Psycho-Pass - Episode 22 [END] Discussion / Poll

[Mad Pierrot]

Had Akane captured Makishima nothing would have changed within the Sybil System right?

Also the fact Kogami is leaving Japan could be a seal there might not be sequels.

[Shadow5YA]

Like I said before, I'm not rash enough to expect Akane to take down Sybil, but I expected her get something done. If she couldn't take down Makishima, she could have stopped Kogami at the very least.

That retired forensics professor mentioned the superiority behind a person who knew more than he/she let on. With Akane knowing about the truth, she should at least get some payoff for her efforts. As it is now, she didn't really do anything in the finale except witness events unfold. What's the point of poking holes on Sybil's logic and convincing it to make all those exceptions when Akane didn't get to use any of it in the end?


I didn't mind Gino demoting to an Enforcer like his father, Masaoka himself dying, or the private school girl from Rikako's case wanting to be a detective, but seeing Akane's character develop with no results coming out of it just doesn't sit right with me.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Her mouth says that. Her actions say "what are your orders, my master?".

Besides, I didn't say she bowed to them. I said she bowed to "their self-serving logic". By which I mean, despite everything, she's going to keep upholding the system. And if someone wants to topple it, she can be counted on a point a Dominator at them and pull the trigger.

It kind of reminds of the original Mobile Suit Gundam. The pilots are fighting for the Earth Federation, even though they're corrupt and they disagree with them, and think that the other solutions (Like those provided by Zeon and char), are way too extreme. Regardless of what is going on, their society depends on Sibyl and people are living peaceful lives.

Yes, she is going to obey Sibyl for now, but if she sees an opportunity for change you can bet she will pursuit it. Change in a meaningful way that is (Not destroying an entire society in the process).

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

It kind of reminds of the original Mobile Suit Gundam. The pilots are fighting for the Earth Federation, even though they're corrupt and they disagree with them, and think that the other solutions (Like those provided by Zeon and char), are way too extreme. Regardless of what is going on, their society depends on Sibyl and people are living peaceful lives.

Yes, she is going to obey Sibyl for now, but if she sees an opportunity for change you can bet she will pursuit it. Change in a meaningful way that is (Not destroying an entire society in the process).

The more she waits, the harder it'll be. Both to take down Sibyl at all, and to deal with the aftermath.

There will never be a better opportunity than when she was in that room with Sibyl. Would cutting the power right there and then have caused societal upheaval, chaos and death? Sure. But less of it than when and if they decide to pull the plug ten or twenty years from now.

As it is, their only hope is China getting imperialistic and conquering them - as if that could be termed a "solution".

Or heck, maybe it's not so bad that they stay under Sibyl's heel - but don't point at Akane as a beacon of hope or a rebel. She's just a cog in the machine. Better oiled than most.

[mechalord]

Originally Posted by amaterasu4

Had Akane captured Makishima nothing would have changed within the Sybil System right?

Also the fact Kogami is leaving Japan could be a seal there might not be sequels.

The dude behind this show appears to be super political.

The second season may be about a war on terror or something. Shogo's riot changed Japan. Will Shogo's surviving followers make him a martyr? He probably had help with his final plan and likely planned his own death at the hands of Kogami.

The Son's of Shogo? Shogo's crimes are ignored by those who follow him, after his death... the true nature of the Sybil system is revealed to the public by hackers. They turn a sociopathic enabler of serial killers into an icon, a martyr. Shogo's successor/successors take up his cause, to bring terror to Japan once again.

At the same time, Rina could have her own rebellion going on.


What will Kogami do overseas?
- become an activist? Become an international celebrity, asking for foreign intervention in Japan?
- become a legendary mercenary that returns to Japan as a terrorist or rebel leader?
- Rina's foreign partner? Rina leads the rebellion against Sybil in Japan, Kogami sends the weapons and volunteers?

[JiCi]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But that kind of criticism is only valid if you assume they're a couple. If you assume there's a story behind their sex acts.

But from what was shown, there's nothing beyond physical attraction and some limited friendliness. Their relationship, if you want to call it that, was shallow, simple, and of little consequence to the plot and to them. So why should there be more screentime? Why should the writers get fancy with it?

I don't think there is a necessity to add more screentime for Shion's and Yayoi's relationship. I do not assume that there's any kind of story with them either. However, I would say that they could have been one, without it being distracting from the series' main plot. Their relationship could have been better developped, because they seem to have been left aside many times during the series.

You have said it yourself: it's shallow... that's usually a bad thing when it's shallow IMO. Even if they are just sex friends, no need to make such a relationship shallow without being too deep...

(Ok, that can come out as awkward...)

I have nothing against their relationship, except that it wasn't developped to an adequate level, compared to the other characters'. It was only briefly shown at the very end of the series, when to me, it could have been shown in the middle.

Like I said, it's all about the presentation. Sure, it's not important or valuable to the series whatsoever, but there's no shame at presenting it in a better way.

[Dengar]

I'm just interested though. Those who keep calling for Akane to "fight the system", how on earth do you expect her to not get shot by a dominator for having a high CC?

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The more she waits, the harder it'll be. Both to take down Sibyl at all, and to deal with the aftermath.

There will never be a better opportunity than when she was in that room with Sibyl. Would cutting the power right there and then have caused societal upheaval, chaos and death? Sure. But less of it than when and if they decide to pull the plug ten or twenty years from now.

As it is, their only hope is China getting imperialistic and conquering them - as if that could be termed a "solution".

Or heck, maybe it's not so bad that they stay under Sibyl's heel - but don't point at Akane as a beacon of hope or a rebel. She's just a cog in the machine. Better oiled than most.

I don't follow. Destroying Sibyl is to destroy what is essentially a peaceful society. There is no sane reason to topple society under Sibyl as it is. Without a more peaceful solution, the benefits do not outweigh the costs. As a result, there was no opportunity in that room. For Akane, and I believe any sane person, throwing their entire society into chaos is just plain stupid and selfish.

Akane is not a revolutionary, but there is no staying she cannot promote change. She simply believes that she must work within the society to do it, and not be like Makishima. Makishima was insane, no matter how noble you saw his goal of returning free will to people. He wanted to create death and destruction for his "revolution," and Akane is definitely not going to be someone like that.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I don't follow. Destroying Sibyl is to destroy what is essentially a peaceful society. There is no sane reason to topple society under Sibyl as it is. Without a more peaceful solution, the benefits do not outweigh the costs. As a result, there was no opportunity in that room. For Akane, and I believe any sane person, throwing their entire society into chaos is just plain stupid and selfish.

Akane is not a revolutionary, but there is no staying she cannot promote change. She simply believes that she must work within the society to do it, and not be like Makishima. Makishima was insane, no matter how noble you saw his goal of returning free will to people. He wanted to create death and destruction for his "revolution," and Akane is definitely not going to be someone like that.

Makishima was just a nutjob playing sick games.

But my point is, it's too late to hope to get rid of Sibyl without a period of anarchy and countless deaths. "Working within the system" just means strengthening Sibyl's grip on society and making it more necessary. It's not like its goal actually is the betterment of society.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I don't follow. Destroying Sibyl is to destroy what is essentially a peaceful society.

The society in Orwell's 1984 is "peaceful", generally speaking. Does that mean that the only just way of destroying such a society is to instantly replace it with another peaceful one? If so, then you're basically saying that a horribly corrupt and freedom-crushing society should never be opposed, because practically speaking, you will not displace it without at least a little bit of chaos and anarchy.

There is no sane reason to topple society under Sibyl as it is. Without a more peaceful solution, the benefits do not outweigh the costs.

Balderdash. There are perfectly sane reasons for topping Sibyl as it is. You honestly think a person has to be insane to choose to topple Sibyl? So would you side against any messy revolution against any peaceful society?

As a result, there was no opportunity in that room. For Akane, and I believe any sane person, throwing their entire society into chaos is just plain stupid and selfish.

I wonder where America would be today if everybody agreed with your sentiments back in the 50s through 70s. Would the Civil Rights movement had occurred? Would the Vietnam war had been effectively protested?

These were messy things that threw American society into a fair degree of chaos.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Makishima was just a nutjob playing sick games.

But my point is, it's too late to hope to get rid of Sibyl without a period of anarchy and countless deaths. "Working within the system" just means strengthening Sibyl's grip on society and making it more necessary. It's not like its goal actually is the betterment of society.

Yes, but what is the goal here? It's meaningless to cause a period of anarchy without an actual goal in mind. Otherwise, not only might people not achieve anything of note, they could end up in an even worse position.

Akane doesn't have a solution right now because it's a very difficult problem. One cannot argue that the average citizen is not more safe or faces less difficulties in Sibyl than in our society. Everything is easy, people do what they're good at, and pretty much everything is provided for them. Yes, this may make life more "boring," as Makishima put it, but it's more safe and peaceful overall. Sure, the goal might be to give free will reign, but how do they transition out of this society of dependence to one where they now take charge of their own lives? The riots showed that obviously things would be very, very bad if the system suddenly broke down. It would be an utter disaster to go away from Sibyl like that.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The society in Orwell's 1984 is "peaceful", generally speaking. Does that mean that the only just way of destroying such a society is to instantly replace it with another peaceful one? If so, then you're basically saying that a horribly corrupt and freedom-crushing society should never be opposed, because practically speaking, you will not displace it without at least a little bit of chaos and anarchy.

My point is that anyone who is going to topple the government better have plans to make a better society than what currently exists. If Akane in that room, right there and then, turned off Sibyl then pure chaos would erupt. There is no plan, nothing. It's leaving people to their own devices and this would lead to a situation where even more people are going to suffer than what current society under Sibyl is like (Basically only the people who get put away for their high PP ratings). Society could become even worse than what what we here in the show.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Balderdash. There are perfectly sane reasons for topping Sibyl as it is. You honestly think a person has to be insane to choose to topple Sibyl? So would you side against any messy revolution against any peaceful society?

I wonder where America would be today if everybody agreed with your sentiments back in the 50s through 70s. Would the Civil Rights movement had occurred? Would the Vietnam war had been effectively protested?

These were messy things that threw American society into a fair degree of chaos.

Each of these movements had a clear goal in mind. Akane toppling Sibyl without a clear goal is catastrophic. What is the reason they should get rid of Sibyl? Free will? How do both provide a society that allows everybody to express themselves, yet makes sure society is peaceful at the same time? How authoritarian do we want our government?

[Dengar]

There really is only so much a single person can do. She made the correct choice for the time being.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I wonder where America would be today if everybody agreed with your sentiments back in the 50s through 70s. Would the Civil Rights movement had occurred? Would the Vietnam war had been effectively protested?

These were messy things that threw American society into a fair degree of chaos.

What happened in the US in the 50s and 70s is of a different scale to what would happen if Sibyl were to be toppled. The latter is like Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. Pardon the political comparisons, but I think they are quite relevant in discussing this series.

Consider the three where regimes have been toppled and people are trying to rebuild a country. Speak to anyone who has been involved in these efforts (and I have have been able to do that within the last few weeks/months), and it's evident that things have not gone smoothly. Granted, these are arguably early days for the rebuilding effort, compared to say the French and Russian revolutions. However, will it end up working? Not without a great struggle for many many years - the point previously made is quite valid: the people were not ready and the effect has been far greater chaos than what happened in the US in the 50s and 70s.

Then we have Syria. Assad is still there, and a lot of people have long criticised Russia and China for preventing more definitive international action. However, when I listened to and read what what Syrian intellectuals (and activists) had to say about it a year ago, I was surprised at the time to find them saying that a Western intervention would be counterproductive at the time. They might have changed their stance by now (though I wouldn't count on it), but my contention is that people who really understand the situation within a country / state are better placed to make a judgement on what overturning a system would do, and whether such an upheaval is possible at a particular point in time.

Akane is in such a position, and I would say that she has made the right judgement at this time. Psycho-Pass did show us what would happen in this society is Sibyl suddenly stopped working: chaos. As Reckoner has observed, no one is ready with another system to replace Sibyl's place in society: and even if one has been conceived, people are not ready to implement it. Destroy the current system too early, and the possibility of regaining a peaceful, orderly society plummets.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Yes, but what is the goal here? It's meaningless to cause a period of anarchy without an actual goal in mind. Otherwise, not only might people not achieve anything of note, they could end up in an even worse position.

Akane doesn't have a solution right now because it's a very difficult problem. One cannot argue that the average citizen is not more safe or faces less difficulties in Sibyl than in our society. Everything is easy, people do what they're good at, and pretty much everything is provided for them. Yes, this may make life more "boring," as Makishima put it, but it's more safe and peaceful overall. Sure, the goal might be to give free will reign, but how do they transition out of this society of dependence to one where they now take charge of their own lives? The riots showed that obviously things would be very, very bad if the system suddenly broke down. It would be an utter disaster to go away from Sibyl like that.

Sometimes, when things are bad enough, better the devil you don't know than the one you do. The goal of destroying the brains is to destroy the brains. The hope is that when the dust settles the Japanese will have enough oversight over their own government that it'll be obligated to at least pay lip service to the common good and to the ideals of self-improvement. That reform from within will be possible without needing another bloody revolution.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Sometimes, when things are bad enough, better the devil you don't know than the one you do. The goal of destroying the brains is to destroy the brains. The hope is that when the dust settles the Japanese will have enough oversight over their own government that it'll be obligated to at least pay lip service to the common good and to the ideals of self-improvement. That reform from within will be possible without needing another bloody revolution.

I would think maybe that would be an option if it wasn't just Akane by herself.


Besides, the devil you know brings with it less risk.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's very, very easy for Akane to become part of the problem instead of part of the solution.

I think I'd have more respect for Akane if she handed in her resignation, and decided to pursue a career where she could influence people to think more critically about Sibyl (teaching, say).

While I agree Akane is fairly useless right now, time is simply not right for any (r)evolution to occur, as I've said a couple of pages back. People of Sibyl are sheep and dependent on it. Why they're so dependent on it is because they have a special relationship to it. They have to obey, else they get punished. It's like reading the Bible and upholding its laws, else God comes down and smacks you with a trout. Except this time it's a Dominator.

Sibyl quite literally decides who lives and who dies, and so it's natural for people to have a strong relationship to it, just like humans hold a very complex relationship with the concept of death. The whole system functions as an ideology to people, just like the Bible or Quran do to people of faith. As such it is irreplaceable to Akane's generation of people. Any immediate attempt is futile because society isn't even thinking about abandoning Sibyl. Perhaps Makishima's ploy would've shaken the foundation for a little bit, but older generations who have been fully indoctrined in Sibyl's way wouldn't budge, and the younger generations, perhaps those who felt it's unfair how some people receive better blessings from Sibyl than them, are too few in numbers. It would be idiotic for Akane to assist such people who are clearly out of touch with reality, it being it can't be done with the current support they have.

Truth alone isn't enough to sway emotion towards your cause. What Sibyl people need is a different understanding of Sibyl's supposed benefits. Remember, they think differently from you and me, they embraced Sibyl by themselves. The propaganda speaks for itself: Sibyl has created the most prosperous and peaceful society in the world. Even if Sibyl were to be completely truthful with its people about the methodology of choosing criminally asymptomatic people and disposing of those that threaten the system, their plea basically boils down to them giving the people the best of all possible worlds, as many posters have attempted to argue in previous threads. From their perspective, it's a very hard argument to topple because their values are completely different from ours.

[Sheba]

French Revolution and its aftereffects shows that things are not that simple. Remember that after 1789, they had gone through the Terreur, the First Empire, the Restoration of Monarchy, another Revolution, a Second Republic, followed by a Second Empire, then a third Republic, WWII, Fourth Republic and now thanks to De Gaulle, France is finally stable. And that's just a rough picture.

So yeah, revolutions are not easy. Especially for countries that have a long history behind them. And in the context of Psycho Pass, Sibyl is as old as half a century.

As for Akane, she is just a little cog in the machine, she is the most well adjusted individual of the cast and she unfortunatey don't have the charisma to start an underground resistance movement. So all she can do for now is to provide a little guidance to people who work with her.

[Kirarakim]

I don't really care that Akane didn't try to completely destroy the system. I think that would have been Makishima's answer not hers. But in the end she came up with no answer at all, just to sit back and wait for someone else to fix it.

Even worse is the series itself makes us doubt Akane words because it leaves sybil laughing at her. Really is it a 1984 ending or a hopeful ending? You can't have both, but that is what I feel we got here.

Of course some people might like the open to interpretation type ending but in this case it just feels lackluster to me.

I didn't think either Makishima or Kougami's choices were the right one, but at least they were choices. Akane's decision doesn't change anything, not for the world and not for the story. Going back to the beginning sums things up nicely but for me it's not in a good way.

[kitten320]

Well there isn't much she can do now.

All she can do is think and try to come up with a solution.
There is no way they could resolve it all in one episode.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Sheba

French Revolution and its aftereffects shows that things are not that simple. Remember that after 1789, they had gone through the Terreur, the First Empire, the Restoration of Monarchy, another Revolution, a Second Republic, followed by a Second Empire, then a third Republic, WWII, Fourth Republic and now thanks to De Gaulle, France is finally stable. And that's just a rough picture.

WWII may have killed it, but the Third lasted 70 years. The Fifth isn't there yet.

But let's say it takes decades or centuries for Japan to stabilize. Is it going to take less time if you wait?

So yeah, revolutions are not easy. Especially for countries that have a long history behind them. And in the context of Psycho Pass, Sibyl is as old as half a century.

Masaoka was an adult before the advent of Sibyl, so it can't be that old. A quarter of a century, maybe?