[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[kamuinoyume]

I've got a new theory I want to run by you guys. It's about Battler's mother.

First of, let me apologize, for my first theory with regard to the subjects, it was a real time-waster and had no support in actual facts, but I think this second one is actually more plausible then the other, so I'm asking you to give it a chance before dismissing it as another one of my far-fetched theories.

So, my actual guess would be that Battler's mother is actually Kyrie.

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but if you look at it from an analytical point of view, Ange and Battler are way to similar for it to be a mere coincidence. I mean, they have the same eye color, the exact shape of blue, and the exact red hair color for them to have had different mothers. The red hair color might actually come from Rudolf's family, since both Eva and Maria must have inherited that color from somewhere, and since it wasn't from Kinzo, I'm guessing from the actual grandmother, which they've yet to reveal. As for the eyes (yes, I'm talking about the anime, but come one, either the animator were so stupid as to make such a blunder or they were on to something), if I'm not mistaken, no one else in the Ushiromia family has blue eyes, and Kyrie's are black too, so, I'm guessing that they must have got that from one of Kyrie's parents. Either way, my point is that Battler and Ange are way to similar for them to have different mothers, and if Battler did prove to be Kyrie's son, that would give her at least a partial motive for murder, (since some people do suspect her, but since she's clearly not interested in the Ushiromia wealth – in the first game I remember someone saying a line along “she already has everything she needs from her parents”).

Now lets say that Asuma and Kyrie gave birth to their children in the same day (I'm only assuming this since I don't remember it being specified anywhere), and Asuma's child was stillborn, and one of the siblings might have had reason to want Asuma as Rudolf's wife instead of Kyrie (Kyrie is smart and not easy to mess with, maybe Asuma might have been dumb or they had leverage over her, or anything that would make her more convenient to be Rudolf's wife), so, they switched the two babies and made it seem like Kyrie's baby had been stillborn, instead of Asumas (Kyrie did say that the only reason she lost Rudolf was because Asuma gave birth to her baby, while hers was stillborn).

I also suspect that Rudolf might have somehow figured out that Kyrie was in fact Battler's actual mother, and these are a few reasons why:

1) If you think about it, Kyrie herself said that Rudolf always found a way to help her in need, even when he was married to Asuma.

2) And after Asuma died, Rudolf didn't waste time in getting married to Kyrie, which infuriated Battler and so, forced him to estrange himself from the family as means of rebelling against his father's disrespectful treatment of his “mother” death.

3) Battler himself mentioned that he knew Kyrie beforehand, and that the chessboard thinking he had learned from her at the time she was only his father's secretary (or coworker, I can't remember what exactly). Now, my question here would be: Why would Rudolf let his son interact with his mistress to begin with? Wouldn't Asuma protest against letting her son near his father's first date? It's not like the two didn't know about the other, Kyrie herself said that she'd been dating Rudolf first and Asuma shamefully got in the way.

4) And my last reason would be: In the first game, the night before he was killed, Rudolf told Kyrie and Battler that he had something he wanted to talk to them as a "family". Now, I'm assuming that he wanted to tell Battler about the whole "Asuma is not your mother" thing, but if that were the case, why have Kyrie tag along? I know she's his wife, but by all means, considering the strained relationship between Kyrie and Battler, and the delicacy of the subject, it would be unwise to the point of stupidity to reveal such a truth to your son in front of the woman who by all means, from Battler's point of view, had literally "stolen" his mother's place. And I doubt Rudolf is a stupid man.

Therefore, I can only conclude that Rudolf wanted to bring Kyrie along to tell her that Battler was actually her biological son.

I know, the Rudolf side is kind of sloppy, but looking at the big picture, it actually fits well together, at least in my crazy head.

So, what do you think? Makes sense or not?

[alviam099]

Possibly, but what reason would he have to hide? If he was hiding then there must be a reason to hide and there is only two reasons I can think of for him to hide.

I can made a funny joke about this

He is incompetent he doesn't want to swim from Rokkenjima to the mainland

Battler's sin 6 years ago :
Battler raped Shannon and Ange is their daughter
Asumu died from heart attack knowing this

@kamuinoyume : That makes sense even though after reading 886 pages ( believe me I've red them all )
someone already made that theory of yours

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by alviam099

@kamuinoyume : That makes sense even though after reading 886 pages ( believe me I've red them all )
someone already made that theory of yours

Well, it's good to know that I'm not alone in this!

[rogerpepitone]

kamuinoyume:

I pointed this out a while back but, if Kyrie is Battler's mother and there was a deliberate baby-switch, isn't Rudolf the most likely person to be (indeed, pretty much only person who could be) behind it?

Keep in mind that there's a pretty tight schedule. There can't be more than a few hours between when Asumu's child is stillborn and when Kyrie is falsely informed that her child was stillborn. Unless an Ushiromiya or Sumadera is hanging out at the hospital on the off-chance, it's extremely unlikely that they'd be able to hear about it in time to do anything.

Kyrie has no motive to switch. Asumu's probably still incapacitated that shortly after giving birth. (If she'd gone into labor early, she probably would have called Rudolf out to the hospital with her; he'd have to know about it.)

Finally, Rudolf is almost certain to be at the hospital, and to perform the switch, he just has to get the mother's name wrong on the birth certificate.

I think Krauss knew, or at least guessed, what had happened, and was intimating that he knew.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Renall

The issue is more that as soon as Eva is dead and Ange is on her own, Battler has no reason to continue staying away if he is willing to make contact (as the argument would be he was previously unable). Even if he's Amakusa, he has every opportunity to tell her he is when they're together on the run. Unless, that is, Amakusa is also keeping him from getting to her.

How do we know Battler doesn't try? I mean, the 1998 narrative ends soon after Eva dies, Battler probably doesn't have too much of a chance to get to her (especially with Amakusa guarding her).

Incidentially... I am starting to think that "Beatrice wanted to kidnap Battler" could be a potential motive for the killings. After all...

I'll make you my favorite furniture
I'll love you so much, and make you my toy until you turn to ashes

And this conclusion actually seems reachable after ep2. Why would she keep him? Well... last time she let him go, he didn't come back for 6 years. It's a lot easier to keep track of someone if they're in your basement :P.

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

kamuinoyume:

I pointed this out a while back but, if Kyrie is Battler's mother and there was a deliberate baby-switch, isn't Rudolf the most likely person to be (indeed, pretty much only person who could be) behind it?

Keep in mind that there's a pretty tight schedule. There can't be more than a few hours between when Asumu's child is stillborn and when Kyrie is falsely informed that her child was stillborn. Unless an Ushiromiya or Sumadera is hanging out at the hospital on the off-chance, it's extremely unlikely that they'd be able to hear about it in time to do anything.

Kyrie has no motive to switch. Asumu's probably still incapacitated that shortly after giving birth. (If she'd gone into labor early, she probably would have called Rudolf out to the hospital with her; he'd have to know about it.)

Finally, Rudolf is almost certain to be at the hospital, and to perform the switch, he just has to get the mother's name wrong on the birth certificate.

I think Krauss knew, or at least guessed, what had happened, and was intimating that he knew.

That might be a possibility, but it seems unlikely to me based on the soul fact that Rudolf clearly had no love for Asuma, since he didn't even bother waiting to get married with Kyrie afterwards. If that were the case, why marry a woman you don't love an force yourself to 12 years of wait when he could have easily proclaimed that Asuma was unworthy of being his wife and married Kyrie instead who gave birth to the baby.

My baby-switching theory was based on something like this: Nanjo, who is the family physician was bribed by one of the brothers, or by Kinzo himself (it might be possible), to perform the switch in case Asuma's baby was stillborn, or even kill Kyrie's baby if both children happened to make it out alive. It really complicates matters, but as I said, it wouldn't exactly make sense if Rudolf were the one who made the switch.

[rogerpepitone]

Or maybe Rudolf did love Asumu more than Kyrie. (Or Kyrie was the sort of person who would be willing to be "second pillow" while Asumu would not.)

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Or maybe Rudolf did love Asumu more than Kyrie. (Or Kyrie was the sort of person who would be willing to be "second pillow" while Asumu would not.)

I'll admit I might have judged Asumu and Rudolf's relationship somewhat harshly, but you'll have to excuse me for saying that NO woman would ever want to be "second best!" Especially if you consider the Kyrie from the forth game, she'd hardly give up on victory and her own son for anything.

[Marion]

I think it's rather obvious since EP 4 that Kyrie is the mother. There are tons of hints about it too.

-Ange and Battler have the same hair color, but different mothers.
-Asumu and Kyrie gave birth on the same day and even in the same hospital (second part according to EP 6.)
-It is remarked that, while Rudolf is a playboy, only Asumu and Kyrie got pregnant from him.

I personally think Rudolf did carry out the switch, but he does love both of them equally. He just might have thought Asumu was better suited to be a mother. That and Kyrie's family isn't exactly the friendliest, so he could have been worried about Battler's safety.

Although rogerpepitone, I'm curious - why do you think Krauss knew. I don't think anyone in the family actually knew about this. There isn't really any reasons to suspect it either.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

So, my actual guess would be that Battler's mother is actually Kyrie.

That’s correct. Episode 7 pretty much confirms this when Rudolf reveals this to Kyrie in the Tea Party. Many people, including myself, had already came to this conclusion well before episode 7.

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

Now lets say that Asuma and Kyrie gave birth to their children in the same day (I'm only assuming this since I don't remember it being specified anywhere)

No need to assume that since the game confirms it.

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

Kyrie is smart and not easy to mess with, maybe Asuma might have been dumb or they had leverage over her, or anything that would make her more convenient to be Rudolf's wife

Kyrie is indeed smart but she did admit that Asumu was truly the cunning one.

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

Battler himself mentioned that he knew Kyrie beforehand, and that the chessboard thinking he had learned from her at the time she was only his father's secretary (or coworker, I can't remember what exactly). Now, my question here would be: Why would Rudolf let his son interact with his mistress to begin with? Wouldn't Asuma protest against letting her son near his father's first date?

Rudolf cheated on Asumu at around the time of her death. Due to this, I find it difficult to believe that Rudolf wanted to be in the relationship with Asumu to begin with.

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

In the first game, the night before he was killed, Rudolf told Kyrie and Battler that he had something he wanted to talk to them as a "family". Now, I'm assuming that he wanted to tell Battler about the whole "Asuma is not your mother" thing, but if that were the case, why have Kyrie tag along?

That’s right, it would be easier to reveal it to them separately. However, this is probably related to the other events that occurred on the night of the incident. He may have felt he no longer had any time to keep the secret.

Originally Posted by kamuinoyume

So, what do you think? Makes sense or not?

Yep, makes sense.

Battler always trusted his family and never wanted to view them in a negative way. Beatrice pointed out on several occasion that this was a major obstacle for him to overcome. At the end of episode 7, he says to Ange that no one is bad. That coupled with how he celebrated with everyone present in the episode 6 tea party makes me believe that there probably is no culprit. That’s just my opinion though.

[Renall]

Asumu is a black hole of information. Our most prolific source on her happens to also be the one who outright admits to loathing her and who contemplated and even planned her murder(!). She's biased and doesn't hide that. Unfortunately, it presents us a major obstacle.

Biology aside, Asumu was Battler's mother. We've seen that mothers' impacts on their children are a major thematic element of the story, yet we're missing it in two very prominent places: Battler, and Kinzo's own children. What little we superficially know about Asumu and Kinzo's wife is remarkably unhelpful.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Renall

Asumu is a black hole of information. Our most prolific source on her happens to also be the one who outright admits to loathing her and who contemplated and even planned her murder(!). She's biased and doesn't hide that. Unfortunately, it presents us a major obstacle.

Biology aside, Asumu was Battler's mother. We've seen that mothers' impacts on their children are a major thematic element of the story, yet we're missing it in two very prominent places: Battler, and Kinzo's own children. What little we superficially know about Asumu and Kinzo's wife is remarkably unhelpful.

I honestly think Asumu is more significant that Kinzo's wife. The latter was mentioned maybe one or twice, here and there, but Asumu has been referenced in every game since EP 1 (although I think EP 2 might have left her out, can't remember for certain).

EP 1- Battler tells us that his actual mother is dead and he lived with her parents for six years.
EP 3- Kyrie mentions Asumu in her talk with Leviathan.
EP 4- We find out Asumu isn't Battler's mother.
EP 5- Battler says how Asumu read his a story about colonies of rabbits on the moon (and speaking of that- notice how the theme song for the Siesta Sister summoning is called 'Dance of the Moon Rabbits') which he uses as a reason to not give up on Natsuhi.
EP 6- Kyrie talks about her again.

I'm not too certain about her being specifically mentioned in EP 7, but I do know that Kyrie and Rudolf mentioned Battler's birth during the tea party.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Kyrie is indeed smart but she did admit that Asumu was truly the cunning one.

Remember that this is filtered through Kyrie's "that evil bitch stole my man" lens. Her accusation is based on jealousy, not any actual evidence that Asumu was deliberately trying to lure Rudolf away from her.

Originally Posted by Ssol

Rudolf cheated on Asumu at around the time of her death. Due to this, I find it difficult to believe that Rudolf wanted to be in the relationship with Asumu to begin with.

Rudolf constantly cheats on everyone, Kyrie included (which was confirmed by one of the extra TIPS). I don't think he can help himself. You can also make the argument that he ran to Kyrie for comfort because he was devastated by Asumu's death and she was his closest friend and confidant.

EDIT:
Incidentally, there was an implication in EP6 that this portrayal of Kyrie's crazed jealousy is derived from a pseudo-diary that Ange found, which Kyrie apparently used as a vent for her fears and frustrations. That would put it in roughly the same class as Natsuhi's diary from EP5, which we know doesn't reflect Natsuhi's current feelings.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Marion

I'm not too certain about her being specifically mentioned in EP 7, but I do know that Kyrie and Rudolf mentioned Battler's birth during the tea party.

Yasu narrative mentions she's there, that's about it. I don't think we (or Yasu) see her. If you were shooting it as a scene for an anime adaptation you could just have Yasu overhearing that Asumu and Rudolf had arrived.

Here's a tinfoil hat theory: What if Asumu is Battler's mom?

"But ep4 says he isn't, stupid!"

Well, no. In ep4, Meta-Battler cannot say that he was born from Ushiromiya Asumu. It can be said that it was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born just fine. So Meta-Battler simply need not have the same genesis as "Ushiromiya Battler," even if he represents him. There are no less than a half-dozen meta-world interpretations that completely allow this, including Meta-Battler representing real Battler but simply not being able to say it in-story because Meta-Battler is "born from" Ushiromiya Battler, not Asumu.

"So what?"

So now watch as I make Kyrie even crazier before your very eyes: Ange is also Asumu's child. Improbable? No, strangely enough!

• We do not know what Asumu looks like. However, we know what Battler and Ange look like. They resemble each other, and do not resemble Rudolf and Kyrie. While it could be artistic license, it's brutally unfair to make them look the same but with different parents. Saying Kyrie mothered both resolves it one way... but what about the other way?
• The circumstances of Asumu's death, the birth of Ange, and the marriage to Kyrie are muddled. What if it's Ange who is the swapped baby, so to speak?
• Kyrie wanted to kill Asumu. What suddenly brought this about? A second pregnancy would be a good push over the edge. But then she got her "miracle." An opportunity that both took Asumu out of the equation and gave her the means to pin Rudolf down.
• Kyrie alleges that she does not care about Ange. Eva is dumbstruck that she could not care about her own child. Kyrie laughs this off. Maybe it's because she's just nuts. Or maybe it's because that's the funniest joke in the world to her...
• All references to Asumu were wiped out. Battler was given all her pictures, etc. Ange barely knows anything about Asumu. Would she have noticed the resemblance and started questioning Kyrie's complete replacement?
• The "other Battler" is brought up but never appears. If he was never born save as Kyrie's fiction...

So yeah, here's your craziness:

Kyrie was capable of giving Rudolf everything he wanted in a partner except children. She knew he would never marry her if this obstacle were not overcome, so when Asumu became pregnant she engineered the baby swap herself (or used Asumu for that purpose). The idea was that Asumu's baby (the fictional "other Battler") would die, and Kyrie's (actually Asumu's child, our Battler) would be born, causing Rudolf to marry Kyrie instead.

But Asumu and Rudolf betrayed her and kept the baby; Kyrie had not considered the prospect that Asumu would want Rudolf for herself. Kyrie developed her "chessboard thinking" obsession so that she would never be outwitted again, and her hatred festered for 12 years until Asumu's second pregnancy. She plotted murder, but didn't need it: Asumu died in childbirth, and leaping on the opportunity, Kyrie convinced Rudolf to pretend Ange was hers and marry her. She then obsessively set about removing all traces of Asumu so that neither Ange nor Rudolf would ever betray her. However, Battler stung her by leaving the family in support of his mother, reminding Kyrie of her earlier failure and that she would never truly win.

Six years later, insert crazy, end line. Eva tragic heroism becomes double-ironic as she now spends her life covering up the truth to protect Ange from the jealous insanity of a woman who wasn't even her real mother in the first place. Score one for Team Melodrama!

[Marion]

* We do not know what Asumu looks like. However, we know what Battler and Ange look like. They resemble each other, and do not resemble Rudolf and Kyrie. While it could be artistic license, it's brutally unfair to make them look the same but with different parents. Saying Kyrie mothered both resolves it one way... but what about the other way?

Kasumi says in EP 4 that Ange has Kyrie's mouth and nose.

Ange: ".........Every time you talk to me, Oba-san, it's always about Mom. ...Am I really that much like my mother?"

Kasumi: "Yes, you are. ............That impertinent gaze. Your mouth and nose are the same too. ......Freewheeling and irresponsible. ......You thought nothing of the long history and tradition of the Sumadera family, and selfishly flew out of the house. Thanks to that, my entire life has been cleaning up your mess...!"

Kyrie wanted to kill Asumu. What suddenly brought this about? A second pregnancy would be a good push over the edge. But then she got her "miracle." An opportunity that both took Asumu out of the equation and gave her the means to pin Rudolf down.

I think she had always wanted to do it, she was just hesitant about actually going through with it.

All references to Asumu were wiped out. Battler was given all her pictures, etc. Ange barely knows anything about Asumu. Would she have noticed the resemblance and started questioning Kyrie's complete replacement?

Looking too deeply into it: Kyrie just hates Asumu and doesn't like being reminded of her. She says this in EP 3 with Battler.

The "other Battler" is brought up but never appears. If he was never born save as Kyrie's fiction...

The other Battler is either an abandoned plot point or just a title used to refer to the unborn child. We already know the 19th's man origins through EP 7, so Battler's theory about him being the 19th caller in EP 5 is just a theory he made up to counter Erika.

[luckyssol]

LyricalAura, you didn't address my last comment though.

How does Battler (after overcoming the obstacle of always viewing his family positively) after leaning the truth say that no one is bad to Ange? If you say that he's just comforting her after the nightmare Bernkastel showed to her, then what about how Battler behaved with everyone present in the episode 6 tea party? Wouldn't it be strange if one of them turns out to be the culprit?

[Renall]

Yeah but none of this can be settled because there's a massive informational gap no one but the reader has. Same is true of the inexplicable evasiveness regarding the final incident in ep4.

This is why it's cheating. If Asumom and Kinzotrice and whatnot can continue to flourish even though by all rights they shouldn't (because the characters know what is and is not happening and we don't), then essential information is being intentionally withheld to prevent speculation from narrowing on the truth.

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by Ssol

That’s correct. Episode 7 pretty much confirms this when Rudolf reveals this to Kyrie in the Tea Party. Many people, including myself, had already came to this conclusion well before episode 7.

Since I haven't actually gotten around to playing episode 7, mind telling me whether Kyrie knew if Battler was her son or not?

[luckyssol]

She didn't know that Battler was her son.

I will edit this post with the episode 7 quotes when I get to my computer at home.

Spoiler for Episode 7:

「………もし。@戦人くんが不信感を持ってると私が判断したなら。……その時は、私の手で殺すわよ。私の子 供じゃないんだから。」
Kyrie: If by chance, Battler-kun possesses distrust, if I conclude it... at that time, I will kill by my own hands. He’s not my child after all.

「……あぁ。わかってる。………だから、霧江。一つだけ、約束してくれ。」
Rudolf: Yea, I got it. That’s why, Kyrie... promise just one thing for me.

「なぁに…？」
Kyrie: What is it?

「もし、………戦人をうまく丸め込めて、島から三人で出られたら。」
Rudolf: If by chance, Battler can be successfully persuaded and when the three of us are able to leave from the island...

「………出られたら？」
Kyrie: ...when we are able to leave?

「…………………………。……戦人のことを二度と、私の子供じゃないみたいなことを言うな。……お前は、… …母なんだから。……頼む。」
Rudolf: ...about Battler... never again say something like he’s not my child. You are... his mother after all. ...please.

「…………………。……いいわ、約束してあげる。」
Kyrie: ...fine, I will promise for you.

銃弾を込めながら、霧江は肩を竦めて答える。
Narration: While loading bullets, Kyrie shrugged her shoulders and answered.

[kamuinoyume]

Originally Posted by Ssol

She didn't know that Battler was her son.

I will edit this post with the episode 7 quotes when I get to my computer at home.

Thank you for answering