Claymore Chapter 86

[Torri_fay_torren@hot]

What's really funny is nobody listened to Miria I could let Riful and Robana slide but afterwards....poor Miria is stuck with a bunch of hotheads.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Originally Posted by Torri_fay_torren@hot

What's really funny is nobody listened to Miria I could let Riful and Robana slide but afterwards....poor Miria is stuck with a bunch of hotheads.

Yeah, and Taby, the only one who would really obey Miria is with her ATM so she is of no use for the others. Anyway, I'm starting to think that Miria has predicted this, that bunch is so crazy that there is no way she wouldnt consider this posibility.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by PureYoki

They couldn't have saved them if they left north one week or even one day later

If you look at it that way then everything which happen from the start are all coincidence. Besides it's not explicitly show how much time when the ghost left the north and arrived at the west. Try looking in other perspective view.

There are many Yoma and AB lurk around in many area. Judging by when Clare was still working for the org. She was No.47 but she still had pretty much job to do every single day. So higher number should have more job because they had to fight AB too. Plus the org's new policy about hunting AB. So I can assume that Claymore do their job everyday.

The fact is that the ghost or Miria couldn't ignore those Claymore. They decided to intervene if they felt that the situation looked bad. In my opinion, those current gen. Claymore who the ghost had rescued were just random number.

Originally Posted by PureYoki

Such coincidences may be normal or even is expected for a manga but sometimes it's confusing to determine whether an event happens coincidentally or has underlying factors.

I dare say that almost every events in Claymore have purpose. It's not just another save the day mission though.

G7, who had been residing in the north for seven years, met Riful on their way and saved #3 and #5 of the org. from Riful's hands.
Riful tried to find and recruit Claymore for her project. I don't know how often she do that. But she won't miss if she has a chance. Riful is picky. She will go after Claymore who have high Yoki and test if she want them or not. But that was not important because the purpose was to reveal that Prissy was more powerful than AO.

Later G7 arrived in Rabona on time and saved Galatea and #4 of the org. from Agatha.
I bet that Clare told Miria that she had helped solving problem in Rabona before. And she had a good relationship with the priest there. So it's obvious that Miria and Clare will go to Rabona first for many reasons such as ask info about Raki, negotiate with the priest for their shelter. Note that even if Galatea doesn't do anything, the ghost will come to kill Agatha anyway. They will surely sense her. But it happened that it had parallel event occurred at the same time.

And the purpose were character developments, reveal the org's truth. <--- This is why they had to meet Galatea here. Because no one cared to ask Miria due to respect her decision as a leader.

Helen and Deneve saved #8 of the org. from an AB.
Clare, Cynthia and Yuma saved a group of claymores including #14 from another AB.
Those were mainly because the ghost sensed the Yoki and decided to go there. They could avoid if they wanted.

[PureYoki]

When members of G7 meet claymores who need help, they should certainly help them, otherwise the plot would be boring, I have no problem with that. The problem is the timing. How often do high-ranked claymores need help, what's the probability of saving a high-ranked claymore at the eleventh hour in your journey after spending seven years in the north? What's the probability of doing that twice, three times in a row?

Originally Posted by zato_1one

If you look at it that way then everything which happen from the start are all coincidence.

No, I don't think so, there were no big coincidences until G7 left the north. For example Irene was able to save Clare because she was in the neighbourhood, Clare was able to save Jean because a claymore in her group asked for help. It doesn't matter how long it takes to go to the west, if they didn't leave at the exact date they left, they would either be too early or too late to save anybody. It's like an outside force urged them to begin their journey.

[lakisar]

Dietrich is too much like jean, whenever she say something i think about jean.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by PureYoki

When members of G7 meet claymores who need help, they should certainly help them, otherwise the plot would be boring, I have no problem with that. The problem is the timing. How often do high-ranked claymores need help, what's the probability of saving a high-ranked claymore at the eleventh hour in your journey after spending seven years in the north? What's the probability of doing that twice, three times in a row?

The problem is that many thing had changed after this past 7 years. Even Clarice was promoted to be a Claymore. That should tell something right? The situation is completely different from before. Claymore have short lifespan. And it's even short in this time. Why? When they went west, they met Riful. When they went South, they met Isley or this demon. Even some AB or Yoma have team up. Now Claymore don't only hunt Yoma or AB but they have to avoid being hunt too. I bet many were death and many were being promote in this gen. Many Claymore in this generation have less experience. Many are unskillful. Dietrich's team is an example. Dietrich is good but her team is suck. And if you don't have any flashy skill then 1 on 1 with AB = suicide.

Originally Posted by PureYoki

No, I don't think so, there were no big coincidences until G7 left the north. For example Irene was able to save Clare because she was in the neighbourhood, Clare was able to save Jean because a claymore in her group asked for help. It doesn't matter how long it takes to go to the west, if they didn't leave at the exact date they left, they would either be too early or too late to save anybody.

The ghost will eventually help someone else, right? It's no matter when or where. If their policy is to intervene others trouble then they will end up helping someone. Because there are trouble everywhere. Just as I said all new Claymore who the ghost had rescued were nothing more than random Claymore.

Originally Posted by PureYoki

It's like an outside force urged them to begin their journey.

ZOMG! Man, I couldn't resist to quote this single sentence. It may be because I read JoJo or xxxHolic too much. Even Irene also mentioned this.

"Fate follow its own plans."
"There is no such thing as coincidence. It's just inevitable."
"When human meets another human, it's because of they have 'gravity' with each other. It happens because it was fated to be that way!"
"The fact that you've been here has already been 'decided'. Because it is 'destiny'!"

LOL Just think of it made my head spin.

[chibamonster]

For timing there is always the factor that we do not have explicit dates to how long things take (ie it is not an anime where time is an issue) and there is always the fact that trouble in the claymore world RADIATES YOUKI.

We don't have to be negative nancy's about this whole thing. For instance; the ghosts created the situation where Galatea would be hunted by Miata and Clarice. How? They saved Clarice's life and she reported on them. After that happened the council put Clarice in special care over Miata, who was unusable before hand and could not have tracked Galatea. We don't know why they did it, and Miata initially did attack Clarice, but in the end they got along pretty well making the team which could hunt Galatea (thanks ghosts). Agatha was already feeding in Rabona, and Galatea was looking for help, and she was waiting for them to show using herself as bait.

Clare searching the north and finding info about Raki was the result of a long search, but she claims she would have gone south anyway. The major factor there seems to be as Deneve said; Clare had the most trouble of any of them forming a technique she could actually use in combat without relying on youki. Notice that Miria tests Clare to see if she actually has it down before letting her go. What better time to leave the north than after they know they will be reported by Clarice? Clarice's advent in the north really sets most of the post time skip off.

We don't know exactly what Riful was doing before she showed up. We know she was trying to awaken Raciella during her 7 years and that nothing worked. As Riful updated us on everything that happened in the last 7 years her appearance certainly did facilitate plot development that we may not have gotten any other way. She even tried to negotiate with Clare.

Renee showed up because she sensed Raki kill a youma, and that had some interesting plot reprocussions, but it was no spectacular incident. Riful capturing Renee was a direct result of her failure to get Clare. This also caused the incident with the Claymores and MiB's where they were on youki suppressants looking for Renee. The AB that attacked them saw an opportunity, yuma got a chance to shine, and Rubel made his appearance. The ghosts directly or indirectly have caused a whole lot of what has happened recently .

We also know with the Organization's new stance on AB's that there are more AB battles at all times. AB's are actively hunted, something not done in Clare's time. This is part of the reason Deitrich has so much experience with AB's; they are eliminating the fallen warriors of the past with a vengeance now.

As for Isley wanting to interrogate Helen and Deneve; that was not a love tap. Had he hit Helen with that she would be dead.

[Flar]

Originally Posted by evil_kenshin

The ghosts stand no chance against an AO let alone with only two members, only a couple of chapters ago they retreated from Riful in fright

I didn't mean Helen and Deneve could beat Isley, I said that their showdown would show that the ghosts (yes, all seven of them) could take on an AO. What Helen and Deneve need to to is to defend enough to amaze everyone, which isn't hard... Especially when the wounded one we saw regenerate immediately from worse even in the first fight we saw her.

Also, they didn't flee Riful in fright. Chatting with the girl or having the confidence they can come, steal her preys and escape doesn't sound really like being frightened. Quite the opposite, and their performance against Agatha or Miata or Yuma's remark about them being strong does nothing to dissipate that idea.

As for their powerlevel, when ABs were the ultimate bad guys back in the first volumes, I distinctly remember several of them being owned. With difficulty and multiple wounds and losses, but killed anyway. Now that these ABs have become such pansies that a former #2 can be totally annihilated, I don't see any reason that the AO could not become what ABs were, and we'll still have the Raciella/Priscilla category to fill the role of undefeatable creatures.

Originally Posted by PureYoki

No, I don't think so, there were no big coincidences until G7 left the north. For example Irene was able to save Clare because she was in the neighbourhood, Clare was able to save Jean because a claymore in her group asked for help.

You use the exact same rationalization, though. Yes, all these encounters happened because X or Y sensed/was in the neighbourhood, but that's precisely the coincidence, that X or Y was in the neighbourhood at exactly the right time. Note I never said coincidence were bad, it's just that there are way too many of them in Claymore. Too many stretch credibility too much.

Examples:
- Irene: Recluse in a shack. How is it not a coincidence that Ophelia would try to kill Clare in range of the single renegade claymore on the whole island who, surprisingly, happens to be one who knew both Teresa and Clare?
- Jean: Clare has the whole island to range. What chance does she have to be in the town the closest to Riful the very day Jean passes by and gets her team exterminated?

Claymore runs on that kind of thing.

Lost a sword? Don't worry, next time you're in the mountains, you'll find it. Need a master or a friend? He'll save you from impending death. Need to show how badass you are? A strong but not too strong AB will pop up just when you meet old friends and new enemies. Need information? Some MiBs will be conspiring in a nearby town and will have an AB beacon to guide you, Louvres will show up after for more infodumping. Need to not stand out? Too bad, you will encounter all the existing AO on your way to crush the org, except the one you're looking for. Just introduced a new race in a recent infodump chapter? Don't worry, you will encounter it at the next village. Enslaved? Don't worry, everyone will be killed but you'll get to meet and befriend the archnemesis of you former partner. Sent in a trap alongside 20 other girls? No worry, not only will you be the four last standing, but you'll also be among the only few ones to survive. And it goes on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that sucks, but just recognizing a trend. I've been saying this for a long time, too.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Lol, i like your synopsis, maybe you should start a site with one for every popular manga like that?

- Clare was tracking Raki btw not ranging over the entire island, the misfortune was most likely just that she was in a major town in the west that was being used as a staging point for a hunt.

But if it helps i kinda like Claymore *because* it's not quite as innocent as just things happening by chance, it is a dark fantasy after all, and i don't really see much coincidence as it is in fact often implied to be anything but.

The swords for example, many a time it was noted that they never break despite having flimsy looking handles, compared to their broad edge and rather long length (gotta wonder what the balance is like). And early on in one particular fight we see a dagger and a regular sword shatter on a tough yoma, but most importantly despite being thrust through support pillars, trees etc, the swords did not. Then only during some info "dumping" by Miria is it revealed that they aren't made of regular Iron like you'd expect. So coincidences are revealed to be not so...

Similarly when nearly everyone who matters in the story radiates yoki like giant arrows pointing at their location for miles around it isn't hard to see how they don't manage to miss one another.

The real juicy parts of the story are hinted at but hardly revealed, such as why Rapheala was close enough to Clare to sense Irene when she used her yoki considering the area was supposed to be remote, and that is a claymore that works for the same handler in the same area of the entire continent (ie v.low chance of that being a coincidence, just as Galatea watched Miria for Ermita IMO)

As for the rest i'll say only this, there still was no proof that there was any other slave in that dungeon apart from Raki, and i don't think it was the smell of the south on Raki that Priscilla liked.

And the whole yoki pills to escape said trap has yet another interesting connotation, but i already discussed that elsewhere.

[tenken627]

Originally Posted by Flar

Claymore runs on that kind of thing.

Lost a sword? Don't worry, next time you're in the mountains, you'll find it. Need a master or a friend? He'll save you from impending death. Need to show how badass you are? A strong but not too strong AB will pop up just when you meet old friends and new enemies. Need information? Some MiBs will be conspiring in a nearby town and will have an AB beacon to guide you, Louvres will show up after for more infodumping. Need to not stand out? Too bad, you will encounter all the existing AO on your way to crush the org, except the one you're looking for. Just introduced a new race in a recent infodump chapter? Don't worry, you will encounter it at the next village. Enslaved? Don't worry, everyone will be killed but you'll get to meet and befriend the archnemesis of you former partner. Sent in a trap alongside 20 other girls? No worry, not only will you be the four last standing, but you'll also be among the only few ones to survive. And it goes on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that sucks, but just recognizing a trend. I've been saying this for a long time, too.

You've been saying the same thing for a year Flar. But, it seems that your statements about it have been reduced from frustration before to now just mere annoyance.

You've been reading Claymore for a while now, and you know just as well as anyone else that this is just a shounen manga and not some piece of Realism literature. Why try to make the story into something it is not? Just sit back and enjoy the ride. As long as it doesn't really "jump the shark", it's still a very entertaining read.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by Flar

I've been saying this for a long time, too.

Yah. I remember that. Haven't seen you in a while and you're still at it huh? Your attitude and your style of writing. Trying to summarize any event in a few sentences. Insert some sarcastic words. And made it looks like a senseless series.

Well, I don't want to argue with it anymore. If you think it senseless and it makes you enjoy the series then that is fine. People have different taste and perspective. But I just want to say that please don't make it sounds like you're right with it. It somehow irritates me a bit.

Almost everything can look like a coincidence though. It depends on a different aspect.

And also don't get me wrong I didn't say that Claymore didn't have any coincidence. But I didn't see it was overly used and senseless just like you mentioned.

[Double_friedman]

Maybe Isley will be so impressed with the the skills of Helen that he will let them live.

[chibamonster]

Sometimes reality can be stranger than fiction: Coincidences

You could always read a slice of life manga Flar. Those shouldn't have many so called "coincidences" going on. I'm with tenken627 and zato_1one on this one. I thought for a moment about rebutting your statements, but then remembered our discussions in the past on the subject.

[PureYoki]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

And also don't get me wrong I didn't say that Claymore didn't have any coincidence. But I didn't see it was overly used and senseless just like you mentioned.

This is it. Coincidences are supposed to happen as long as they help develop the story. I just pointed out some of them but I don't think they spoil the fun.

[GundamZZ]

So and so, I have to rebute all. This chapter is about Isley. It is how his honey Priscilla got NTRed (NETORARE - 寝取られ ) by his "little brother" Raki.

It is probably what he looks like before joining org.
http://static.benippon.com/shop/thum...c9dd45a1b8.jpg

It is what he looks like after being NTRed.
http://www.mobygames.com/images/cove...5242874-00.jpg

[Flar]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

If you think it senseless and it makes you enjoy the series then that is fine. People have different taste and perspective. But I just want to say that please don't make it sounds like you're right with it. It somehow irritates me a bit.

Doesn't make me enjoy the serie, more like I enjoy it despite it. I know it's a shounen and shouldn't be considered a piece of good literature, but there is no harm in making fun of the quirks of a work no matter its genre, is it?

Also, everything that I say is only my opinion, I don't know how to make it sounds like I'm not right. Actually, I don't want to make it sound like I'm not right either. Yet, an opinion is always subjective, so there is no value in me reminding others that they can disagree just fine.

Well anyway, I had just wanted to talk about what likely happened to Deneve and Helen, for the first time I was passing by in months. Coincidences, well, it seems more people than last time agree with me, but I'm fine with not rehashing the same argument, there is Teresa/Priscilla for that... Just let it pass when I make a snide remark in the middle of a block of text about something else

So, on topic, what about next chapter is:
Deneve: Regen! *woosh*
Helen: Yoki release!
* fight *
Isley: See, I knew you were strong if you released. Now excuse me, I have some pressing business elsewhere. *leaves*
DoD: Gao! Creatures of the organisation, die!
Helen & Deneve: Oh snap!
*switches to Clare*

[chibamonster]

Originally Posted by Flar

Also, everything that I say is only my opinion, I don't know how to make it sounds like I'm not right. Actually, I don't want to make it sound like I'm not right either.

Coincidences, well, it seems more people than last time agree with me, but I'm fine

*sigh* Apparently you do know. Coincidence?

Bah, I can feel the desire to use the story to bash you rising again. Basically you have just decided the story is this way and you do it to get a rise out of people if I remember correctly. I can dig the post out if I have to, but something to the effect of you wanting to post something different than everyone else. So instead I will ask; What serialized story has acceptable coincidences for you?

Spoiler for As I understood it:

Originally Posted by Flar

Ah, but when I want to comment on something awesome, there are already about 4 billions post about it, so to not be redudant I am forced to become analytical about the smallest thing and play at contradicting argumentative, well spoken posters like chibamonster on points I feel should not be left without counterarguments.

Now to get back on track, if instead of fused claymores you would see some politicking, the ghosts setting up HQ in Rabona, kicking tail here and there or even some slice of life pages showing the characters outside of training, fighting and making reports, that would totally rule, if I may say so. Some world expanding, boats, manoeuvring the current powers, non absolute evil opposition, conflict within the ghosts, I'll take it all.

I never said you were trolling. I said you wanted to be different,Contradicting argumentative. Picking the opposite of what is being said as to not be redundant. I phrase it "getting a rise out of people" as you start from the opposite stance of what has been posted.

I was just curious which series do not have this contradiction issue. I'd probably check them out. It wasn't an attack. I read biomega and blame at your recommendation and loved them.

[Flar]

You mean I ought to put a disclaimer "Despite what you might think, this post on an internet forum is only my opinion. Opinions are subjective and not always reflecting the truth." in my sig? Duh. I don't think I will, as this is obvious, especially when applied to posts that only amount to critical appraisal and speculation.

As for the coincidence thing, I thought you didn't want to get at it again? I don't care much about it, frankly.

Having said that, to answer your question quickly, it doesn't matter which other series string of coincidences challenge my suspension of disbelief and which don't, Claymore does. Also it's not about having a coincidence being acceptable, it's about the number and improbability of them, and that is very subjective. Not one person has the same criteria and the same thresholds, so when I write "it's funny how wherever our heroes go on a stroll, AO and other demons sprout like mushrooms by coincidence" and I get jumped for stating my opinion, try to explain my view and then get jumped again because I sound too much like I'm "right", I feel a bit tired. You people don't need to try convince me that your take on Claymore is the right one, not mine, and you don't need to feel that one liners like that are an attempt at converting anyone to that way of thinking or engaging discussion on it.

Whatever, dig that post if you want, I'm sceptical I have ever said I was trolling, as it is definitely not what I do.

You sure you don't want to talk about Helen and Deneve?

[Sleepy Speculator]

Can i stop both of you right there, you must know by now that I'm the only one that's right here surely?

I must get some of those disclaimer things myself, sometime.

[Flar]

@Chiba: In all honesty I cannot say that any serie is devoid of contradictions, or more to the point, of things susceptible to break suspension of disbelief. I can only list the ones that reel me in nicely, like:

• Hiroki Endo's Eden, it's an endless world
• Hayao Miyazaki's Nausicaä
• Q Hayashida's Dorohedoro
• Naoki Urasawa's Pluto
• Hitoshi Ashinano's Yokohama Kadaishi Kikou
• Kei Toume's The hour of the Mice
• Makoto Yukimura's Vinland Saga
• Katsushiro Otomo's Akira
• Masamune Shirow's Ghost in the Shell
• Ryu Kum-chel's Ares
• Hiroaki Samura's Blade of the Immortal
• Mitsuru Adachi's Cross Game
• Makoto Yukimura's Planetes
• And yes, when the fancy takes me, some shoujo like Ai Yazawa's Nana

Though I guess for something close to Claymore, I would suggest Ares, blade of the immortal first, then Yukito Kishiro's Gunnm, Shin Angyo Onshi, Miwa Shirow's Dogs, something like Blood, the last vampire short manga, Monster Collection, Record of Lodoss War: The Lady of Pharis for the art, maybe Rokudenashi Blues and GTO for something less gory, Naru Taru for female empowerement and fucked up story, for pure fighting shounen with kickass females, Oh! great's Tenjho Tenge isn't too bad, neither is Ken Akamatsu's Negima, though lacking in the darkness department. Thinking about it, Kia Asamiya's Silent Möbius has also lots of similarities with Claymore, though it's SF. Inoue's Vagabond is also real good though on the realistic side.

Hmmm, yeah, lots of stories to enjoy around here, and all of them have their flaws, doesn't mean they are unreadable or that one shouldn't recognize what doesn't work for him.

Anyway, even if it's not fantasy hack and slash with female protagonists, if you don't know them, check the mangas in the first list, they are worth it.


@Sleepy Speculator: I though you knew I sacrificed babies to you daily so you would grant me enlightenment, yet I see you refused to grant me your absolute knowledge