Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Moczo]

Everything Nasu writes is long. If there were a prize for being able to take the most possible words to say something...

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Haak

Dear God these Bad Endings are loooooooong. I was actually finally relieved when Ilya killed me.

That's why I sometimes was unsure if I made the right choice or not. So much shit would hit the fan, and so the situation would get so bad, I thought for sure I chose the wrong one.

[Haak]

That doesn't sound nice. The only reason I knew that one was an actual Bad Ending is because I accidently stumbled across a hint not to ignore Tohsaka early on. To be honest the Bad Ending lasted so long I almost convinced there wasn't gonna be a Bad Ending until I checked a walkthrough to make sure.

Hmm...I'll still try and get through it without a walkthrough, but honestly I don't like my chances. I got this Bad Ending because I didn't meet Ilya. How the holy hell am I supposed to figure that from a dilemna about Tohsaka? Honestly sometimes it really does feel as if Shirou survives purely through dumb luck. What a change. Now I have to avoid the Bad Endings instead of doing them on purpose...

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Haak

That doesn't sound nice. The only reason I knew that one was an actual Bad Ending is because I accidently stumbled across a hint not to ignore Tohsaka early on. To be honest the Bad Ending lasted so long I almost convinced there wasn't gonna be a Bad Ending until I checked a walkthrough to make sure.

Well, I learned that in Fate. Like when you first met Giglamesh. I thought for sure all hell was going to break loose, lol.

Hmm...I'll still try and get through it without a walkthrough, but honestly I don't like my chances. I got this Bad Ending because I didn't meet Ilya. How the holy hell am I supposed to figure that from a dilemna about Tohsaka? Honestly sometimes it really does feel as if Shirou survives purely through dumb luck. What a change. Now I have to avoid the Bad Endings instead of doing them on purpose...

It's more fun without it, so don't use a flowchart or walkthrough. Just save at every single choice.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Yeah, there is a good amount of denseness with Saber and Shirou.

Isn't Shirou winding Rin up there? He knows that she doesn't want to say it, so he's teasing her by feigning ignorance....

Originally Posted by Haak

That doesn't sound nice. The only reason I knew that one was an actual Bad Ending is because I accidently stumbled across a hint not to ignore Tohsaka early on. To be honest the Bad Ending lasted so long I almost convinced there wasn't gonna be a Bad Ending until I checked a walkthrough to make sure.

Well, some of the bad endings are verydelayed. The relationship-based ones (such as the Ilya one you stumbled across) are worst, because it's possible (in some cases) to fail those a good five days before you get the actual bad end.

Hmm...I'll still try and get through it without a walkthrough, but honestly I don't like my chances.

Save at every choice and, if you're stuck, then check the walkthrough. Personally, I checked every choice after I'd made it, and if I got a relationship bad end (I think I missed them all...), then I would have seen where it branched off and gone back to correct it.

I got this Bad Ending because I didn't meet Ilya. How the holy hell am I supposed to figure that from a dilemna about Tohsaka?

You're not, really. But, still, refusing to meet Rin wasn't the most sensible option....

Honestly sometimes it really does feel as if Shirou survives purely through dumb luck.

So somewhat like real-life, then? No matter how good you are, you are always reliant on luck to a certain extent.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

It's more fun without it, so don't use a flowchart or walkthrough. Just save at every single choice.

That's mostly what I did during my first time playing through; granted, I managed to avoid a lot of the Bad Ends too because I was spoiled by the manga and the anime, and the rest of the time I just made a decision based off my gut instinct. I still find it ironic that I didn't start building up on Bad End counts until I started playing HF.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

You're not, really. But, still, refusing to meet Rin wasn't the most sensible option...

True. I just did that one on purpose. I hope the others won't be harder.

So somewhat like real-life, then? No matter how good you are, you are always reliant on luck to a certain extent.

Yeah but this is a pretty blatant case.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

That's mostly what I did during my first time playing through; granted, I managed to avoid a lot of the Bad Ends too because I was spoiled by the manga and the anime, and the rest of the time I just made a decision based off my gut instinct. I still find it ironic that I didn't start building up on Bad End counts until I started playing HF.

Well, if you were spoilered by the manga and anime, then it's not really that surprising that you missed a lot of the Fate and UBW bad endings. Also, HF is the route where bad endings are, in general, the easiest to come by.

[RadiantBeam]

Random question time!

Spoiler for UBW Bad End:

So, I was replaying through some of my favorite scenes in UBW, when somewhere along the way I must have chosen a bad option or something, because instead of getting a choice between searching for Rin and going to the church (like I usually do), I went straight to the church and was killed by Caster.

I played back through it again to see if it would happen again, but I must have gotten it right this time because I got the usual choice between Rin and the church. It's not a big thing, but now I'm curious. Where'd I mess up?

[Cherry_Lover]

Most likely you didn't have enough Rin points. That particular bad end functions as the Rin relationship check bad end, so if you have too few Rin points it won't give you the option of searching for Rin, presumably because Shirou doesn't care enough about her to bother, or something like that. It's a bit of a bastard, really, because there's no way in hell that you could work that out from looking at it.

[RadiantBeam]

Damn, how the hell did I manage that one? I thought I made all the same choices I did on my first time playing through... I wonder if I missed something while I was skipping through certain scenes.

[Flinch]

It's the same with all eroge novels; if you want to guarantee a good ending with a character, spend all possible moments with them. Contrary to popular belief, that does not work in real life.

[Haak]

It kind of ruins the story somewhat if it's based on such logic, imo. I can't help but wonder how much better it would've been if it were a Light Novel series instead.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Flinch

It's the same with all eroge novels; if you want to guarantee a good ending with a character, spend all possible moments with them. Contrary to popular belief, that does not work in real life.

Except in HF, there is a range you have to meet otherwise you get a Bad End. But that's part of the fun!

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Flinch

It's the same with all eroge novels; if you want to guarantee a good ending with a character, spend all possible moments with them. Contrary to popular belief, that does not work in real life.

I think it's not so much "spend all possible moments with them" as it is "be nice to them". Although, remember that Shirou's relationship with the girls (well, Rin and Saber, anyway) is starting from virtually nothing, so spending time with them is the only way that he can get to know them.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I think it's not so much "spend all possible moments with them" as it is "be nice to them". Although, remember that Shirou's relationship with the girls (well, Rin and Saber, anyway) is starting from virtually nothing, so spending time with them is the only way that he can get to know them.

I think it's supposed to be a mix of both, honestly. Shirou has to both spend time with the girls to get the relationship started, and then be nice to them to keep it going so that nothing bad happens while playing. Or, well, at least it works that way for Rin and Saber; with Sakura I found it was less a case of "spending time with her" and more of "being nice to her" to keep her from killing me.

[Haak]

Ugh. My Live Blog of Heaven's Feel as got a bit long and I've failed to come up with enough jokes about it so to avoid making it tl:dr, I'll just post my opinion of it so far. I just finished the Eleventh day.

Spoiler for space:

So basically it starts out similar to Fate but with more hints to what Sakura is like and Zoken’s introduction. Apparently Sakura doesn’t like Tohsaka very much. I already knew why thanks to the anime (or atleast I thought I did). She also explains why she fell in love with Shirou. Kinda touching and it was nice to see Shirou get the hint and realise she was talking and him even if he didn’t remember that event. I’ve seen the conversations before where the guy doesn’t get the hint. Kotomine also explains the Einzberg’s history and Kiritsugu’s involvement with them. Hmmm, so that’s why Ilya had such an interest in Shirou from the beginning. Also Shirou does NOT form an alliance with Tohsaka for reasons I’m not entirely sure why. Basically he didn’t want to be dragged into fighting Ilya because he doesn’t want to fight a little girl. This, bearing in mind, is the same little girl that commanded a giant monster and blew half his innards away. Way to use that head of yours, Shirou. I could understand if Shirou rationalised the whole thing by taking into consideration how surprised and guilty Ilya looked when Berserker bashed him, and come to the conclusion that Ilya reconsidering her view of the son of the guy who betrayed her family. But the thought never even crosses his mind!

So then Shirou and Saber decide to go master hunting (So they’re even more proactive in this route. A welcome change) and come across Bastard Shinji ordering Rider to suck an innocent woman dry. Honestly wouldn’t there be other civilians around to see this? Anyway, Saber makes surprisingly short work of Rider and Shinji makes an ass of himself, so Zoken has to save his Bastard ass. Then Shirou predictably believes Zoken when he says that Sakura doesn’t know about the war. Oh come on, Shirou. Did you not get the hint when Sakura expressed too much concern on that bruise on your hand that later become your command seals? Put two and two together.

Anyway, Shirou worried that Shinji might hurt Sakura, asks Tohsaka for advice and decides he needs to get Sakura to stay at his house, and then they decide to cooperate. Then he meets Ilya and Ilya promptly states that it was her mission to kill him because of Kiritsugu. Well Shirou manages to get Sakura to stay, but then she collapses after having a bath. Honestly, for a second I was actually worried myself.

Anyway, Shirou and Saber go after Caster (even though Tohsaka warned him not to)....and then things start getting REALLY creepy. Assassin gets killed by something very creepy. Caster looks at Kuzuki’s corpse with a creepy face. And the interlude afterwards was CREEPY AS FUCK.

Woah, wait a minute. There's a muslim, a MUSLIM in this show?!?!?! Oh hell I don't even care if he's a bad guy, this is awesome.

...and then Shirou randomly imagines having sex with Tohsaka. Well...that was... er...something. Anyway, Taiga suggests Sakura gave Shirou her cold and considering Sakura’s behaviour afterwards, she’s probably closer to the truth than she realises. Then Sakura is interested in knowing who was in Shirou’s dream. Considering I’ve already seen Tsukihime, I kinda have a feeling I know why he had that dream. And I also figured at this point that Sakura must’ve had something to do with that creepy thing that went “IT’S NOT ENOUGH” after Caster was killed. The hints are there. It’s fairly easy to figure out.

Afterwards Shirou decides to meet up with Ilya without bringing Saber. Honestly people tell me that Shirou acts smarter in Heaven’s Feel but I’m not seeing it. Anyway, Ilya gives Shirou the location of her house...well well, looks like Shirou isn’t the only dense person. Anyway, afterwards, Bastard Shinji barges in punches Sakura and we’re given the option of whether or not to punch Shinji...oh it was really tempting but I picked the restrain option since I figured that was the better one. Then Bastard Shinji says Sakura has to do something for him. Then the Bastard gets control of Rider again. Coincidence?!?! I think not!

Well anyway Shirou then decides to stay in for her sake, which leads to more yet more hints about her life (Okay, I get it now). Then Lancer gets tentacle raped by that creepy thing again, and Shirou ditches Sakura to consult with Rin. Well I can’t balme Shirou but I still felt kinda bad for Sakura. Then Shirou discovers that Kotomine really likes tofu...oooooooookaaaaay, not entirely sure what to make of that, but Kotomine does warn Shirou about Zoken. Then Ilya assaults Shirou and they go shopping together. It was really kinda sweet and sad in the end.

And then Shirou admits to himself that he liked Sakura romantically. That...was a bit of a surprise. It took absurdly extreme measures for Shirou to realise such things in the previous routes. Then Shirou and Saber encounter a confrontation between Archer and Rin and Zoken. Then suddenly that creepy ass thing from before attacks and sends Shirou to a similar hell he had to endure when Kotomine hit him with the Holy Grail taint. Somehow Shirou survives and Sakura is really upset with Saber. Then Zoken returns in a rather gruesome manner and explains his powers and reasons to Assassin.

Later Tohsaka decides to go to Shinji’s house and advise Shirou to investigate an area. Tohsaka gives an awesome Reason You Suck Speech to Bastard Shinji, but unfortunately all it does is make him more determined to kill Shirou. Then Shirou and Saber blatantly walk into a trap (*sigh* I’ve been playing this game for so long now and it’s really starting to feel like an everyday occurrence. Well it’s not like they could’ve seen it coming.), and Assassin takes out Saber with the help of a black thing. Wooaaaah, this is getting interesting. Then Rider of all people saves Shirou from Zoken. That definitely doesn’t sound like Shinji. Then later we see Sakura becoming a yandere.

Then Shirou gets Tohsaka’s help and Bastard Shinji kidnaps Sakura. Eventually it’s revealed Sakura was Riders real Master but Bastard Shinji does something to Sakura and for some reason Archer has to kill her. In the end Shirou takes a blow for Tohsaka and he’s taken to the church along with Sakura where it’s revealed she used to be Tohsaka’s sister and now has a painful Crest Worm in her telling her to kill or die (and it kills her even if she DOES fight), thanks to Zoken. Wow, as if that wasn’t messed up already, she was repeatedly raped. Naturally, Shirou reaches a real dilemma and he just doesn’t know what to do. And Ilya helps him make a decision. Okay, I take back what I said about Shirou being an idiot for believing Zoken when he said Sakura wasn’t involved and I also take back what I said about his decision to hang out with Ilya. This was touching. And Shirou makes the decision to discard everything he’s ever believed in for Sakura’s sake. This is supposed to be powerful stuff but for some reason it didn’t hit me that hard. It’s supposed to mean a lot since we learn in UBW just how much Shirou’s dream means to him but it just doesn’t seem like it means a lot to him here. I guess they just didn’t want to repeat themselves but I still feel like it kinda lessens the impact. He goes against Tohsaka and then has sex with Sakura (You know the whole “Crest Worm makes me horny” explanation was entirely unnecessary). It’s really incredible how they can still be nervous around each other the very next day.

Well then things fuck up even more when Shirou goes to Ilya for help (Whoa, Déjà vu). He meets Tohsaka but they hear Berserker fighting someone and run to see that h-OH SHIT IT’S SABER AND SHE’S GONE TO THE DARK SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE!!!11! (Why is it that when someone becomes evil they start wearing black? Is it supposed to be some sort of fashion statement?) Beserker gets slurped, Shirou loses and arm and Archer takes a fatal blow for Tohsaka prompting him to give his left arm to Shirou before he dies (Hopefully he’ll be back as an awesome counterforce, though). So for whatever reason the black tentacle monster doesn’t massacre everyone (I suppose it helps if you’re sleeping with her), and they manage to get away. For some reason both Ilya and Tohsaka are ridiculously okay with losing their respective servants even though we know how much they meant to them. Angst? What Angst? (well I suppose they have to be, otherwise this story would be more fucked up than it already is).

Then some stuff happens. It’s an unwelcome change of pace to be honest but never mind. Basically we learn more about what the girls think of each other, Shirou has trouble with his new arm, and the black monster claims new victims. A kind of breather episode I guess.

It’s okay so far. Unlike the other routes I don’t really have much to complain but to be honest nothing has actually genuinely caught my interest like it did in UBW (which might explain my inability to make jokes). For some reason I just don’t feel that much sympathy for Sakura. I’m not entirely sure why. Maybe it’s because they keep pounding us over the head of just how messed up she is constantly, but I’m just stabbing in the dark here. It’s just not clicked with me yet. Hopefully it will as I go along but so far I’d rate it as 7/10.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Haak

It kind of ruins the story somewhat if it's based on such logic, imo. I can't help but wonder how much better it would've been if it were a Light Novel series instead.

Not much of a difference imo. Fate/zero had a different feel to it thanks to a different author writing the narrative. If F/SN were light novel, there is rather too much things to deal with, and it wouldn't accurately gauge Shirou's growth or show the many paths that could be taken. Also, using the three routes as separate mini-series wouldn't feel right to me.

For some reason I just don’t feel that much sympathy for Sakura. I’m not entirely sure why. Maybe it’s because they keep pounding us over the head of just how messed up she is constantly, but I’m just stabbing in the dark here. It’s just not clicked with me yet. Hopefully it will as I go along but so far I’d rate it as 7/10.

Different strokes for different folks really. I felt the same way a lot of the time about Saber and Rin and them being so committed to duty.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Haak

...and then Shirou randomly imagines having sex with Tohsaka. Well...that was... er...something.

Did you take a look at the eyes? That was Rider doing it with him. He thought it was a dream, but it wasn't.

I was raging so much by the 11th day.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Did you take a look at the eyes? That was Rider doing it with him. He thought it was a dream, but it wasn't.

I do wonder why Rider took Rin's form, though. Did Sakura (or Shinji) know that Shirou kind of sort of had a small crush on Rin in all three routes? Or did Rider just choose the most desirable girl in Shirou's school by chance?