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[Dhomochevsky]

If they did not misuse the 'top secret' lable to hide serious crimes, embaressments and so on, that would go a long way to protect their actual top secrets...
Just an idea, in case they might be interested in that national security thing for real.

People like Manning, Snowden etc., who seem to be rather patriotic at heart, wouldn't be forced into the difficult decission to do the right thing.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

All equal under the law. There isn't a miscarriage of justice; it is government policy. You should stop pretending there was ever any attempts to prosecute those responsible. They go free not because someone made a mistake, but because that was what the US government desired.

National Security allowed criminals to go free. The same National Security that wants to throw the book at Manning. They are not unrelated, to treat them as independent of one another is disingenuous.

And you should stop trying to put words in my mouth Since when is a bad govt policy/misuse of prosecutorial discretion not a miscarriage of justice? And please point out where the **** did I suggest there were attempts to charge those guys?

Maybe you need to read what others are actually saying, not what you think they are saying.

I don't even know what you're going on about with the unrelated/independent bit. The point is that just because bad guy A doesn't get punished doesn't mean bad guy B should get a free pass too.

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

People like Manning, Snowden etc., who seem to be rather patriotic at heart, wouldn't be forced into the difficult decission to do the right thing.

I applaud what Snowden did, whether he's patriotic or not I don't know, nor do I think it really matters. Manning on the other hand, comes across as just another soldier who got pissed off at his command, and picked a really terrible and stupid way to vent.

Like I said above, it's one thing if Manning only released info on legitimate misconducts like Snowden did, but he went over the line by releasing other classified Info's that were not. It would be like if Snowden released detailed specific info on NSA systems or other legitimately classified Info's out of spite.

[Eragon]

Maybe we can all calm the FUCK down ? Would be good idea, don't you think ? I'm all for reading a bit of fiery debate but, when you, Vallen and Mentar are involved it usually goes out of hand pretty quickly - not to say I don't enjoy conflicting opinions.


EDIT : Brain fart. It was the Gun-Control thread

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Eragon

Maybe we can all calm the FUCK down ? Would be good idea, don't you think ? I'm all for reading a bit of fiery debate but, when you, Vallen and Mentar are involved it usually goes out of hand pretty quickly - not to say I don't enjoy conflicting opinions.

EDIT : Brain fart. It was the Gun-Control thread

Gee, nothing like jumping into a perfectly civil debate half-cocked, yelling at people pointlessly and then insulting them. Thanks for your valuable contribution.

[TinyRedLeaf]

There was some talk last month about alleged organ harvesting from executed Falun Gong members by the Chinese authorities.

Here's a related story to serve as a follow up.

China to end harvesting of organs from executed prisoners

Beijing (Aug 21, Wed): A computerised system to match transplant organs to patients and end the reliance on harvesting organs from executed criminals and the black market is being introduced in China.

Sweeping reforms designed to ensure a fair and transparent system also mean that organ donation co-ordinators will be required to obtain professional qualifications.

They will have to be doctors and nurses with at least two years of clinical experience.

The new system, similar to the United Network for Organ Sharing in the United States, will be introduced from Sept 1, according to national health commission officials.

It will allocate organs through a centralised computer network among the 165 Chinese hospitals allowed to carry out transplants, Xinhua reported.

Doctors who use organs other than those obtained from the centralised sharing network will be disqualified.

China currently conducts more than 10,000 organ transplants each year, with only the US carrying out more. China is the only large country that still systematically uses organs harvested from executed prisoners.

Since the Supreme Court introduced stricter rules in 2007, the number of executed prisoners has declined, making the present system unsustainable.

In March 2010, a voluntary organ donation programme was launched in 11 provinces and cities including Tianjin, Shanghai, Nanjing, Xiamen, Wuhan and Guangdong under the supervision of the Red Cross.

Donated organs now account for nearly 15 per cent of all organ transplants, from almost zero three years ago. Almost a fifth of these are donated kidneys, according to figures from the National Health and Family Planning Commission.

SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by kyp275

From my perspective as former military, I do believe that Manning should be punished, though perhaps for a somewhat different reason than the ones that's been mentioned here.

I have no problem with him exposing war crimes(edited vids that doesn't show the context need not apply), and if that's all he did, then he should be protected. Problem is he went far beyond that - hundreds of thousands of diplomatic cables and other classified info that has nothing to do with any war crimes. That he has no excuse for, especially as a member of the armed services. We volunteered to give up certain rights and operate under an additional set of laws when we joined, and one does not get to casually throw that away for their political beliefs.

Not military-related, but I agree. His heart was in the right place, but he was also dealing with a lot of other issues. He released documents related to his concerns, but then there were some things that he released where he was unaware of the contents. On one hand I want people to come forward if they feel that abuses are occurring, but on the other hand I don't want people to go crazy and expose things that have no good reason for being exposed. (The trick, of course, is to define what a "good reason" is, as well as what corruption is.) I think that his sentence was overly harsh.

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

General topic: Apparently everyone has an education in law. I guess I'll leave people be to their thoughts.

If you have an education in law, you could stand to teach people things instead of just belittling them. Although be warned, if you're not already aware, Americans do not think highly of lawyers or lawmakers. Note also that just because something is law, it is not morally or ethically right.

[ganbaru]

U.N. peacekeepers in Congo ordered to protect civilians after city shelled
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...97L0WB20130823

Small cities pivotal to property's support for China's growth
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...97L17720130822

[TinyRedLeaf]

Welcome to the Age of Denial

By Adam Frank

Rochester, New York, Aug 23 (Thu)

IN 1982, I was an undergraduate physics major. In 1989, I was a graduate student. My dream was that, in a quarter-century, I would be a professor of astrophysics, introducing a new generation of students to the powerful yet delicate craft of scientific research.

Much of that dream has come true. Yet instead of sending my students into a world that celebrates the latest science has to offer, I am delivering them into a society ambivalent, even sceptical, about the fruits of science.

The triumph of Western science led most of my professors to believe that progress was inevitable. While the bargain between science and political culture was at times challenged — the nuclear power debate of the 1970s, for example — the battles were fought using scientific evidence. Manufacturing doubt remained firmly off-limits.

Today, however, it is politically effective, and socially acceptable, to deny scientific fact. Narrowly defined, "creationism" was a minor current in American thinking for much of the 20th century. But in the years since I was a student, a well-funded effort has skilfully rebranded that ideology as "creation science" and pushed it into classrooms across the country.

Though transparently unscientific, denying evolution has become a litmus test for some conservative politicians, even at the highest levels.

Meanwhile, climate deniers, taking pages from the creationists' PR playbook, have manufactured doubt about fundamental issues in climate science that were decided scientifically decades ago. And anti-vaccine campaigners brandish a few long-discredited studies to make unproven claims about links between autism and vaccination.

Even as our day-to-day experiences have become dependent on technological progress, many of our leaders have abandoned the postwar bargain in favour of what the scientist Michael Mann calls the "scientisation of politics".

What do I tell my students? From one end of their educational trajectory to the other, our society told these kids science was important. How confusing is it for them now, when scientists receive death threats for simply doing honest research on our planet's climate history?

During my undergraduate studies, I was shocked at the low opinion some of my professors had of the astronomer Carl Sagan. For me his efforts to popularise science were an inspiration, but for them such "outreach" was a diversion. That view makes no sense today.

The enthusiasm and generous spirit that Mr Sagan used to advocate for science now must inspire all of us. Behind the giant particle accelerators and space observatories, science is a way of behaving in the world. It is, simply put, a tradition.

And as we know from history's darkest moments, even the most enlightened traditions can be broken and lost. Perhaps that is the most important lesson all lifelong students of science must learn now.

NEW YORK TIMES


Adam Frank, a professor of physics and astronomy at the University of Rochester, is the author of About Time: Cosmology and Culture at the Twilight of the Big Bang and a founder of NPR's 13.7 Cosmos and Culture blog.

[MrTerrorist]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Welcome to the Age of Denial

Reading this makes me feel the United States is now a lost cause for the brighter, future generations with politicians only caring about their careers now rather than the next generation of future scientist, thinkers, doctors and technology experts.

[Ithekro]

Somehow I think that article has come up before...or one similar to it.

I recall Carl Sagan's Cosmos and enjoyed it as a child. While I didn't go into science, I did go into history. Studying the past to prevent us from making the same mistakes again...so we can have the future Sagan talked about. The one we survive ourselves and explore the cosmos.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

If you have an education in law, you could stand to teach people things instead of just belittling them. Although be warned, if you're not already aware, Americans do not think highly of lawyers or lawmakers. Note also that just because something is law, it is not morally or ethically right.

When everyone twists morals/ethics to make it seem they're in the right (not necessarily people in this forum), I don't think I should be wasting time teaching people. The hypocrites have already corrupted too many, with TinyRedLeaf's linked article above being a prime example.

[Ridwan]

Come on, sweets, cut the drama loose ! We're not in highschool anymore.

[risingstar3110]

Yeah, calm down mate. Don't take it personal....

I means it's suck, but it's not like Sumeragi passed that sentence.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Yeah, calm down mate. Don't take it personal....

I means it's suck, but it's not like Sumeragi passed that sentence.

... I see your point. But things will never be the same again. Every year, I see new reason to look at the United States in a worse light. And I didn't even think it was at all possible to go down the scale, but I manage to every year.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Welcome to the Age of Denial

Nah just another part of history. There had been many cases like this between the last RomCath Interdict and this one.

Though I don't think US is the only country suffering from this. Most 1st world countries are - simply because being in the Biz line gives you more money, and experimentation and testing to grade science has been replaced with memorising formula after formula, concept after concept. The last time my group suggested copper-plate IED construction to demonstrate mallenable materials and dynamic Physics for a science project netted us a PTM.

The Aerospace entrance cohorts are a good example - how many have you seen who actually are interested in playing Daedalus or LDV instead of just joining the course simply because "being an Aerospace student is cool"?

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

... I see your point. But things will never be the same again. Every year, I see new reason to look at the United States in a worse light. And I didn't even think it was at all possible to go down the scale, but I manage to every year.

If the US is at the bottom of your scale, where do you put places like Somalia?

[PzIVf3]

First time in the television history, Chinese troops were caught on tape intruding in the Indian space at Indo-China border near Taiwan in Arunachal


Watch here
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/v...w/21979719.cms

[ganbaru]

China's Bo calls wife mad after she testifies against him
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...97M00M20130823

Britain operates secret monitoring station in Middle East: report
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...97M09K20130823

There’s No ‘Reverse Trayon’ in Christopher Lane Killing : An Australian slain in Oklahoma has the right decrying hypocrisy over coverage of the white victim and black assailants. At least these killers face justice. By Jamelle Bouie.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...e-killing.html

[Zakoo]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

... I see your point. But things will never be the same again. Every year, I see new reason to look at the United States in a worse light. And I didn't even think it was at all possible to go down the scale, but I manage to every year.

Allow me to tell you something that may bring you joy in a certain way : it's not special of US.

Now the sad part of this : Most countries have the same problem.

I remember back in highschool, oh good times, when we were introduced to darwinism, some girls decided to do a revolution in class because the theory went against their .. hmm religious beliefs.

So well, you shouldn't belittle your own country that much, I will gladly admit a good amount of the average citizen are dumb as my little finger whether it's scientifically (but that's normal, you can't be half-assed in science, either you are a scientist or you aren't it's a way of thinking that takes years to enter in the head) or politically, but that's only a minority.

[Ridwan]

Originally Posted by kyp275

If the US is at the bottom of your scale, where do you put places like Somalia?

It's a Libertarian Utopia