnect between their unexpected shift in opinions are now inactive.

I honestly think you're reading an awful lot into it.

There was really no point in having an impassioned debate about it, even then. A lot of people in that thread had known him for a long time. He had his point of view, but the things he disliked about it really had very little bearing on the things others liked about it. I can see objectively where he's coming from, but it's honestly irrelevant to those who enjoyed it. He will never be swayed by talk in that thread, and I really think you're overplaying his ability to sway others (except those who already come from a similar point of view anyway). The movie is a final send-off for the cast, so it was never really setting out to bring in that many new fans to the mix in the first place. That doesn't mean it's beyond criticism, obviously, but criticism from someone with that point of view has a fairly limited audience at that point. (If you made it that far in the franchise, you really should have already decided how you feel about its core construct. A criticism that amounts to "if you never liked K-On, the movie isn't going to change your mind" is a valid perspective, but was never really a goal.)

I agree that people should be more considerate when stating their opinions, and I've made this point extensively over the years. Attacking the people who make the anime or those who enjoy it is absolutely wrong and unacceptable (and, is against the Forum Rules). But -- maybe it's because I've gotten older now, I don't know -- at some point someone's enjoyment of a thing can't be so fragile that one person's angry review causes you to get that defensive, especially when their biases were obvious coming into it. You just waste a lot of energy. In my opinion, better to just keep talking about the reasons you liked it and why and move on.

[Infinite Zenith]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I honestly think you're reading an awful lot into it.

There was really no point in having an impassioned debate about it, even then. A lot of people in that thread had known him for a long time. He had his point of view, but the things he disliked about it really had very little bearing on the things others liked about it. I can see objectively where he's coming from, but it's honestly irrelevant to those who enjoyed it. He will never be swayed by talk in that thread, and I really think you're overplaying his ability to sway others (except those who already come from a similar point of view anyway). The movie is a final send-off for the cast, so it was never really setting out to bring in that many new fans to the mix in the first place. That doesn't mean it's beyond criticism, obviously, but criticism from someone with that point of view has a fairly limited audience at that point. (If you made it that far in the franchise, you really should have already decided how you feel about its core construct. A criticism that amounts to "if you never liked K-On, the movie isn't going to change your mind" is a valid perspective, but was never really a goal.)

Actually, there was every reason to debate such a perspective. My goal was never to sway Reckoner himself, but rather, the people in the thread who had agreed with him despite liking the movie themselves. When a forum has a member who can shut down discussion on virtue of their reputation, and force others to self-censor or modify their own enjoyment to avoid something like being neg-repped, there's a problem; now that I think about it, it appears that the now-defunct reputation system was behind why things devolved the way they did. Had no one in the thread agreed with Reckoner, there wouldn't have been a problem. Reckoner's rant was never meant to have a message for other audiences, but rather, it was one final bit of unconstructive vitriol that accomplished nothing more than insulting the cast and fans. This is why it was so unusual that there was any sort of agreement at all with Reckoner like the following:

"I do agree with [Reckoner's] thoughts about the London trip, there wasn't really anything done with the setting other than a few gags with the girls' Engrish."

"No grief here. I'm not at all bothered by your movie-review-turned-generic-K-on!-rant"

It becomes clear that others in the thread were worried about offending these senior members, who clearly enjoyed their authority, which is why they were so eager to agree with Reckoner: they were worried about their hard-earned reputation being stripped away in moments because Reckoner couldn't accept that there were other perspectives besides his own. We recall that prior to its removal, the reputation system was taken so seriously that anyone with the red dot would be ostrised and ignored. It became clear that reputation here meant a great deal to many users, and Reckoner himself has admitted it was a way of keeping people in line as well as affirming his own correctness. However, just because Reckoner had spent more time here than most does not make his opinions more valid or authoritative, and this was a leading reason in why I whole-heartedly supported the decision to disable the reputation system altogether. Unsurprisingly, Reckoner's activity has dropped; without this form of validation, Reckoner's activity has declined. It was never about the "analysis" or "intelligent discussions" as he claimed, but rather, a form of validation, not unlike people who farm retweets or upvotes.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I agree that people should be more considerate when stating their opinions, and I've made this point extensively over the years. Attacking the people who make the anime or those who enjoy it is absolutely wrong and unacceptable (and, is against the Forum Rules). But -- maybe it's because I've gotten older now, I don't know -- at some point someone's enjoyment of a thing can't be so fragile that one person's angry review causes you to get that defensive, especially when their biases were obvious coming into it. You just waste a lot of energy. In my opinion, better to just keep talking about the reasons you liked it and why and move on.

I would argue that it was Reckoner whose enjoyment of things was fragile. He had every chance to not watch the movie and focus on the series that were suitable for him. Instead, he willfully chose to watch the movie knowing full well he would not enjoy it; Reckoner was not interested in discussion that day as much as he was in causing trouble, and this was (admittedly, cleverly) hidden behind a rant. As such, there is a reason why Reckoner's attitudes are a sticking point for me: it's not about the differing opinions as much as the double-standard in the fact that he was allowed to outright suppress discussions contradicting his own thoughts, but when someone else raised valid points, that someone did not deserve to be heard. If you look back at some of the posts, you'll find that these were pretty well-reasoned, and far more deserving of agreement from others in the thread than anything Reckoner had to say. All of this boils down to treating members of the forum fairly, and that means giving all members their chance to be heard, rather than just someone with a lot of green dots beneath their name.

On another note, it's now been exactly a decade since K-On! The Movie screened in Japan. I still remember the day the movie came out: while moviegoers queued up for the film in Japan, I was sitting in a lecture hall. It wouldn't be until July where I'd actually have a chance to see the movie, when the BDs came out, but since then, I've rewatched the movie at least once a year, every year, for the past decade. This movie exemplifies Kyoto Animation's magic in making the ordinary, extraordinary, and the fact that the film has endured is a testament to the things it excels at doing. I have a much more extensive set of thoughts on why the film is as successful at it is on my blog, since I can't fit all of my thoughts here, and I daresay that I do a much better job than Reckoner does of showing why the positives outweigh the negatives. Trenton Dawn and others, if you're out there, know that thoughts like these exist, and it is not too late to retract your support of Reckoner's stances.

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[Infinite Zenith]

Today marks the 10 year mark to K-On! The Movie's home release, and I still remember how tangible excitement here was surrounding the the prospect of finally being able to watch the movie after an 8-month long wait. Ten years later, the K-On! forum is retired, and many of this site's biggest K-On! fans are inactive. This is unfortunate, because over the past ten years, after rewatching the film and series annually, I've come to find subtle cues and elements in both the TV anime and movie that show K-On! as a whole is as deep, meaningful and insightful as philosophical "masterpieces" like Ergo Proxy or Legend of the Galactic Heroes. For instance, during the second season, an episode that portrays Azusa spending time with Ui and Jun comes across as being extraneous at first glance, but after careful analysis, it turns out this side story, seemingly throwaway filler, actually foreshadows the manga's events and becomes something the movie greatly expands on (my blog post covers this much more thoroughly). Things like these are worth considering because they show K-On! as being significantly more than what the community has made it out to be. It's a clever touch that speaks to how much thought and consideration went into K-On!, showing just how deep friendships and music can be.

[Jc1]

I'm kinda late watching K-On after ignoring it for over a decade. I finally watched it last December and I'd say that it's one of the best anime I have ever seen. I also read the manga but the anime made it feel so alive. The anime adaption seems to be one of those that were created with love and care, not just a cash cow. It just goes to show that Kyoto Animation really did a splendid job with most of their works.

[RichardFromMarple]

I was also late getting into K-On, but it was worth it.