[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[CainSonozaki]

Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit!!! so number 1 is out

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Also why everyone keeps thinking that Yasu can't be the culprit if we know that she's in fact the heir of the whole Ushiromiya family and she's only pretending to be a servant to avoid creating turmoil in the family?

We don't "know" that. Yasu (and perhaps Bern, but perhaps not) believes that.

There's also the problem that she simply has no comprehensible motive that doesn't either rely on insanity or is simply absurd. Motive yes, sensible motive no. Yet her personality works perfectly for someone who would scapegoat herself for someone else's sake, especially out of internal conflict (and she has plenty of that).

Even if I accept every word of the Yasu story as true, I cannot reach the conclusion from it that she is a mastermind or even, to be honest, a killer. She comes across as playful and even a brutally effective prankster (to the point of perhaps causing humiliation), but not the sort of person who could rise to a level of maliciousness necessary to commit either act for which she has been accused (the bomb and/or the serial murders).

Ep7 goes out of its way to establish the essential nature of motive, then goes out of its way to give Yasu every means (the gold, the bomb, being a secret heir) and opportunity (Battler, the epitaph, the family conference, help from Genji, Kinzo's sanction, etc.), but no motive I can really fathom. There is, particularly, an incredibly important gap in time that seems like it has to be where the motive crystallizes... and no matter what I try to stick into that time span, I can't think of a single thing that would change her so much that she would become a killer. Make her hopeless and easily manipulated, sure. Make her fatalistic and not opposed to someone else's plan unless motivated to fight back, sure.

But the killer? I just can't see that in her. Even if her life wasn't as well-off as Lion's, he's about the nicest guy you could ever meet and she's only a little edgier in my book. I just don't buy it.

[Frisko]

Originally Posted by CainSonozaki

Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit!!! so number 1 is out

Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.

Also, at the beginning of Minagoroshi-hen (visual novel) it's stated that the environment that caused Keiichi, Rena, and Shion to commit murder was the actual culprit, perhaps the same logic applies here.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Frisko

Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.

That just means we can't use the red truth, not that the red truth isn't true.

However, it is possible the red there is contextualized.

That said, I don't actually believe the red text is "supernatural." It exists within the framework of the meta-narrative, which is the only place where it is used. No one on the game board of ep5 itself argues that Natsuhi must not be the culprit because "she just can't be." We don't get to hear what Battler says at the end, but if he intended to exonerate her, he would not have done so through any agency supernatural to the board.

[Leafsnail]

Natsuhi as the culprit runs into all kinds of flaws, though.

I mean -
Alibis for most of ep1.
Confirmed as a murder victim during the first twilight of ep2.
Has a stake pulled out of her in ep3.
Just as likely as anyone else in ep4, I guess.
Confirmed not to be the culprit in ep5.
Confirmed as a murder victim (if you believe Ballerika) in ep6.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

We don't "know" that. Yasu (and perhaps Bern, but perhaps not) believes that.

There's also the problem that she simply has no comprehensible motive that doesn't either rely on insanity or is simply absurd. Motive yes, sensible motive no. Yet her personality works perfectly for someone who would scapegoat herself for someone else's sake, especially out of internal conflict (and she has plenty of that).

Even if I accept every word of the Yasu story as true, I cannot reach the conclusion from it that she is a mastermind or even, to be honest, a killer. She comes across as playful and even a brutally effective prankster (to the point of perhaps causing humiliation), but not the sort of person who could rise to a level of maliciousness necessary to commit either act for which she has been accused (the bomb and/or the serial murders).

Ep7 goes out of its way to establish the essential nature of motive, then goes out of its way to give Yasu every means (the gold, the bomb, being a secret heir) and opportunity (Battler, the epitaph, the family conference, help from Genji, Kinzo's sanction, etc.), but no motive I can really fathom. There is, particularly, an incredibly important gap in time that seems like it has to be where the motive crystallizes... and no matter what I try to stick into that time span, I can't think of a single thing that would change her so much that she would become a killer. Make her hopeless and easily manipulated, sure. Make her fatalistic and not opposed to someone else's plan unless motivated to fight back, sure.

But the killer? I just can't see that in her. Even if her life wasn't as well-off as Lion's, he's about the nicest guy you could ever meet and she's only a little edgier in my book. I just don't buy it.

And okay it's not like I disagree with that, for the most part. But my point is not "Yasu is the culprit" rather "Yasu can't be excluded as the culprit because of the dine rules".

[CainSonozaki]

Originally Posted by Frisko

Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.

Also, at the beginning of Minagoroshi-hen (visual novel) it's stated that the environment that caused Keiichi, Rena, and Shion to commit murder was the actual culprit, perhaps the same logic applies here.

That in essence is saying Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit, however you have no evidence to prove it.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Frisko

Also, at the beginning of Minagoroshi-hen (visual novel) it's stated that the environment that caused Keiichi, Rena, and Shion to commit murder was the actual culprit, perhaps the same logic applies here.

The line you're talking about refers to the X Y Z rules themselves being what you have to suspicious of since the X Y Z rules are the environment in Higurashi. It's also stated that these people's murders are irrelevant to the actual culprit's actions since whether those people's victims are murdered or not they die in the end from a disaster anyway. That's because the murders caused by rule X are different in every world while the murders of Tomitake, Takano, and Rika always happen in every world making them separate crimes.

[Judoh]

As much as I would hate it what I just described above could mean that the person who has the bomb dropped in their lap is probably the culprit of Umineko.

Well screw me for thinking... I still hope there is something more interesting than just that in store for us.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Judoh

As much as I would hate it what I just described above could mean that the person who has the bomb dropped in their lap is probably the culprit of Umineko.

Well screw me for thinking... I still hope there is something more interesting than just that in store for us.

To be fair, the person with the bomb this time around would certainly have enough knowledge of the situation and whats going on to be the legitimate culprit of the various twilights themselves.

So it's not like it'd be a cop-out.

[Renall]

So this is sort of the layering as I am speculating it might pan out. Sorta.

Spoiler for Oh boy, charts!:

Spoiler for An explanation, of sorts...:

Okay, so the cheese gets folded over itself a lot, but it basically has the following layers:

• Reality: Us. We hope.
• "Reality": The first-order fiction. The "real world" of Umineko, a story written by Ryukishi07. Called Rokkenjima-Prime by some. The Rokkenjima Incident really happened here (maybe), Eva and probably Battler and possibly someone else survived it (maybe), and this is the world of an Ange, but not necessarily the one from ep4/ep6 (maybe).
• "Second-Order" Fiction: Fiction written in "reality." Presumably this includes the message bottles (presumed to be Legend and Turn), as well as subsequent works such as Banquet, Alliance, End, and Dawn. It's not clear if Requiem is a work or not, and if it is, what's in it.
• Meta-World: The world of thought, speculation, author-reader engagement, and theorizing. Despite being the main fictional drive of the series, this layer is actually very close to "reality." Many of the characters here are very close representations of real-world people living or dead (Beatrice/Maria/Battler/Ange) or higher-order concepts (Lambda/Bern).
• Magic World: Unclear placement. It could be existent in the second-order fiction, or maybe it isn't and it's "written" in by meta-characters to "explain" the stories. Honestly, it probably doesn't matter as it's all twisted up anyway.

Authorship is a major question here. On the meta-world stage, we are led to believe that ep1-4 are created by Beatrice, that ep5 is created by Lambdadelta, that ep6 is created by Battler, and that ep7 is created by Bernkastel.

However, we have an immediate problem, because we have different authorship claims on the "reality" layer. An individual calling herself "Ushiromiya Maria" created the message bottles believed to be Legend and Turn, a writer known as "Itouikukuro Reigonamu" appears to be the author of Banquet and Alliance, and "Hachijou Tohya" of End and Dawn. Complicating matters, we have a character calling herself Hachijou Tohya who claims to also be Itouikukuro Reigonamu, and laying claim to authorship of 3-6, though she can only prove to possess the manuscript of Dawn. As to who, if anyone, wrote Requiem, we are left utterly clueless, except that Battler is associated with an unopened book (which I would assume is not Requiem), and Claire associated with an open book (which may be?). Worst of all, there appear to be clear stylistic differences between Reigonamu and Tohya and between all existing author candidates and whoever wrote Requiem, assuming the Yasu stories are Requiem (and if they're not, who knows what the hell).

As if that weren't chaotic enough, people have speculated wildly on all sorts of identities of these "reality" authors:

• That Yasu/"Beatrice" is the author of the message bottles.
• That the message bottles were written by a survivor after the fact.
• That the message bottles were forged well after everyone thinks.
• That Tohya was a person who was on the island in 1986 and survived.
• That Reigonamu != Tohya.
• That the character "Tohya" is not Hachijou Tohya at all.
• That Reigonamu/Tohya are a group of authors.
• That Ange is Itouikukuro Reigonamu and Battler is Hachijou Tohya.
• That Beatrice is alive and wrote one of Chiru's episodes (possibly Dawn or Requiem).
• That the culprit is alive and wrote one of Chiru's episodes (probably End and/or Requiem).
• That Battler did not write any of the episodes, but will be the writer of ep8.

Exactly which of these, if any, is actually true would dramatically alter what is happening in the "present" of 1998. If 1998 is indeed the present, anyway, which we don't actually know for sure. Meta-world conversations suggest it could be later...

Why, it's all so simple! I hope someone can make sense of this, because I sure as heck can't!

[k//eternal]

Riffing on the previous notion that every EP is a fiction distinct from Rokkenjima-Prime, I think it's actually possible for the meta layers to loop. That is, among other things, Hachijo's layer is both above and below Featherine's.

Suppose that you wanted to write a story in which someone was reading about yourself (the author). From the vantage point of said reader, you're someone fictional in a book writing about the reader. While the latter scenario is more surreal, it conveniently occurs in a world full of magical stuff anyway, while the former can take place in a real world (you could do it right now if you wanted to).

It just happens that as the reader of Umineko both vantage points are available to us as "real", leading to the confusing event in EP6.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Riffing on the previous notion that every EP is a fiction distinct from Rokkenjima-Prime, I think it's actually possible for the meta layers to loop. That is, among other things, Hachijo's layer is both above and below Featherine's.

Suppose that you wanted to write a story in which someone was reading about yourself (the author). From the vantage point of said reader, you're someone fictional in a book writing about the reader. While the latter scenario is more surreal, it conveniently occurs in a world full of magical stuff anyway, while the former can take place in a real world (you could do it right now if you wanted to).

It just happens that as the reader of Umineko both vantage points are available to us as "real", leading to the confusing event in EP6.

Well, that's the 300 million yen question, isn't it. How much Ange is in the stories Ange claims to have read? And how does that work, exactly? I wonder if we'll ever actually find out.

[Helmet-kun]

Spoiler for My Shpeil on 19th Person 'X':

Spoiler for Concerning Lion:

Lion is the 19th person in his own little world, no? He is the baby that Natsuhi accepted, and is looked and favored by many. It's a miracle that he exists.

What I have a problem with is that he seems...well, too normal. If you flip the chessboard around, Natsuhi would have neglected Lion in favor of her own child that carries her own blood. If you throw in the fact that Lion came along and then Jessica was born but months later, Lion would have grown up to be much more distant person.

Regardless of how he grew up, Lion didn't affect ANYONE's lives. Everyone grew up the same way, act the same way, have trouble recalling Lion himself. Bern's either a crappy writer that didn't incorporate any of these changes, or this is just an intentional ploy that goes along with Lion being a placeholder. Hell, if Yasu took the place of Lion, I think it would have made much more sense, and the world wouldn't really be if Lion existed, but if Yasu hadn't been given up and raised to be heir by Kinzo (Or at least, my understanding of it).

I think that the real person that GM'ed EP7 was the person Lion replaced (or at least...tried to).

Spoiler for Concerning Yasu:

The problem with Yasu is that her motive doesn't add up at all, along with her...'very touchy' existence.

The biggest hole in her existence is EP5. Who knew about Natsuhi's sin other than her, after all?

Not only that, but Piece-Beato also claimed to have killed her, and challenged her head on (or take revenge on her). It's been made clear that Piece-Beato=/= Meta Beato (Based on...Well, everything), and through that order, Yasu created a Beatrice, who late came to be known as Meta-Beato, and Meta-Beatrice created Piece-Beato, whose memory also resets (but like Erika's, it's rarely implied).

That's also part of the many reasons I don't accept Yasu. If Meta-Beato really did know Yasu and was making Battler pay for his sin, why would her own gameboard have her piece kill Yasu (Or at least pretend to)? Piece-Beato is practically doing the exact opposite of Caller was doing.

And where the hell is Lambda with this information? It's been implied that she knows the truth(=Witch's Side). Why would she make a move like that- having two pieces do entirely separate things? Having 19th person X be the HUMAN culprit, and Piece-Beato claim that it's magic and that she did it?

Spoiler for In short:

19th person X's existence doesn't actually make much sense at all. Lion's is a freakin' trainwreck, and Yasu's is a loophole within a loophole.

[Renall]

Well, you must also remember that the entire Lion thing is well outside the bounds of what we are told may exist in any capacity to begin with. It's basically rampant speculation on Bern's (or someone's) part. As far as the fictional "games" permit, Lion's existence is not allowed (out of bounds), and if we go by the notion that there is a "reality," Lion never existed in it (as Lion, anyway).

I think that's part of why Will is willing to defend the chance of it being happy. It's a "fantasy" anyway, it's not required to end in tragedy. Unlike "reality" which does/did.

[Keriaku]

I'm gonna repost my Meta World theory, because I'm really hoping people will think about it and give their thoughts. I believe it's relevant in the face of Renall's theory because of its incredible simplicity. Rather than making the whole meta world almost more confusing, it makes everything simple, and even more accessible from the very beginning of the series. It's even hinted about from EP1 by Maria, with her Beatrice 'exists' statements, and takes into account almost every Meta scene in the series. This viewpoint is even possible to take from the get-go of the series if someone was so inclined, which I think trumps a theory that needs EP6+ knowledge to even begin to make sense of the meta world.

Spoiler for Meta-World Theory:

Meta-World Theory


I have a theory to present regarding the Meta-world as a whole. I've had this theory since the end of EP6, and because of the nature of EP7, I don't believe there is anything beyond conjecture that contradicts it. On the contrary, I believe this is how Ryuukishi wants us to view the meta world and setting.

What I believe is that the meta world truly exists as a 4th dimensional reality, outside of time and space, in a plane higher than the usual 3rd dimensional reality that most fiction and the world we live in is. And I don't mean as just a narrative use, which is implied, as anything presented in the story has some sort of narrative use. I mean that Sakutarou, Virgillia, Siestas and even Eiserne Jungfrau all equally exist just as much as Krauss, Ange or the island Rokkenjima.

Maria

Let's look at some of the implications of this, for example, when Ange is discussing Maria's life in EP4. As she points out, she can't see Maria as anything but a sad, pitiable child, who turns to imaginary friends so that she can play by herself instead of being lonely. Maria questions why she thinks this, because she says that with magic she truly is happy. This is what we are told to believe, but from the kind of discussions I've seen surrounding Yasu and other such 'delusions' I don't think many of you actually believe or consider this. But if we accept that the meta plane completely exists, and Maria has 'transcended' to this new realm where a being named Sakutarou has a form that she can talk and play with, Maria's words make perfect sense. Maria even has the bonus of a physical body, so she can play around with Sakutarou in ways a normal girl would.

Author Theory

This sort of perspective seems to wipe away all of the fuzziness and vague points about the Meta world, while giving it a concrete definition and making the story of Umineko - and by extension, Higurashi - much more satisfying. Let's take a look at Featherine and the 'Author Theory' that has been presented. It seems many people are dissatisfied with this idea, and from some points of view making more than half of Umineko into nothing more than 'fanfiction'. From the way I see it though, Featherine rather witnessed the games Battler and Beatrice were taking part in on the higher plane and wrote them down as stories in the lower plane, so that they'd have an existence that unenlightened people could perceive. Even the conversation Ange and Hachijo have at the end of EP6 makes complete sense from this perspective. When Ange asks if Hachijo was Featherine, or if Featherine was Hachijo, Featherine just responds with a 'Whatever could you mean?'. If the meta plane exists as a extension of the 3rd dimension, then that would be like asking which is the 'real' you, your torso or your head?

Meta Characters

Looking at the meta world in this way, you can find reasonable arguments as to why all of the characters who have 'transcended' became enlightened to this metaphysical existence. Maria is the most obvious, as she was most likely extremely dissatisfied with her life, while being very knowledgeable in occult knowledge, and in semi-regular contact with Beatrice, all making her very open to this idea. Though to her, this all seems like regular 'magic' and nothing as important as a whole other reality. Ange is similar to Maria, as she is very influenced by her, but more importantly she has no attachment to her physical life and every reason to leave it. And in this realm that is outside of time/space, there's no reason why Ange couldn't enter into the closed space of Rokkenjima 1986 to help Battler. This 'time travel' idea is another point that people sometimes mention, but is always left in the dark, or worse it makes people question the validity and use of the meta world, calling it muddled or contrived. But from the 4th dimension perspective, it makes perfect sense. For the others, this is just conjecture but it seems like people can be pulled into this plane, and they are usually the most confused. For example, Battler who obviously has been pulled in by Beatrice, who I believe has been using the higher nature of this plane (read: endlessly repeating alternate realities) to convey things to Battler that she (Let it be as Yasu or whatnot) could never hope to tell or describe to him in the regular world. Then there's Eva who seems to have only ascended in the catbox of Rokkenjima, and as more of a subconscious thing, as she perceives it as 'talking to herself'. This meta aspect of herself is obviously born from her desires and goals, which formed when she was very young. This is still just conjecture, but the reason she starts to be feverish and very sick could be because her adult mind doesn't understand what’s happening when her meta-self starts interacting and doing things in this higher plane and she gets very upset and confused.

Gameboard

To make something clear, the gameboard-Rokkenjima is not the same thing as the meta plane, I rather see the endless nature of Rokkenjima as a natural ability one can have from being in this 4th dimension. This is in no way only linked to Rokkenjima. Ange links it to the world beyond when she mentions that her other selves will certainly meet Featherine, even if ‘she’ will never see her again. This is hard evidence that the alternating realities are more than just limited to Rokkenjima, but it seems like people tend to ignore bits of information like this. This interpretation is even fully in line with Rika in Higurashi, without having to mould Hinamizawa into another kind of gameboard which doesn’t seem to fit as simply (though the connections are there). What is special about Rokkenjima is its catbox nature, which is what allows people to give fully fantasy interpretations of what happened on Rokkenjima, or even allow this game of truth to take place over it. Though even for the fully fantasy arcs (for example, EP2) there is no reason to write these off as just fictions, I like to believe these are still full realities the characters lived through, and the growth and experiences did happen to them. Disregarding these would be akin to disregarding the character development the Higurashi characters went through in Tatarigoroshi-hen, just because it wasn’t the world that actually ended up happening in Matsuribayashi-hen.

On the topic of the game played throughout all of Umineko, with red truths, blue truths etc. Even this kind of game makes sense in a 4th dimension of concepts. In a place where concepts are fully existent things, such as ‘disappearance’ (Gaap), or ‘sin’ (Stakes), it makes sense that people would argue over something that is not in anyway set in stone, truth. As anyone who has taken any philosophy will know, truth is never something that can be absolute, shown by the idea that it is even impossible to give a concrete definition of a fact. This leads to the character Erika, who has ascended to this realm with the help of Bernkastel. Being suddenly thrust into this new realm, coming from her ‘human’ 3rd dimensional perspective, she is hard set on the idea of a singular truth. We are shown many times that she is unfamiliar with the workings of this higher plane, and by applying her real world knowledge, she thinks there must only be one truth. This is an obvious fallacy in this higher dimension, and makes her final moments in EP6 where she realizes her mistake much more climactic. There is even a line in the final moments, where she mentions that all the goats (read: unenlightened people) must have thought she lost, but then she pulls out the dual-existence trick for the guest room.

Yasu, Kanon/Shannon

On the subject of Yasu with Kanon and Shannon, I believe that Kanon and Shannon are very similar to Sakutarou and Bernkastel in some regards. I believe that Kanon and Shannon do, truly exist in this higher plane as individual beings. This is even what is presented throughout the story. This is a much more satisfying conclusion than thinking of them as perpetual delusions, or turning Yasu into a schizophrenic. If anything, I think this turns Yasu into someone miraculous, being able to create two fully formed beings out of her singular ‘human’ existence, even if she loses herself in the process. This is my own thoughts, but their idea of furniture and being unable to love could be from them being self-aware of their own existence. That they know they both come from the same person, and that their existence is inherently linked to the catbox of Rokkenjima, kind of in the same way that Bernkastel was losing her sanity as Rika as she felt more and more trapped. I believe it is more their own attitude about themselves that needs to change and this is inline with ‘ocean is blue or grey’ sentiments for them. They need to accept that they can be happy with their existence solely in this higher reality, without being linked the reality below and this is why they yearn for the Golden Land. The idea that they are self-aware is even hinted to in EP4 in the jail where they mention the recurring realities. This is how I believe everyone will get their happy endings, and was the function of George and Jessica ‘ascending’ to the meta world in EP6. Kanon, Jessica, George and Shannon will all be happy in their universes of two. Same with Ange, Maria, Beatrice and Battler. I know most people ‘won’t get it’, and they will think that having everyone happy in the meta world is cheap, but that’s because they don’t have the right perspective on it. To me, people being happy in this transcendental realm is no less real then having everything work out in the world below.

Conclusion

This kind of story function is also exactly in line with Higurashi, where it was not a fantasy at all as presented, and had a singular ‘metaphysical fantasy’ aspect in the repeating worlds that Rika went through. Umineko is the same, but on a much, much larger scale. It’s only ‘fantasy’ aspect is the acceptance of this metaphysical realm, which is not exactly fantasy in the usual sense. It also completely fits in line with the themes of the When They Cry series so far, and this kind of acceptance of the meta realm opens the doors for countless sequels and the expansion of this incredible setting that Ryuukishi has created. I really, truly believe that this is how Ryuukishi has envisioned the setting on Umineko, and it ultimately makes Umineko into an incredibly satisfying experience. I have never seen a 4th dimensional, metaphysical setting as detailed by being so inherently linked to the meta aspects of itself. If there is a 4th dimension beyond our 3rd dimensional reality, I actually think it would be similar to the world that Ryuukishi has created.

This theory is in no way very polished, but I hope you guys will at least consider the notion, and help strengthen it. All the aspects of the meta world just seem to fall into place with this perspective, and I hope you guys will give your thoughts on it.

P.S. Ryuukishi has give the only mental image of a realm close to Plato’s realm of ‘perfect forms’ or mathematical truths, that I have ever encountered before, and I need to give him kudos for that.

[alviam099]

I quite agree to Renall there
In case that Lion's world is fantasy or whatever it is and if it is fantasy it does not need to end in a bad way since almost all of us creates our own world that we can be happy ..
Eh? So what if it is Yasu's fantasy ? A typical dream of someone who did not achieve anything in terms of family .. oh well sorry I haven't read Ep7 so far

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Keriaku

This viewpoint is even possible to take from the get-go of the series if someone was so inclined, which I think trumps a theory that needs EP6+ knowledge to even begin to make sense of the meta world.

Actually, I started developing the Author Theory at the beginning of EP2's time, due mostly to the existence of the written letters in a bottle. If the meta-world simply existed, then there would've been no real need to introduce the letters as a major story element. Especially seeing how they come up again in EP4.

It was interesting to note that at that time, I was actually suspecting Shannon to have written them and that she may have survived to continue writing more. Although certain friends kept discouraging my idea until EP6.

[Keriaku]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Actually, I started developing the Author Theory at the beginning of EP2's time, due mostly to the existence of the written letters in a bottle. If the meta-world simply existed, then there would've been no real need to introduce the letters as a major story element. Especially seeing how they come up again in EP4.

I disagree, as the meta world existing doesn't invalidate the letters. Obviously the mastermind has something they want to accomplish in the lower reality, otherwise they would've just given up completely and tried to detach themselves from it (Which even does happen in EP4 where Beatrice tries to stay with MARIA)

And I don't think that tiny point is enough to invalidate the things that I make fit.
What do you guys say about Maria and Sakutarou? What do you guys say about Maria saying Beatrice 'exists'? What do you guys say about Ange's whole meditation scene in EP4? My theory fits in perfectly with the way Ryuukishi presents these scenes and how we're suppose to see all of this stuff with love.

With the Author Theory, do you guys write off the development of real world characters in meta scenes? I'd rather embrace it. Do you guys think there can't be a happy ending for Kanon AND Shannon?

[~Ayane~]

Originally Posted by Keriaku

I'm gonna repost my Meta World theory, because I'm really hoping people will think about it and give their thoughts. I believe it's relevant in the face of Renall's theory because of its incredible simplicity. Rather than making the whole meta world almost more confusing, it makes everything simple, and even more accessible from the very beginning of the series. It's even hinted about from EP1 by Maria, with her Beatrice 'exists' statements, and takes into account almost every Meta scene in the series. This viewpoint is even possible to take from the get-go of the series if someone was so inclined, which I think trumps a theory that needs EP6+ knowledge to even begin to make sense of the meta world.

Spoiler for Meta-World Theory:

Meta-World Theory


I have a theory to present regarding the Meta-world as a whole. I've had this theory since the end of EP6, and because of the nature of EP7, I don't believe there is anything beyond conjecture that contradicts it. On the contrary, I believe this is how Ryuukishi wants us to view the meta world and setting.

What I believe is that the meta world truly exists as a 4th dimensional reality, outside of time and space, in a plane higher than the usual 3rd dimensional reality that most fiction and the world we live in is. And I don't mean as just a narrative use, which is implied, as anything presented in the story has some sort of narrative use. I mean that Sakutarou, Virgillia, Siestas and even Eiserne Jungfrau all equally exist just as much as Krauss, Ange or the island Rokkenjima.

Maria

Let's look at some of the implications of this, for example, when Ange is discussing Maria's life in EP4. As she points out, she can't see Maria as anything but a sad, pitiable child, who turns to imaginary friends so that she can play by herself instead of being lonely. Maria questions why she thinks this, because she says that with magic she truly is happy. This is what we are told to believe, but from the kind of discussions I've seen surrounding Yasu and other such 'delusions' I don't think many of you actually believe or consider this. But if we accept that the meta plane completely exists, and Maria has 'transcended' to this new realm where a being named Sakutarou has a form that she can talk and play with, Maria's words make perfect sense. Maria even has the bonus of a physical body, so she can play around with Sakutarou in ways a normal girl would.

Author Theory

This sort of perspective seems to wipe away all of the fuzziness and vague points about the Meta world, while giving it a concrete definition and making the story of Umineko - and by extension, Higurashi - much more satisfying. Let's take a look at Featherine and the 'Author Theory' that has been presented. It seems many people are dissatisfied with this idea, and from some points of view making more than half of Umineko into nothing more than 'fanfiction'. From the way I see it though, Featherine rather witnessed the games Battler and Beatrice were taking part in on the higher plane and wrote them down as stories in the lower plane, so that they'd have an existence that unenlightened people could perceive. Even the conversation Ange and Hachijo have at the end of EP6 makes complete sense from this perspective. When Ange asks if Hachijo was Featherine, or if Featherine was Hachijo, Featherine just responds with a 'Whatever could you mean?'. If the meta plane exists as a extension of the 3rd dimension, then that would be like asking which is the 'real' you, your torso or your head?

Meta Characters

Looking at the meta world in this way, you can find reasonable arguments as to why all of the characters who have 'transcended' became enlightened to this metaphysical existence. Maria is the most obvious, as she was most likely extremely dissatisfied with her life, while being very knowledgeable in occult knowledge, and in semi-regular contact with Beatrice, all making her very open to this idea. Though to her, this all seems like regular 'magic' and nothing as important as a whole other reality. Ange is similar to Maria, as she is very influenced by her, but more importantly she has no attachment to her physical life and every reason to leave it. And in this realm that is outside of time/space, there's no reason why Ange couldn't enter into the closed space of Rokkenjima 1986 to help Battler. This 'time travel' idea is another point that people sometimes mention, but is always left in the dark, or worse it makes people question the validity and use of the meta world, calling it muddled or contrived. But from the 4th dimension perspective, it makes perfect sense. For the others, this is just conjecture but it seems like people can be pulled into this plane, and they are usually the most confused. For example, Battler who obviously has been pulled in by Beatrice, who I believe has been using the higher nature of this plane (read: endlessly repeating alternate realities) to convey things to Battler that she (Let it be as Yasu or whatnot) could never hope to tell or describe to him in the regular world. Then there's Eva who seems to have only ascended in the catbox of Rokkenjima, and as more of a subconscious thing, as she perceives it as 'talking to herself'. This meta aspect of herself is obviously born from her desires and goals, which formed when she was very young. This is still just conjecture, but the reason she starts to be feverish and very sick could be because her adult mind doesn't understand what’s happening when her meta-self starts interacting and doing things in this higher plane and she gets very upset and confused.

Gameboard

To make something clear, the gameboard-Rokkenjima is not the same thing as the meta plane, I rather see the endless nature of Rokkenjima as a natural ability one can have from being in this 4th dimension. This is in no way only linked to Rokkenjima. Ange links it to the world beyond when she mentions that her other selves will certainly meet Featherine, even if ‘she’ will never see her again. This is hard evidence that the alternating realities are more than just limited to Rokkenjima, but it seems like people tend to ignore bits of information like this. This interpretation is even fully in line with Rika in Higurashi, without having to mould Hinamizawa into another kind of gameboard which doesn’t seem to fit as simply (though the connections are there). What is special about Rokkenjima is its catbox nature, which is what allows people to give fully fantasy interpretations of what happened on Rokkenjima, or even allow this game of truth to take place over it. Though even for the fully fantasy arcs (for example, EP2) there is no reason to write these off as just fictions, I like to believe these are still full realities the characters lived through, and the growth and experiences did happen to them. Disregarding these would be akin to disregarding the character development the Higurashi characters went through in Tatarigoroshi-hen, just because it wasn’t the world that actually ended up happening in Matsuribayashi-hen.

On the topic of the game played throughout all of Umineko, with red truths, blue truths etc. Even this kind of game makes sense in a 4th dimension of concepts. In a place where concepts are fully existent things, such as ‘disappearance’ (Gaap), or ‘sin’ (Stakes), it makes sense that people would argue over something that is not in anyway set in stone, truth. As anyone who has taken any philosophy will know, truth is never something that can be absolute, shown by the idea that it is even impossible to give a concrete definition of a fact. This leads to the character Erika, who has ascended to this realm with the help of Bernkastel. Being suddenly thrust into this new realm, coming from her ‘human’ 3rd dimensional perspective, she is hard set on the idea of a singular truth. We are shown many times that she is unfamiliar with the workings of this higher plane, and by applying her real world knowledge, she thinks there must only be one truth. This is an obvious fallacy in this higher dimension, and makes her final moments in EP6 where she realizes her mistake much more climactic. There is even a line in the final moments, where she mentions that all the goats (read: unenlightened people) must have thought she lost, but then she pulls out the dual-existence trick for the guest room.

Yasu, Kanon/Shannon

On the subject of Yasu with Kanon and Shannon, I believe that Kanon and Shannon are very similar to Sakutarou and Bernkastel in some regards. I believe that Kanon and Shannon do, truly exist in this higher plane as individual beings. This is even what is presented throughout the story. This is a much more satisfying conclusion than thinking of them as perpetual delusions, or turning Yasu into a schizophrenic. If anything, I think this turns Yasu into someone miraculous, being able to create two fully formed beings out of her singular ‘human’ existence, even if she loses herself in the process. This is my own thoughts, but their idea of furniture and being unable to love could be from them being self-aware of their own existence. That they know they both come from the same person, and that their existence is inherently linked to the catbox of Rokkenjima, kind of in the same way that Bernkastel was losing her sanity as Rika as she felt more and more trapped. I believe it is more their own attitude about themselves that needs to change and this is inline with ‘ocean is blue or grey’ sentiments for them. They need to accept that they can be happy with their existence solely in this higher reality, without being linked the reality below and this is why they yearn for the Golden Land. The idea that they are self-aware is even hinted to in EP4 in the jail where they mention the recurring realities. This is how I believe everyone will get their happy endings, and was the function of George and Jessica ‘ascending’ to the meta world in EP6. Kanon, Jessica, George and Shannon will all be happy in their universes of two. Same with Ange, Maria, Beatrice and Battler. I know most people ‘won’t get it’, and they will think that having everyone happy in the meta world is cheap, but that’s because they don’t have the right perspective on it. To me, people being happy in this transcendental realm is no less real then having everything work out in the world below.

Conclusion

This kind of story function is also exactly in line with Higurashi, where it was not a fantasy at all as presented, and had a singular ‘metaphysical fantasy’ aspect in the repeating worlds that Rika went through. Umineko is the same, but on a much, much larger scale. It’s only ‘fantasy’ aspect is the acceptance of this metaphysical realm, which is not exactly fantasy in the usual sense. It also completely fits in line with the themes of the When They Cry series so far, and this kind of acceptance of the meta realm opens the doors for countless sequels and the expansion of this incredible setting that Ryuukishi has created. I really, truly believe that this is how Ryuukishi has envisioned the setting on Umineko, and it ultimately makes Umineko into an incredibly satisfying experience. I have never seen a 4th dimensional, metaphysical setting as detailed by being so inherently linked to the meta aspects of itself. If there is a 4th dimension beyond our 3rd dimensional reality, I actually think it would be similar to the world that Ryuukishi has created.

This theory is in no way very polished, but I hope you guys will at least consider the notion, and help strengthen it. All the aspects of the meta world just seem to fall into place with this perspective, and I hope you guys will give your thoughts on it.

P.S. Ryuukishi has give the only mental image of a realm close to Plato’s realm of ‘perfect forms’ or mathematical truths, that I have ever encountered before, and I need to give him kudos for that.

yes, you know...this is the most logical and probable theory, but try to explain this to anti-fantasy people and they will call you a retard..sad..