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Old 2014-03-17, 10:00   Link #11901
hakazee
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Originally Posted by Guest2 View Post
The author has tried to make it clear that enough magical talent can trump any combat experience a person has. How does years of experience in warfare help one stop people who can, from out of sight, use carbon dioxide to cause an explosion from within your own body or obliterate you with just a thought and the pull of a trigger? Think of it like a single veteran fighting a newly constructed missle. The missle has no combat experience but was created with every it naturally needs to effortlessly destroy the target it can find. Unless the veteran can use counterfire or defensive counters(counter magic) he can not stop the missle.
yeah Nationalism quite strong in this series.

the author make it clear who's the strongest country here.
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Old 2014-03-17, 10:38   Link #11902
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^ oh come on , let's not try to bring "that" topic here again, the strongest overall is the USNA, it's just that we don't see a lot of them, Lina is a greenhorn compared to Tatsuya. Again she is best suited for a being a frontliner, not very good at intelligence work
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Old 2014-03-17, 12:00   Link #11903
Riddam
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Originally Posted by Guest2 View Post
Well the whole point is that they are not just ‘high schoolers’ and are talented magicians and fighters that far surpass high schoolers. The author goes in to great detail to explain this several times and the whole fight is there as proof of how exceptionally talented in magical combat they are. The standard has been set, what's silly is dismissing these improtant facts when the author has taken time to show that the magical and combt talent of these few highschooler’s make them bad ass enough to stall and then take out one of the world’s strongest.

The author has tried to make it clear that enough magical talent can trump any combat experience a person has. How does years of experience in warfare help one stop people who can, from out of sight, use carbon dioxide to cause an explosion from within your own body or obliterate you with just a thought and the pull of a trigger? Think of it like a single veteran fighting a newly constructed missle. The missle has no combat experience but was created with every it naturally needs to effortlessly destroy the target it can find. Unless the veteran can use counterfire or defensive counters(counter magic) he can not stop the missle.
I just lose all energy arguing people on forums, it's hard to find anyone that can talk about any perceived faults of their favorite series in a reasonable manner. I mean, do you even understand what we're talking about here? Why exactly are you telling me that the author has explained this or that about whatever? What do I care about explanations about how strong anyone is? What you're doing is "justifying" the problem by explaining the problem. I'm telling you that I find it silly that high schoolers are able to repel an invading army of another nation. I'm not asking "why".

Years of warfare experience, means that you have years of experience in similar situations, which in turn means that you're prepared and you understand the optimal measures to take. Lu Gonghu was a magician as well.

Even your stuff about Lu Gonghu to Ultraviolet is just inane and you don't really understand or address the problem. You don't need to explain why he's so worthless, the problem is that he is, when we're led to believe different.
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Old 2014-03-17, 12:58   Link #11904
Ultragunner
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^ I too do think that the fights in Yokohama should have been a lot of difficult for our students. But again, I feel we would be ignoring the context of the novel if we just bend our thought in just that one direction (I'm not trying to sugar-coat the series here or anything).

For example, the students did not go head on with the invading force, they weren't trying to eliminate the enemies, they were just defending themselves, clearing a way to escape. the Yokohama incident was not a full scale invasion but a distraction to steal magic data. Not to mention, they almost succeeded in taking hostages from the thesis competition with the students being helpless like puppies....if not for Tatsuya.

Also, I think Guest2 and others are not just merely "justifying" the problem, they are explaining it
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Old 2014-03-17, 14:12   Link #11905
Guest2
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Originally Posted by Riddam View Post
I just lose all energy arguing people on forums, it's hard to find anyone that can talk about any perceived faults of their favorite series in a reasonable manner. I mean, do you even understand what we're talking about here? Why exactly are you telling me that the author has explained this or that about whatever? What do I care about explanations about how strong anyone is? What you're doing is "justifying" the problem by explaining the problem. I'm telling you that I find it silly that high schoolers are able to repel an invading army of another nation. I'm not asking "why".

Years of warfare experience, means that you have years of experience in similar situations, which in turn means that you're prepared and you understand the optimal measures to take. Lu Gonghu was a magician as well.

Even your stuff about Lu Gonghu to Ultraviolet is just inane and you don't really understand or address the problem. You don't need to explain why he's so worthless, the problem is that he is, when we're led to believe different.
Yeah the novel has faults, but I don't agree your complaint is one of them. It comes down to you disagree with the fiction the author has created. Which is quite silly since it is fiction. Your supposed to suspend your disbelief. I have tried to point out what details the author has given that you are overlooking but it seems that that doesn't satisfy you.

Saying that they are high schoolers and that Lu should have been prepared for all of the unexpected is ridiculous, since they have been stated not to be just 'high schoolers' and no one can be prepared for the unexpected in a world full of unqiue and closely guarded magic abilities. No soldier in the real world can be fully prepared for the unexpected, why asume a magic world would be different? Even Tatsuya fell to a sniper, just like any veteran could.

I could understand if you actually said he he did not last long enough for a proper powerful antagonist. But why you believe the single label of one of the strongest close combat magi-soldiers means he should be able beat the special characters the author created who have been practising their magic for years and be able to somehow counter long range magical sniping, when his talent is stated to be only in CQC, is beyond me. Especially when powerful magician's are stated to be rare, so him actually previously encountering a powerful magician like Mayumi would have been very unlikely. What comparison you are using that makes your belief in such so strong, I cannot understand.

Last edited by Guest2; 2014-03-17 at 14:27.
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Old 2014-03-17, 14:49   Link #11906
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@ Guest2: I think your wrong on both cases, but I honestly can't be bothered to further explain on my posts since im basing my arguments from the novel and it holds no meaning if the person im debating/arguing agaisnt refuses to accept them and twists it around.
@ Riddam: I wouldn't bother, theres no convincing.
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Old 2014-03-17, 15:29   Link #11907
Riddam
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Originally Posted by Guest2 View Post
Yeah the novel has faults, but I don't agree your complaint is one of them. It comes down to you disagree with the fiction the author has created. Which is quite silly since it is fiction. Your supposed to suspend your disbelief. I have tried to point out what details the author has given that you are overlooking but it seems that that doesn't satisfy you.

Saying that they are high schoolers and that Lu should have been prepared for all of the unexpected is ridiculous, since they have been stated not to be just 'high schoolers' and no one can be prepared for the unexpected in a world full of unqiue and closely guarded magic abilities. No soldier in the real world can be fully prepared for the unexpected, why asume a magic world would be different? Even Tatsuya fell to a sniper, just like any veteran could.

I could understand if you actually said he he did not last long enough for a proper powerful antagonist. But why you believe the single label of one of the strongest close combat magi-soldiers means he should be able beat the special characters the author created who have been practising their magic for years and be able to somehow counter long range magical sniping, when his talent is stated to be only in CQC, is beyond me. Especially when powerful magician's are stated to be rare, so him actually previously encountering a powerful magician like Mayumi would have been very unlikely. What comparison you are using that makes your belief in such so strong, I cannot understand.
I don't disagree with the fiction, I simply don't think that it's good (in this instance). These details you have given are simply some of the reason I don't think it's good.
You're talking about suspension of disbelief, as if anyone who enjoys the series isn't automatically doing that. For me however some of the stuff that happened in the Yokohama arc was just too lopsided and uninspiring, when it had the potential to be more.

No one can expect the unexpected, that why it's called that. What experience means here, is simply that the scope of what you can expect is much bigger. As a close quarter combat specialist the first thing you address is your vulnerability to ranged combat. And the fact that I'm calling them high schoolers here is just to refer that they're inexperienced and young regardless of their skill.

Lu Gonghu is one of the best combatants in the Asian alliance and a S-rank operative, I'd warrant that should be enough. Mayumi isn't even the best in first high. And none of the other characters fighting him are really noteworthy, on a global or national scale.
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Old 2014-03-17, 15:31   Link #11908
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post

Huh, I don't remember that. But was Tatsuya complaining about in his ability to monitor her, or defend her? If the seal is the cause of it, I'm pretty sure he's been sealed longer than 3 years.

Also, tbe ability to track things he used Regrowth on, does that wear off, or does it last forever? Because he's used it on a lot of things which I imagine would make things more difficult for him the more he regrowths.
His complaint can be taken either way, but the key point is he was incapable of defending her from a distance. Hence the argument that he was kept in a different house than her isn't very plausible.

Quote:
I see, I see. I maintain, however that's the sort of thing you can get from a "report card" of sorts. In the U.S., we have parent-teacher conferences and in Japan, I believe teachers make home visits to discuss their children.

I can just imagine a teacher going to the Shiba house to enthuse about how wonderful and capable Tatsuya is. (I emphasize Shiba, because I'm pretty sure NO teacher goes to the Yotsuba house)

On a side-note though, given Tatsuya's personality, I really doubt he was popular. It sounds more like kids and teachers found a perfect gofer.
The way Miyuki crushes on Tatsuya suggests she had seen it first hand. Being told he's good at sports isn't the same as seeing him dominate all the other kids at school. As for his popularity, we already know from Tatsuya's behavior he isn't a gopher. He isn't popular in the sense he's very sociable, but rather he's the cool guy character trope. Everybody knows who he is and swoons a little when he interacts with him or her.
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Old 2014-03-17, 15:33   Link #11909
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@ Guest2: I believe the point they're trying to convey is not a denial of either the uniqueness of efficacy of magic in this world, but rather something that's been pointed out on several prior occasions: the author's style of exposition very much relies on describing something as seemingly impossible only to immediately follow that up with "zomg look they did what could not be done". In the specific example in question, it's essentially as if the heightened description of Lu Gonghu's prowess existed solely for the sake of making our main characters seem all the more amazing for having defeating him, and not for the sake of having made an antagonist who actually posed a threat.

I would say it's the author's tendency to write in this manner that provokes all the comments on nationalism; it's not anything outright so much as that he constantly portrays the rest of the world's elite as failing to attain to even the level of a bunch of high schoolers. That's not to say they're not anything special; if they weren't, we wouldn't be interested in them. That, however, is a far cry from saying that they stand unopposed in their world - a feeling that is strongly conveyed by the plot. Intentional or not, the idea that a few random high schoolers - Weeds, not Blooms, no less! - stand head and shoulders above the rest of the world's best and brightest is insulting, and thus constitutes the support for the aforementioned comments on nationalism. (Simply put, you could read the story as Japan saying: "Hey rest of the world, forget our real Magicians; even our kids could curbstomp you any time they feel like it!")
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Old 2014-03-17, 15:56   Link #11910
Zoks
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Originally Posted by Nandesuto View Post
@ Guest2: I believe the point they're trying to convey is not a denial of either the uniqueness of efficacy of magic in this world, but rather something that's been pointed out on several prior occasions: the author's style of exposition very much relies on describing something as seemingly impossible only to immediately follow that up with "zomg look they did what could not be done". In the specific example in question, it's essentially as if the heightened description of Lu Gonghu's prowess existed solely for the sake of making our main characters seem all the more amazing for having defeating him, and not for the sake of having made an antagonist who actually posed a threat.

I would say it's the author's tendency to write in this manner that provokes all the comments on nationalism; it's not anything outright so much as that he constantly portrays the rest of the world's elite as failing to attain to even the level of a bunch of high schoolers. That's not to say they're not anything special; if they weren't, we wouldn't be interested in them. That, however, is a far cry from saying that they stand unopposed in their world - a feeling that is strongly conveyed by the plot. Intentional or not, the idea that a few random high schoolers - Weeds, not Blooms, no less! - stand head and shoulders above the rest of the world's best and brightest is insulting, and thus constitutes the support for the aforementioned comments on nationalism. (Simply put, you could read the story as Japan saying: "Hey rest of the world, forget our real Magicians; even our kids could curbstomp you any time they feel like it!")
In the author's defense, he did make the point that the new generations of magicians tended to be stronger than the older ones, and the East Asian Alliance had a significant disadvantage when it came to magic ability. As for the Weeds taking on the elites, I want to point out that Erika, Leo, and Mikihiko shine the best in their fights against Japanese magicians, not the world class elites. They had help from the prodigies when they fought the world class elites. The way Tatsuya beats the world class elites is much more likely to incite nationalistic feelings, as in this case you have the very best of Japan crushing with ease the best of what the rest of the world has to offer.
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Old 2014-03-17, 16:11   Link #11911
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Going Bietchie Here:

Quote:
Bunch of Post

This is madness#!
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Old 2014-03-17, 16:42   Link #11912
Rasen
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Originally Posted by Zoks View Post
His complaint can be taken either way, but the key point is he was incapable of defending her from a distance. Hence the argument that he was kept in a different house than her isn't very plausible.
Tatsuya has already stated he and Miyuki lived under different roofs until they were 12, so plausible or not, is not the issue.

If the defense of Miyuki is an issue, just remember that at home, it's all Shiba/Yotsuba. So Miyuki was pretty darn safe.

Quote:
The way Miyuki crushes on Tatsuya suggests she had seen it first hand. Being told he's good at sports isn't the same as seeing him dominate all the other kids at school.
Mmm...I disagree. Miyuki didn't "crush" on Tatsuya until he brought her back to life and then proceeded to dominate the Asian Alliance. That being said, she most certainly could have seen Tatsuya in action (they are less than one year apart and as her guardian), it's very likely they were in the same class.

But she didn't appreciate what she saw. She just sees Tatsuya as someone who was strange who she couldn't understand, and while she intellectually understood why Fumiya might idolize Tatsuya, she herself did not.

My point wasn't that she only got information about Tatsuya via "report card," but that the way she describes him and what he can do is as though she got the information from a report card. As an indication of the "distance" between them.

Pretty sure much of vol 8 was devoted to her going "Tatsuya is a strange tool I don't understand" and that she should do her best to REAAAALLY look down on him as is proper for a Yotsuba.

Quote:
As for his popularity, we already know from Tatsuya's behavior he isn't a gopher. He isn't popular in the sense he's very sociable, but rather he's the cool guy character trope. Everybody knows who he is and swoons a little when he interacts with him or her.
This part is open for interpretation, but I imagine Tatsuya has had standing orders his whole life to not cause problems. On top of which, he just doesn't get angry. So, remembering that before the events of vol 8, he's just an elementary/middle school kid. The kinds of things people would bother him about are cleaning up classrooms, putting together displays, and being on a sports team. Maybe a question about homework.

They'd ask Tatsuya, and because he who doesn't really get angry or irritated but knows he shouldn't cause problems, stand out in any spectacular way, or create enemies, just goes "ok."

In his highschool years, Tatsuya isn't a gofer by nature, which we can see in how he tries not to take part in activities that would make him stand out. (student council, disciplinary committee) But once he's agreed to do something (usually because of Miyuki or peer pressure), he does his best.

Come to think of it, I can't think of a single thing that he has outright refused to do when asked, so far in his highschool life. He's tried, but in the end.... IIRC, he ended up doing all the paperwork for the Disciplinary Committee, for both Mari and Kanon's terms (when he was a member)

Last edited by Rasen; 2014-03-17 at 17:10.
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Old 2014-03-17, 20:48   Link #11913
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I'd probably be a lot happier with the series if Tatsuya had a kryptonite. Some weakness that he must avoid at all costs. So far his only weakness is his sister and a tactical class little sister is more of a +. If there was some way for batman to fight superman in this series I guess. For instance the idea of cast jamming could be expanded on to say Tatsuya can't heal and can only use physical abilities while under its effect. This would occasionally put Tatsuya in a real pinch against non magicians. Well that's just one path but it's pretty clear that the only reason anyone has ever had a chance against Tatsuya is that he is under the effect of limiters and intentionally holding back in most cases.
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Old 2014-03-17, 21:12   Link #11914
azziz
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Red face

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Originally Posted by Guest2 View Post
Yeah the novel has faults, but I don't agree your complaint is one of them. It comes down to you disagree with the fiction the author has created. Which is quite silly since it is fiction. Your supposed to suspend your disbelief. I have tried to point out what details the author has given that you are overlooking but it seems that that doesn't satisfy you.

Saying that they are high schoolers and that Lu should have been prepared for all of the unexpected is ridiculous, since they have been stated not to be just 'high schoolers' and no one can be prepared for the unexpected in a world full of unqiue and closely guarded magic abilities. No soldier in the real world can be fully prepared for the unexpected, why asume a magic world would be different? Even Tatsuya fell to a sniper, just like any veteran could.

I could understand if you actually said he he did not last long enough for a proper powerful antagonist. But why you believe the single label of one of the strongest close combat magi-soldiers means he should be able beat the special characters the author created who have been practising their magic for years and be able to somehow counter long range magical sniping, when his talent is stated to be only in CQC, is beyond me. Especially when powerful magician's are stated to be rare, so him actually previously encountering a powerful magician like Mayumi would have been very unlikely. What comparison you are using that makes your belief in such so strong, I cannot understand.
what anoyed me wasn't lu,but the other nineteen of the 20 elite force who were defetead off-screen by only three high school student withouth even one injury:none seem to remember about them
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Old 2014-03-18, 01:01   Link #11915
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Originally Posted by pampz21 View Post
Going Bietchie Here:



This is madness#!
hahahaha. I'm not even sure why this topic is going so strong. It's like they're upset over things that make up the foundation of this series in general. If this series was different or the characters weren't so OP it'd be like a completely different series rather than the one whose thread grows so many pages a day.

I really think the "power levels" or whatever need time to balance out over the course of the next few arcs and that's it.
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Old 2014-03-18, 02:31   Link #11916
Ultraviolet X
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Originally Posted by anonfr View Post
hahahaha. I'm not even sure why this topic is going so strong. It's like they're upset over things that make up the foundation of this series in general. If this series was different or the characters weren't so OP it'd be like a completely different series rather than the one whose thread grows so many pages a day.

I really think the "power levels" or whatever need time to balance out over the course of the next few arcs and that's it.
That is the appeal, but there are things that are just overblown. The big thing going on with Lu Gonghu, its pretty much like Naodesuto said. It seems he was simply put into the story and had his prowess exageratted simply so he could be continually beaten and prove how strong the cast are. Normally you would think somone like him with his magic prowess and combat experience should thrash students, no matter how powerfull they might be. Hes one of the Top Ten CQC magic specialist in the world and a S-rank operative, after all. There should be no issue of magic power or combat experience on his side. Not to mention the regular soldiers being treated as flies by students. Even the Magic-Equipped Battalion members (All of which are high class magicians) took damages and fatal wounds from them, they simply were able to live because of Tatsuyas restoration magic. This was both before and after they all used the power suits, and after they all had the advantage of flight and experience on there side over the students, not to mention the armour of the suits. Theres also the point Azziz raised, which is true, and just rediculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azziz View Post
what anoyed me wasn't lu,but the other nineteen of the 20 elite force who were defetead off-screen by only three high school student withouth even one injury:none seem to remember about them
For the fighting part the factors why Tatsuya could win

Masaki
Tatsuya's restoration magic
Masaki not reacting when Tatsuya got up
Tatsuya seeing the opening and using it

Btw, Masaki actually broke the rules here so he would have been disqualified anyway.

Lina
Tatsuya's restoration magic
Lina being naive, and not going for the kill instantly when he refused to come in quietly
Tatsuya using it to his advantage

Im basically saying here, that all these factors played a part in his win. If just one of these didn't happen, any single one, he wouldn't win the way he did. All factors played an equal part.


Anyways, im not going to expand on either subject anymore. I will keep my silence on the matter.

Last edited by Ultraviolet X; 2014-03-18 at 05:34. Reason: Grammer corrections
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Old 2014-03-18, 02:51   Link #11917
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hahahaha. I'm not even sure why this topic is going so strong. It's like they're upset over things that make up the foundation of this series in general. If this series was different or the characters weren't so OP it'd be like a completely different series rather than the one whose thread grows so many pages a day.

I really think the "power levels" or whatever need time to balance out over the course of the next few arcs and that's it.
This is blasphemy#!

is what they call it my friend#!

Man I wish Tatsuya would make cool quotes when they were at war.... like:
Give them Nothing but Take away from them Everything!
Or
Today we dine in hell!
or
Lu Gungho
one of the Top Ten CQC magic specialist in the world...
Ill put his name to the test.

Only good quote he said is:
Quote:
"—Who are you?"

The question came from the man before him.

To be able to climb up here — and not using any orthodox method at that since he took the odd approach of leaping between the walls of skyscrapers. He was definitely a man of considerable skill.

"JSDF 101 Independent Magic-Equipped Battalion Special Lieutenant, Oguro Ryuuya."

"What?"

The man — Inspector Chiba Toshikazu, didn't expect Tatsuya to frankly answer his question.
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Last edited by pampz21; 2014-03-18 at 03:19.
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Old 2014-03-18, 03:41   Link #11918
anonfr
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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet X View Post
That is the appeal, but there are things that are just overblown. The big thing going on with Lu Gonghu, its pretty much like Naodesuto said. It seems he was simply put into the story and had his prowess exageratted simply so he could be continually beaten and prove how strong the cast are. Normally you would think somone like him with his magic prowess and combat experience should thrash students, no matter how powerfull they might be. Hes one of the Top Ten CQC magic specialist in the world, after all. There should be no issue of magic power or combat experience on his side. Not to mention the regular soldiers being treated as flies by students. Even the Magic Equiped Batallion members took damages and fatal wounds from them, they simply were able to live because of Tatsuyas restoration magic. This was both before and after they all used the power suits, and after they all had the advantage of flight and experience on there side over the students, not to mention the armour of the suits. Then theres the point Azziz raised, which is true, and just rediculous.
I understand what you mean, afterall you always explain things so well and I appreciate you for that.

Though I've said before, I agree Lu was only a plot device and nothing more, but maybe he's also a sort of lead in. He's one of the best, but he got taken out through teamwork of students from prestigious families more or less.

This sets a standard for what the main cast is capable of. A sort of benchmark of comparison. From now on, the new baddies have to be badder than this guy.

A good thing is, not every powerful magician is well known, obviously some of them are kept under wraps without much of a reputation. This is another standard that's already been set. Tatsuya himself is a great example of that. There's 50 SC Magicians but only around 13 are known and others are only speculated, this can be another good example.

What if Lu Gonghu is considered one of the top 10 magic specialists that are publicized, and there's actually 100 more stronger than him that are practically unknown. 100 may be an exaggeration but hyperbole is about the point!

The point is, the unbalanced power structure between the main cast and it's antagonists can be fixed. The author can easily introduce new people to knock them down a peg, he can easily introduce ways to make the cast even stronger. Every volume from admission to the vampire arc has been about wrapping our heads around exactly how powerful the cast is and what they're capable of. The standard has been set, we now know how high the bar is. Now there's a complete and thorough understanding of that. Now, that understanding can be tested, the standard can be broken by people setting the bar higher.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pampz21 View Post
This is blasphemy#!

is what they call it my friend#!

Man I wish Tatsuya would make cool quotes when they were at war.... like:
Give them Nothing but Take away from them Everything!
Or
Today we dine in hell!
or
Lu Gungho
one of the Top Ten CQC magic specialist in the world...
Ill put his name to the test.

Only good quote he said is:
hahaha I can only imagine how hilariously out of place those lines would be.
I feel like his line was pretty bad ass in it's own way. Tatsuya isn't a guy who brags. He states the obvious and disappears. Like Batman.

I'm sure he'll say something witty at least once.
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Old 2014-03-18, 04:42   Link #11919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pampz21 View Post
This is blasphemy#!

is what they call it my friend#!

Man I wish Tatsuya would make cool quotes when they were at war.... like:
Give them Nothing but Take away from them Everything!
Or
Today we dine in hell!
or
Lu Gungho
one of the Top Ten CQC magic specialist in the world...
Ill put his name to the test.

Only good quote he said is:
He had one: "The enemy of (your) enemy is just another party" so badass
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Old 2014-03-18, 04:45   Link #11920
anonfr
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Originally Posted by fujin of shadows View Post
RANDOM THOUGHT!!!!

Miyuki doesn't have a monopoly anymore.....

If you are pampz21, please do not look!!!!!

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED

P.S. I'll erase this in an hour!!!!!!!

Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
MAN I was so hyped up with the big warning label and all! Then the spoiler after doing so much mental preparation, and it was a broken image. I had to put it in my search engine.

Is that even Tatsuya? cause.. That just isn't Tatsuya. It's the other guy I won't name to keep a spoiler in tact.

I don't know why Miyuki has bearing in a ship that's not TatsXerika. If she cared, she'd be happy. Happy another bitch has stepped off her onii-sama.
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action, fantasy, harem, incest, magic, mahouka, rettousei, school life, shounen, siblings

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