Aquarion EVOL - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[mayumi]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Apollo left her kids. Chibi and the other orphans.

You know what I mean . She should pass down the good gene of herself and Apollonius to someone down the line. Compared to who Mikono has become because she is a reincarnation of Celiane.
Like say Silvia's descendants showed hope to the world by not caring for reincarnation etc

[Vena]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

>Vena
In ep 5 Amata could get away from Kagura using his wings because Kagura didn't use his power. The Detachment Wings worked once, but we never learned if they would've worked a second time because Cayenne intervened and shot Kagura. And the Wings of Glory didn't fail as much as Kagura needed to take Mikono away for plot reasons and kicking Amata's ass again was the only way to do it. (If it was important that it failed we would've gotten a longer scene of it failing, instead of just a scene with Amata and Mikono getting up on that roof, presumably after having fell down.)

I meant failed in that Wings of Glory was stopped by Sakasama while Detachment Wings (for what we saw) suppressed Sakasama, but the two sets of wings operate on completely different principles for Amata. (As for Ep.5 I meant simply the change of roles, not the use of powers. In Ep. 5 Amata charges Kagura and gets Mikono, in Ep. 22 its Kagura who charges Amata and gets Mikono, no powers in either scene until after the fact.) There's a lot of this back and forth going on and what with Yin/Yang suddenly becoming an important plot point, I don't think these were unintentional contrasts. (And, what Fudo said when Amata was doing Detachment Wings seems like a detail that's a bit too important too forget, especially since it didn't seem to go anywhere at that time just like the donuts, and now we see just how far those donuts went.)

[Radik]

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

The problem I still have with the dog thing is that it kinda makes Amata's character even weaker. In episode 22 he said that he loves Mikono for her. Not because of all this reincarnation crap, but the dog thing just makes that meaningless because he loves her because it's fated, not because of his own free will and affection for her, which makes his whole quest to fight fate pointless.

I don't entirely agree that it made him even weaker since his claim that he was fighting fate never seemed to hold much value anyway. That moment in episode 5 where they were looking at the sunset, Mikono told Amata how weird it was that, despite only meeting days ago, she felt like she had already known him for a very long time. Amata said he didn't think it was weird and that he felt they were destined to meet. So Amata totally believed in his "destiny" initially, and only conveniently started "fighting fate" when Kagura showed up. Not that it really matters much, but it shows that his initial feelings for Mikono were probably already influenced by their encounters in their previous life. So far, it seems the only one who's really been fighting fate is Zessica.

[Destined_Fate]

And we all know what has been happening to Zessica because she's the only one fighting fate...

[miketyson]

Originally Posted by Vena

I'd say that this revelation showed where fate was actually being fought and where it isn't. Pollon had wait thousands of years on a slim hope and wish that he'd be reincarnated with Celianne and that she'd notice him, subverting the intended story of Apollonius and Celianne much as Apollonius had subverted his and Touma's intended story. (In the case of Apollonius, certain outstanding details (perhaps guilt) kept him from reincarnating at all.)

I'm still fighting the "fighting fate" idea. Perhaps I'm fated to lose? But in any case, I see it as less "who was/wasn't fighting fate got shifted around" and more "there was never really any fate to fight at all" (at least for Pollon/Apollo and Silvia). If Apollonius never reincarnated as someone Silvia could meet and fall in love with there's not really any fate they're fighting, to my eyes. Pollon asked the universe for a favor and got it, the rest was between Apollo and Silvia and isn't really fated or not fated, just something that happened.

Or that's how I'd like to see it, at least.

Originally Posted by Vena

In the case of EVOL, you have the opposite going on because (1.) Pollon never finished his story, dying to save the world, (2.) Celianne clinging to the cycles for an apology, and (3.) the promise from 12,000 years ago. Amata (the whole, or either part) and Mikono are following the steps that fate laid out, but no matter how you cut it, there is a stark difference between the case of Pollon -> Celianne/Apollonius, and Amagura/Mikono. The issue stands, of course, that as its set with Amata AND Kagura existing simultaneously, you could end up with a situation where you have a conclusion that satisfies fate and one that defies it, sending a very strange message. (Especially with the Touma background example of why clinging onto the past is a bad idea.)

Well, even here I love how the Pollon story has added a wrinkle. Superficially the situation with Amagura and Mikono seems fated, but is it really? Perhaps the fated thing to do is to once fall in love with someone in the present (Zessica is crossing her fingers on that one ), perhaps the fated thing is to consummate the relationship fate got in the way of last time.

This is why the more I think about it the more I like it: you can't really escape from *considering* the role of fate in all this, but at least EVOL now seems deliberately constructed to make it impossible to pick out a clear statement of how fate does (and doesn't) relate to the situation at hand. (Edit: as opposed to before, when it just seemed vague and incoherent due to bad writing and bad ideas, now it seems well-designed specifically to avoid a coherent take on the whole thing, which I at least can get behind.)

Perhaps: in the end you can't escape fate, but you'd be foolish to think fate is something definite and knowable, and so what else can you do but be afraid, but not give up, and just keep on living your life?

It's especially the case when splitting Amata into Amata and Kagura opens the way to having the cake and eating the cake.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by miketyson

It's especially the case when splitting Amata into Amata and Kagura opens the way to having the cake and eating the cake.

It may end up having to be this because you have an awkward split.

Zessica's the peculiar wrinkle in all of this, particularly in this episode and, also, what was shown of the past by the EVOL back in Ep. 16. It showed us an Apollo and Sylvia promising to reunite 12,000 years later (now) which seems to have dealt a nigh-killing blow to Zessica's hopes because, as far as that pairing is concerned in-universe, they are destined to reunite and Zessica is an outsider. (Its like a very strange change on the Pollon -> Apollonius/Celianne where we had Zessica trying to do as Pollon did for the next life but getting Mykage-ed.)

In fact, there's an ironic twist in all of this aside from the above said in (). Zessica's initial hope for winning Amata by having fate "take" Mikono away has now come back and punched her in the gut by "giving" Mikono to Amata. And, of course, none of this would complete without further noting that she herself didn't want her hope to come from something like fate and told Amata to fight. The sequence: "You'll get crushed by fate!" to "I was wrong and even it screws me over, fight fate!" to "I've been crushed by fate... and Mykage stole my body to play out his reenactment of 12,000 years ago (moar fate)."

It's all some cluster**** of dramatic and/or tragic irony that you'd expect from a Shakespearean play.

If not for Zessica, you could easily resolve this one way or the other on fate (though probably leaning more towards satisfying the past promise), but with Zessica, stuff just gets confusing.

[miketyson]

Vena: that scene in 16 really does come to mind, actually. If it wasn't, in fact, wrong for Silvia to fall for Pollon -- and I think being shown it in that context implies it's not wrong, unless the Aquarion really is a lot angrier about a few things than we've been lead to believe thus far -- then it wouldn't be wrong for Amata to fall for Zessica this time around, either, I don't think.

Not saying it's going to happen, or that if it did happen that it wouldn't be an asspull, but there's a definitely a bit of a different way Zessica could think about what the Aquarion chose to show her. I'm unsure if she's meant to eventually figure it out, if we the audience are, or it's just an oversight, but with recent revelations what she's shown isn't exactly the story she's reacting as if she thinks it is (now there's a mouthful, ).

Edit: to sum it up: what's good for Pollon is good for Zessica, and vice versa, especially since their positions are at least somewhat similar.

Edit 2: I wonder if we can make a case that every time someone's brought up fate it's only worked against them?

From memory: Amata's pickup line about meeting Mikono being fate in episode 5 is almost* immediately* followed by Kagura showing up to interact with Mikono. Come to think of it, Mikono *wanting* to believe what he said about their meeting being fate actually takes on an ominous double meaning in hindsight...ouch, that's actually quite clever.

Zessica obviously wanted it to be Mikono's fate to wind up with Kagura to free up Amata for herself, and look where it got her.

Are there any others? If it's just these two it is a pattern but not a particularly strong one.

[kuromitsu]

FWIW Celiane didn't reincarnate as Mikono because she wanted to apologize (I almost wrote "apollogize"...), she just reincarnated because apparently there's this 12000 year reincarnation circle going on. Also, while we're on the topic of apologizing, note that Mikono wanted to apologize to Kagura, not Amata. I think this further points toward Kagura being in fact the "A/Pollo" part that is not present in Amata anymore (except for the wings). The "essence" of the reincarnation, in a way. What I mean is, Silvia was Celiane but she was also Silvia. I think this is what might have happened here: Amata was Apollo but also Amata, but then Mykage removed Apollo from him so now he's just Amata.

I don't hold out hope for the return of the Detachment Wings, though if it does return it would be very interesting to see what they do with it, after all the point of that exercise was Amata breaking free from the past that bound him. Maybe that's why Kagura's power didn't work on him while Amata did that, because Amata unknowingly "rejected" him. (Btw I just noticed that the kanji for Wings of Glory is a variation on Deatchment Wing: former is 金剛不惑翼 and the latter is 無執不惑翼. They both have the "not led astray" part, except one emphasizes the detachment and the other... well, I suppose we should go for the most mystical meaning here. ^^;; )

Re: fate, I won't even start seriuosly speculating about this, but I do think that fate with respect to Amata & Kagura & Mikono lies with Apollo and Silvia and not Pollon and Celiane. Dog loved girl, girl loved someone else. 12000 years passed, dog finally got the girl and they pretty much wrote their own love story. 12000 years pass again and now dog wants girl based on said love story, girl now realizes that it was the dog back then (...or something?? please don't say that Mikono was begging forgiveness for not noticing that a dog was in love with her 24000 years ago, I mean, really), but also recognizes him as the guy she loved back then. Add the Amagura twist and Zessica, and here we are.

(Meanwhile, girl's original lover is a mecha so that route is pretty much a dead end.)

>miketyson
I always interpreted Amata's "it's destiny" line in ep 5 as something he just said without knowing what he was talking about (in the light of recent revelations it might have come from his subconscious, or maybe he's just a tennentarashi ^^;; which might be the case, despite his usual awkwardness he does have his moments), and its purpose was to have an ironic echo when the actual destined partner (=Kagura) arrives.

Btw, while Amata's attempts to further his relationship with Mikono were regularly thwarted by various things, Kagura is the most consistent offender: first in the tower, then while Amata was trying to ask Mikono out, and then during the movie night (btw that episode also had a destiny theme going on). Also, one of the previews had Kagura telling Mikono she shouldn't struggle against fate - whatever this means in the light of the new information.

[Destined_Fate]

Not exactly considering things are happening differently here. Pollon's situation is far different than Zessica's(And not just the gay angel taking over her body) and fate wasn't in the way when Pollon first fell in love with Celiane. Than there's the part that Apollonius never even tried to get in the way of his Dog wanting to make his girlfriend a dog lover in "that" way in the following reincarnation cycles. So Pollon never had to deal with anything that Zessica is dealing with because the one that was "destined" for Celiane never got in the way of the current reincarnations love attempts. While the reincarnated lovers, still say Silvia was tricked, are back together and actively trying to get together which is getting in the way of the outsider, Zessica, from getting with the one she loves.

There are similiarities but no. What's good for Pollon isn't good for Zessica which we have been shown very clearly how bad this reincarnation business has been to poor Zessica. Than there's the whole fighting fate theme which makes things even gloomier for Zessica even if she got to make her wish.

That would be stupid if they use the split as the excuse saying "Hey, the part that was destined for Mikono was actually ripped out into that thing that shouldn't exist! Which suddenly makes Amata totally legit in his fight against fate because that fate was taken from him and given to his fake. Totally".

[mayumi]

Apollo never cared about fate or destiny or things of that sort. The reason why making Apollo being Pollon's reincarnation sucks is because they make it out like Apollo was some sort of sad sap who soooooo wanted Celiane's love etc when he really wasn't. The only time Apollo and Silvia really clicked as a couple was at the end when Sirius went away. Aside from that Apollo and Silvia were comrades but he was never trying to woo Silvia or any such thing.

Because of the promise of never forgetting silvia's scent and messing with Touma's dark half we got Mykage splitting Amata into Kagura and Amata. Then Mykage forcefully drilled shit like fate and destiny and how he is fated to be with Silvia into him. If Kagura was not split from Amata, would there be a chance that Complete Amata would be not so obsessed like Apollo was.
He would still court Mikono as Complete Amata but I don't believe for once genesis Apollo would say things like "we are fated" or "you are my destiny". That is just not Apollo.

I am sad that because Kagura exists that people will think Apollo was some sort of sad sap, sooooo in love with Celiane's light half of soul. Apollo loved Silvia not Celiane. He was not obssessed with fate or any such nonsense. He cared about people around him like his friends with Baron and he requested Silvia take care of them. His friends at Deva etc.

This whole fate setup with Amata and Kagura is pretty much fabricated by Mykage and Zen. Genesis Apollo would say screw them.

[kuromitsu]

^Which is one of the reasons why I'm in the "Evol is actually an AU, the only backstory is what Fudou and Crea told in this episode, and it has zero canonical effect on the Sousei no Aquarion TV series" camp. (I don't care for the OVAs.)

I wasn't invested in the Apollo x Silvia/Apollonius x Celiane romance whatsoever, but one of the high points of the plot (that I wasn't too fond of either) was Apollo basically going "I don't give a damn about my previous life." He just wanted to save Baron and the kids, and help the Deava gang once they've become friends.

Actually, they could've tackled this with Amata and Kagura, with Kagura going on about "reincarnation!!1!! destiny!!1!" and Amata going "who the hell cares," except of course they handled Amata badly. :/ And the only time he got to say something along those lines it was not directly about himself. (Then again, back then he didn't know all the details.)

[miketyson]

Oh man I wish I'd looked up 金剛 sooner, I guess that's I get for being lazy again and assuming the supplied English caption was reasonable. Thanks for bringing it up and motivating me to actually go look that one up, kuromitsu.

Also: kuromitsu, how can you even consider Amata not being some sort of tennentarashi? Just look at what going on with Zessica, . Can it possibly get more tennen than that?

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by miketyson

Also: kuromitsu, how can you even consider Amata not being some sort of tennentarashi? Just look at what going on with Zessica, . Can it possibly get more tennen than that?

Tennen yes, but IMO with Zessica he lacked the tarashi part. ^^;; Maybe because they haven't actually talked a lot apart from battles, Zessica tended to angst from afar.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by miketyson

I wonder if we can make a case that every time someone's brought up fate it's only worked against them?

I wonder if there isn't a pattern, at least as far as Amata and Zessica are concerned:
Amata:

• Our meeting was fated.
• I don't believe in fate!
• Oh no, now I am an outsider to 12,000 years.
• Screw fate!
• I am fated... reaction pending.

Zessica:

• Fate is giving me a chance.
• No, I shouldn't accept this. Amata, don't accept fate!
• Fate is going to hurt Amata.
• Amata is a part of fate, I'm an outsider interfering on 12,000 years.
• My body has been stolen to reenact 12,000 years ago... more pending.

At this point, I see only two logical resolutions. Like I said, it could all be tragic or dramatic irony: Amata rejects fate (as far as he was aware then, his biggest obstacle) and opts to fight it which proves to ultimately be counter productive, Zessica rejects fate (as far as she was aware then, her only chance) which proves to ultimately be what she'd need but is crushed by fate's revelation.

Kagura and Mikono don't have this same pattern, they've been largely one tracked on the whole fate thing (this may or may not be due to Mikono's inability to open her mouth to talk about Kagura with anyone).

[miketyson]

Aside from those two, the only other explicit tempting-fate thing I can think of was in episode 16 when Cayenne said it'd be Amata's destiny to lose that battle, actually made me laugh pretty good ("where will you come from? above? from the left? from the right")...then after much shenanigans -- inspired by Zessica's confession, actually?!?! -- the mugen comes up from below (the one option he hadn't named, ) and triggers that big explosion.

But definitely, when you set it up that way they have parallel arcs on that topic. Not identical, but parallel, and certainly similar.

I thought more characters had mentioned fate in some sort of "tempting fate" setting but I'm not thinking of any. In any case, I still think it's pushing them to the fate-indifference route more than anything, or at least I hope it is. There's something on the tip of my tongue that I'll come back and post if I can remember what it was.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by miketyson

I thought more characters had mentioned fate in some sort of "tempting fate" setting but I'm not thinking of any. In any case, I still think it's pushing them to the fate-indifference route more than anything, or at least I hope it is. There's something on the tip of my tongue that I'll come back and post if I can remember what it was.

Andy tempted fate but in a comical, one shot manner with his death flags claim which ended up hitting MIX instead. Mikono may have tempted fate with "I'll tell you later," and Cayenne is the odd ball out because as his visions seem to never actually fail in coming true but they take on different meanings. The rotting one eyed giant was Jin dying but saving the day, for instance.

[miketyson]

Vena: I meant explicitly bringing up or discussing unmei vis-a-vis themselves, not the general idea, sorry I wasn't clear about that. With a broader definition there're a few more people who tempted fate in their own way, though .

[Thess]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Actually, they could've tackled this with Amata and Kagura, with Kagura going on about "reincarnation!!1!! destiny!!1!" and Amata going "who the hell cares," except of course they handled Amata badly. :/ And the only time he got to say something along those lines it was not directly about himself. (Then again, back then he didn't know all the details.)

Amata obviously cares. He fixated on Mikono when she first said that 12.000 years cheesy line. He's not as obsessed as Kagura in the 'fate' angle because he thought he was cockblocked until recently and because he didn't have this drilled into him since he was young by Mykage. In my opinion, his issues are more in a subconscious level than Kagura. It's definitely there, but more subtle. They aren't like Apollo, sadly, who couldn't care less.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Tennen yes, but IMO with Zessica he lacked the tarashi part. ^^;; Maybe because they haven't actually talked a lot apart from battles, Zessica tended to angst from afar.

To be fair, nobody seems to talk a lot in this series. Other than Shrade and Cayenne or Andy and Amata. It's one of its biggest weakness.

[mayumi]

I wonder if Kagura, poor guy even has the remote possibility of waking up from Mykage's grasp and make a decision that is his own. Unfortunately I don't see this happening. He will provably just merge with Amata or is a goner.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by mayumi

I wonder if Kagura, poor guy even has the remote possibility of waking up from Mykage's grasp and make a decision that is his own. Unfortunately I don't see this happening. He will provably just merge with Amata or is a goner.

They pretty much treat him as a walking plot device