Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 09 Discussion / Poll

[ACE2003]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Of course I wouldn't be happy, regardless of what the punishment is, really. I don't even like being yelled at. But if I screwed up, I can't exactly say "don't punish me, it'll make unhappy", can I?

For that matter, I wouldn't like it either if all around me, people screwed up and were never given incentive to not do it again, never taught to do better. Especially if I'm expected to put my life in their hands, as all of RF6's combat personnel is. In Teana's first screw up, Subaru could easily have died. Next time it may be herself, or Caro or Erio. Even if they don't see it, Nanoha and the others do.

Now, you seem to think of corporal punishment as taboo. Obviously, it's not so in the TSAB. If Teana doesn't like it, she can quit screwing up, or just plain quit, but in the meantime, it's part of what she signed up for.

You should expect punishment, verbal yes, but not physical. I hate to see that if you were in the military and the superior decided to punch you time and time again because you screwed up and you would be like well, I deserved it. They are the Superiors after all. What they say goes. Let them do whatever they want to me. If I mess up, I can expect all types of phsyical consequences.....I would be interested to read if the TSAB allows for corporal punishment, although I can't read it of course!

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by dkellis

An interesting exercise:

Try to find out if there are any regulations in the Real World modern-day militaries which allow an instructor (or superior) to physically strike a trainee (or subordinate) as punishment, when not in an actual combat situation.

http://www.milism.net/cp.htm
http://www.milism.net/s95cp.htm
http://www.archivist.f2s.com/cpa/institutions.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment
Google results

Some people really need to get clued up before they comment on this kind of thing. Yes, you people know who you are. Discipline of this nature is uncommon but not unheard of in the military, in martial arts practice, and similar; and certainly not frowned upon unless particularly brutal. The exercise of beating form and function into particularly wayward subordinates dates way way back to probably the first examples of military organisation.

[ACE2003]

Originally Posted by mdauben

The fact that you continue to insist on this incorrect assumption is the root of much of your misunderstanding. Supperior officiers have the power to use anything up to and including lethal force, depending on the situation. This isn't high school. This isn't a job down at the mall. You say you understand that, but you keep trying to apply the limitations of those situations to the totally different one of a military organization.


Not at all. There are situations where beating the snot out of a subordinate would be unacceptable and would land the officer in serious trouble. However, this has been said over and over again and you don't seem to accpet it, there are situations where a supperior officer is allowed to do just that. Isubordination, reckless endangerment, and ignoring direct orders are certainly three examples.


Can you point our a specific scene in the anime that shows this? I never saw anything to indicate that, and indeed the impression I got was that Vita thought Nanoho was being too easy with Teana.

Only thing was, despite your examples, the situation still didn't warrant for it. So you would be okay with getting punched I assume? "Because you're being a brat, you deserved to get punched in the face or perhaps kicked in the stomach or kneed in the face?" There's nothing in the military that allows the use of lethal force just because he or she is saying choice words and I'm pretty sure that there aren't in the TSAB.

As for Vita seeing signs of Tea being unhappy, I thought this was pretty evident throughout episodes 7 and 8 IMO. I guess more so that she has more communication skills than Nanoha does. Maybe I'll have to rewatch it and point it out.

[ACE2003]

Originally Posted by Icarus

http://www.milism.net/cp.htm
http://www.milism.net/s95cp.htm
http://www.archivist.f2s.com/cpa/institutions.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment
Google results

Some people really need to get clued up before they comment on this kind of thing. Yes, you people know who you are. Discipline of this nature is uncommon but not unheard of in the military, in martial arts practice, and similar; and certainly not frowned upon unless particularly brutal. The exercise of beating form and function into particularly wayward subordinates dates way way back to probably the first examples of military organisation.

Back in the day yes, but in today's setting....put your hand on the wrong trainee and the Superior may get the punishment that they were trying to inflict twofold. That's why it's frowned up in today's military. Although it may be a "love tap" or a not so brutal punch, it's still looked at as a no-no, especially in basic training where a Training Instructor has command over 40+ rookies in his flight. No matter how much they screw up or if the trainee says anything out of line, one thing is clear, the T.I. CAN NOT put his had on the troop or he will be kicked out and hit up with paper work A.S.A.P. Violence isn't always the answer there are ways of getting your point across without having to hit somebody to do so. It's a totally different military world, especially since 9/11, so Superiors have to be careful to not use lethal force, no matter what.

I think I've gone off-topic with this one...everything is coming at me from different angles.

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by Icarus

http://www.milism.net/cp.htm
http://www.milism.net/s95cp.htm
http://www.archivist.f2s.com/cpa/institutions.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment
Google results

Some people really need to get clued up before they comment on this kind of thing. Yes, you people know who you are. Discipline of this nature is uncommon but not unheard of in the military, in martial arts practice, and similar; and certainly not frowned upon unless particularly brutal. The exercise of beating form and function into particularly wayward subordinates dates way way back to probably the first examples of military organisation.

None of the links provided (that I can see, anyway) mention anything about official regulations allowing corporal punishment in modern-day militaries.

I'm not saying that there definitely is no such thing. I'm just saying that I haven't found any.

EDIT: Neither am I saying that the TSAB is following any modern-day military regulations. As I said, it's an "interesting exercise". It's not canon information.

[ACE2003]

In the end though, all is well. Although I didn't condone the methods used, it seemed to get the job done (well actually Shari did it, wonder why she took so long) Everyone has learned their lesson.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by dkellis

None of the links provided (that I can see, anyway) mention anything about official regulations allowing corporal punishment in modern-day militaries. I'm not saying that there definitely is no such thing. I'm just saying that I haven't found any.

Even if there are no official regulations stating that corporal punishment occurs, it still happens. Military corporal punishment throughout history has always occured behind closed doors and under direct supervision and consultation from medical officers, so that the injuries are not extreme enough to leave permanent damage, but painful enough to give a clear message to those who are punished that they shall not do [insert thing here] again.

Corporal punishment is a practice that has no laws governing it, outside of human rights. Even in the military, the highest ranking superiors acknowledge that something of this nature is often required in cases to instill discipline, form and function.

Not all punishment is governed by rules. Perhaps you (and others) should come to realise that.

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Not all punishment is governed by rules. Perhaps you (and others) should come to realise that.

I don't think I've ever said otherwise.

[mdauben]

Originally Posted by ACE2003

Only thing was, despite your examples, the situation still didn't warrant for it.

And that's where it all comes down to opinion, and mine is different than yours. I think it did. However, that is open to argument and I can accept that you think differently. It is on the factual issue of use of force that there is no room for opinion. It is a fact that in the right circumstances a real-world superior officer could legally do exactly what Nanoha and Signum did.

So you would be okay with getting punched I assume? "Because you're being a brat, you deserved to get punched in the face or perhaps kicked in the stomach or kneed in the face?"

Probably not, but what difference does that make? To to have put myself in the situation where it happened, I would say my judment on the issue would be questionable at best. Since I have been arguing in favor of the disiplinarly measures shown up to this point, as an outside observer without the my judgment clouded by emotional issues, I obviously would be "okay" with it.

There's nothing in the military that allows the use of lethal force just because he or she is saying choice words and I'm pretty sure that there aren't in the TSAB.

I've said it before, but you keep ignoring it or trying to twist my words. She was not hit for "expressing her opinion". She was hit by first Nanoha and then Signium for isubordination, reckless endangerment and disobeying a direct order in both actual combat and potentialy dangerous training situations while employing lethal weapons. Plus, I never said that that situation called for lethal force, either, I was just counting your seeming misconception that a superior officer is not allowed to use physical voilence against a subordinate. They are. You are just plain wrong about that.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by dkellis

I don't think I've ever said otherwise.

Your original post implied otherwise.
If I took it wrongly, or sound offensive in my replies, then I apologise.

However I stand by my original comments. Like it or not, it is a practice that still goes on today, rules or not, you just rarely hear of it. And not only that, it is quite often the only effective method that'll work when a simple yelling at doesn't work, especially in the case of repeat offenders. Not only does it send a direct message to those being punished, it also indirectly lets the other subordinates know that things will not be tolerated and proper discipline will be administered if insubordination continues. You'll be surprised at how people quickly fall in line if they see and fear the punishment.

[ACE2003]

Originally Posted by mdauben

And that's where it all comes down to opinion, and mine is different than yours. I think it did. However, that is open to argument and I can accept that you think differently. It is on the factual issue of use of force that there is no room for opinion. It is a fact that in the right circumstances a real-world superior officer could legally do exactly what Nanoha and Signum did.


Probably not, but what difference does that make? To to have put myself in the situation where it happened, I would say my judment on the issue would be questionable at best. Since I have been arguing in favor of the disiplinarly measures shown up to this point, as an outside observer without the my judgment clouded by emotional issues, I obviously would be "okay" with it.


I've said it before, but you keep ignoring it or trying to twist my words. She was not hit for "expressing her opinion". She was hit by first Nanoha and then Signium for isubordination, reckless endangerment and disobeying a direct order in both actual combat and potentialy dangerous training situations while employing lethal weapons. Plus, I never said that that situation called for lethal force, either, I was just counting your seeming misconception that a superior officer is not allowed to use physical voilence against a subordinate. They are. You are just plain wrong about that.

I'm not wrong. Trust me on this. In the end, we have different viewpoints and outlooks on the situation. But the situation worked itself out...luckly I might add.

[ACE2003]

Okay, about to go to work. Will address any arguments probably around 3 or 4 a.m. my time. I'm over in England right now. Until then, everyone play nice!

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by ACE2003

You should expect punishment, verbal yes, but not physical. I hate to see that if you were in the military and the superior decided to punch you time and time again because you screwed up and you would be like well, I deserved it. They are the Superiors after all. What they say goes. Let them do whatever they want to me. If I mess up, I can expect all types of phsyical consequences.....I would be interested to read if the TSAB allows for corporal punishment, although I can't read it of course!

If my mistakes were of the magnitude of Teana's, I'd expect anything from punishment detail up to and including a court martial. "Verbal punishment" doesn't begin to cover it.

And you're creating a false dilemma between "superiors can beat the crap out of the subordinates whenever they want" and "superiors can't ever use corporal punishment regardless of circumstances". The truth is, naturally, between the two: sometimes corporal punishment is warranted, necessary, and beneficial both to the unit as a whole and to the trainee herself. Exactly when that happens depends on several factors, including cultural ones.

And in this case: there are worse alternatives, and I can't really see better ones short of going back in time and use the power of hindsight to bear down on her harder after the hotel incident. Or maybe go all the way to her brother's death and prevent that...

[felix]

~ ACE2003

Could you please for the sake of being on this forum 3 years more then anyone here and for having the forum rules your are breaking are written in your native language please edit your damn posts instead of double, triple and quadruple posting like this.

You can always just left click quote and select open in new tab or something and copy/paste to your original message ~

As much as I love how this forum is just about to top Bleach in post count what you are doing is spamming pages ~

~ Icarus

Considering Hayate's team(s) are a mobile force which doesn't face an enemy army (in the real sence) and which job description is to prevent/investigate incidents and criminals ~ loosly guverned by military discipline and rules ~ is this its-military-practice argument even relevent? //retorical question

In other words if we strip the situation of the real-life-military rules are Nanoha's actions really that wrong ~

But this is redundand, the discussion seems to have turned from why was she wrong to:
"I Thee-Lyrical-Magical-Nanoha wouldn't have done that." or
"When/If I was in the army, my Lyrical-Magical-Nanoha didn't/did that."

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Cats

Considering Hayate's team(s) are a mobile force which doesn't face an enemy army (in the real sence) and which job description is to prevent/investigate incidents and criminals ~ loosly guverned by military discipline and rules ~ is this its-military-practice argument even relevent? //retorical question

Rhetorical question or not, bear in mind that the organisation Section 6 resides in is organised (almost) exactly like a real-world military, complete with ranks, subdivisions and so on. Even if Section 6's job description doesn't involve fighting real armies (although we can expect one or two to pop up soon), the way they train, the methodology and the influences in the organisation of both Section 6 and the TSAB as a whole do justify the argument of comparing real-world military practice to LOL ANIME military practice.

Then again, if someone flipped out and pointed a loaded rocket launcher at a superior in the real world, I don't think they'd be getting away with a lecture and a few bruises.

[felix]

The police has ranks so does the fire brigade ~ I think.
At least in the past or in some countries it does/did.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Rhetorical question or not, bear in mind that the organisation Section 6 resides in is organised (almost) exactly like a real-world military, complete with ranks, subdivisions and so on. Even if Section 6's job description doesn't involve fighting real armies (although we can expect one or two to pop up soon), the way they train, the methodology and the influences in the organisation of both Section 6 and the TSAB as a whole do justify the argument of comparing real-world military practice to LOL ANIME military practice.

While the system has strong ressemblances, the prupose of TSAB and various others elements remind me a lot of Organization Mithril, in FMP. (Mix of military, "heroes of justice" and mercenaries)
they use the bases of Military, but they are far from it.

again, the other problem with the comparaison between real military and TSAB is rather the characters and the lack of "casual" situations, which are not really possible to emulate here.

Then again, if someone flipped out and pointed a loaded rocket launcher at a superior in the real world, I don't think they'd be getting away with a lecture and a few bruises.

the comparaison is completely out of the whack.

[Meophist]

Although I(and a few others) have already mentioned this, the main reason for Signum's punch is not what Teana was saying. It was the time and place. There was an enemy nearby with unknown motives and Nanoha, Fate, and Vita were just about to depart to fight them. They really shouldn't be able to afford the time to argue with Teana then. Fortunally, the enemy was doing little more than just flying around, but the team couldn't be sure it will simply continue doing just that.

Teana's concerns were not life-threatening. The enemy potentially were. Which do you think deserves higher priority? Signum's punch was also a message to Nanoha to "just go already".

That said, Nanoha was also part of the problem. She shouldn't have allowed Teana to argue with her then, it was a waste of time. She was being too soft on them, and both Vita and Signum believed so too. It just never presented itself until the training exercise.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

again, the other problem with the comparaison between real military and TSAB is rather the characters and the lack of "casual" situations, which are not really possible to emulate here.

Of course. That's why I like the argument "LOL ANIME".

Originally Posted by Klashikari

the comparaison is completely out of the whack.

Oh? How so?
Are you saying Teana is right to point a loaded weapon at her superior in that situation?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Of course. That's why I like the argument "LOL ANIME".

that wasn't what i meant.
by my comment, i implied that characters behaviour are impossible to apply on reality. (the obvious example would be subaru)
if we have to compare in the HARDCORE way, everything is kinda irrelevant, considering the ages of the rookies and the weird training protocol. (sometimes it is hard military, sometimes, it sounds like a field trip)

once again : you will never see happy-go-lucky children, having as fancy gifts some big rail guns, and happily blasting the enemies. not to mention relying on 9 years old little girls, to catch an extremely dangerous culprit, while they have the ressources to do this by themselves, is completely out of question. (you will say : yeah, but this is magic. well, if we imagine that a kid is able to kill without remorse, and is an expert to use firearms at the said age, it would be still refused. (except some peculiar groups... right kashim? )

Oh? How so?
Are you saying Teana is right to point a loaded weapon at her superior in that situation?

your analogy implies that the fellow soldier got an extremely dangerous weapon, ready to create an horrible accident.

EP 8 : we don't know the scale of phantom bullet (power, area of effect, properties, letality, casting time). also, unlike rocket, which you can't defend against, until you are sheltered; magic can be blocked with an appropriate barrier or shield.
also, there were other possibility to disarm the said culprit : bind, flash move, faster retaliation (which nanoha used), a nullifying attack on the incoming spell.

reality is : except if you can snap out the culprit, either you are dead, or you shoot at the crazed soldier.


while both share the "disable the target first" option, in nanohaverse, things are much more convenient.
that would be the same for the "reckless blade attack" that teana performed. i saw here and there shocked people, weirdly claiming she was going to kill nanoha. while it would be true in reality (if she would be ever able to jump and attack like this, of course), there isn't anything you can do except parrying or dodging. once again, in nanohaverse : bind, improved speed, recoil, etc etc (heck, even bare hand parry). comparing an anime with reality requires to aknowledge the big differences in contexts.

so, direct analogy, without paying attention to the scales and differences in options isn't really working (but that's only my opinion.)